All Things Gopher Players Appeals Process

Title IX in the '70s was never meant to deal with circumstances like these. I think its application to these areas came from Congress or the fed bureaucracy in this century - don't know which president signed on to it.
 

I've been out of town for almost a week and not paying attention, and I'm certainly not going to wade through 45 pages.

Are there any guesses as to when there might be an announcement?
 

I've been out of town for almost a week and not paying attention, and I'm certainly not going to wade through 45 pages.

Are there any guesses as to when there might be an announcement?

They have until Friday to announce. I haven't seen anything that says they might do it earlier, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
 

They have until Friday to announce. I haven't seen anything that says they might do it earlier, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Best to wait for Supreme Court nomination news... to hide it.
 

They have until Friday to announce. I haven't seen anything that says they might do it earlier, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Thanks. It was nice being away and staying away from social media and news sources.
 


Based on what I have seen from this department, and their desire for MAXIMUM press coverage, I am betting money the announcement is about 4 hours before the signing day social.

It was pretty obvious before that they used the announcement date effectively to draw the process out by stating the case toward the end of term, before the bowl game, yet too late for any actual proceedings. Don't be suprised if they are going to use the signing day event as a trigger for their next announcement.

It is a shame, but the EOAA president is more concerned about her P.R. than the welfare of the victim and the student.
 

Based on what I have seen from this department, and their desire for MAXIMUM press coverage, I am betting money the announcement is about 4 hours before the signing day social.

It was pretty obvious before that they used the announcement date effectively to draw the process out by stating the case toward the end of term, before the bowl game, yet too late for any actual proceedings. Don't be suprised if they are going to use the signing day event as a trigger for their next announcement.

It is a shame, but the EOAA president is more concerned about her P.R. than the welfare of the victim and the student.

That's as good a guess as any and as you say, would be within their standard M.O.
 





I am guessing Shenault and Winfield if cleared will be back.

Who knows what level of involvement Green got himself in. He'll be a third candidate in my book.

I am better off looking at tea leaves the way it is.

You don't know if Mark Coyle put in his two cents and whispered something into PJ Fleck's ears.
 

I don't know why people keep saying this, the University of Minnesota CANNOT have a rule on the student code of conduct that violates the Constitution.

So you cannot say, regardless of legal or consensual. . . you simply cannot say that. The University of Minnesota is a public institution in the United States, the Constitution still reigns supreme here. It literally cannot be "regardless of legal" or "regardless of consensual".

For whatever reason, some people have been refusing to believe me when I say this. I get it, you don't believe me. Ask yourself this, why would an EOAA appeal eventually reach Federal Court?

I do, and have been posting the same thing...a lot of posters just either don't get it or choose not to agree because it does not fit their argument.

Same with the preponderance threshold and how inadequate it is...fell on deaf ears until a couple days ago and then many posters began commenting on how unfair it is to have an evidence threshold so low. Somehow now that the appeals took place, they realize how it really is a "prove you are not guilty" situation.
 

I am guessing Shenault and Winfield if cleared will be back.

Who knows what level of involvement Green got himself in. He'll be a third candidate in my book.

I am better off looking at tea leaves the way it is.

You don't know if Mark Coyle put in his two cents and whispered something into PJ Fleck's ears.

Shenault's status is really the only one that shouldn't be in doubt. Even if his punishment remains, he can still play football on probation right?
 

I am guessing Shenault and Winfield if cleared will be back.

Who knows what level of involvement Green got himself in. He'll be a third candidate in my book.

I am better off looking at tea leaves the way it is.

You don't know if Mark Coyle put in his two cents and whispered something into PJ Fleck's ears.

Yep. If what's been reported on Winfield's actions is accurate, the case against him is extremely weak. I wonder about Green as well...if he in fact was not in the apartment, and his only contact with the accuser was when Djam brought her to that apartment before going to the one where the alleged assault occurred.
 



Fleck's home visit with the Winfield's plus their hiring of a private attorney must amount to something good or so we hope. Keeping my fingers crossed.

It seems like Djam was the key player in all these.
 

Fleck's home visit with the Winfield's plus their hiring of a private attorney must amount to something good or so we hope. Keeping my fingers crossed.

It seems like Djam was the key player in all these.

Could just be a case where Winfield ... has resources to get his own attorney / got some advice to do it.
 

I do, and have been posting the same thing...a lot of posters just either don't get it or choose not to agree because it does not fit their argument.

Same with the preponderance threshold and how inadequate it is...fell on deaf ears until a couple days ago and then many posters began commenting on how unfair it is to have an evidence threshold so low. Somehow now that the appeals took place, they realize how it really is a "prove you are not guilty" situation.

But specifically what part of the student code of conduct is unconstitutional? If you want to say the execution of discipline for student code of conduct violations is unconstitutional in this case then that is a totally different. Much different than saying the code itself is unconstitutional. That's why most cases like this that were taken to the actual court system have been based on irregularities in the execution of discipline, not the underlying code.

The preponderance of evidence threshold is the same standard as a civil case, which is basically what a code of conduct violation is since there are no criminal charges. It's not a "prove you aren't guilty" situation. Both sides have the same burden. It's a cage match.

Here is the official Student Code of Conduct: http://regents.umn.edu/sites/regents.umn.edu/files/policies/Student_Conduct_Code.pdf Feel free to point out the parts you think are unconstitutional. It's not that long so it shouldn't take too much time.
 

But specifically what part of the student code of conduct is unconstitutional? If you want to say the execution of discipline for student code of conduct violations is unconstitutional in this case then that is a totally different. Much different than saying the code itself is unconstitutional. That's why most cases like this that were taken to the actual court system have been based on irregularities in the execution of discipline, not the underlying code.

The preponderance of evidence threshold is the same standard as a civil case, which is basically what a code of conduct violation is since there are no criminal charges. It's not a "prove you aren't guilty" situation. Both sides have the same burden. It's a cage match.

Here is the official Student Code of Conduct: http://regents.umn.edu/sites/regents.umn.edu/files/policies/Student_Conduct_Code.pdf Feel free to point out the parts you think are unconstitutional. It's not that long so it shouldn't take too much time.

Another excellent post. It means nothing to throw around claims of unconstitutionality with out specific details.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

But specifically what part of the student code of conduct is unconstitutional? If you want to say the execution of discipline for student code of conduct violations is unconstitutional in this case then that is a totally different. Much different than saying the code itself is unconstitutional. That's why most cases like this that were taken to the actual court system have been based on irregularities in the execution of discipline, not the underlying code.

The preponderance of evidence threshold is the same standard as a civil case, which is basically what a code of conduct violation is since there are no criminal charges. It's not a "prove you aren't guilty" situation. Both sides have the same burden. It's a cage match.

Here is the official Student Code of Conduct: http://regents.umn.edu/sites/regents.umn.edu/files/policies/Student_Conduct_Code.pdf Feel free to point out the parts you think are unconstitutional. It's not that long so it shouldn't take too much time.

Based on these guy's explanation the law in these matters is far from settled. I'd encourage every lawyer, actual or armchair to read through it. From the FIRE paper:

https://www.thefire.org/fire-guides...mpus-full-text/#__RefHeading__2500_2127946742



The 2011 OCR mandates are not supported by prior court decisions. From the FIRE paper:


OCR’s mandate is in tension with Supreme Court rulings like Goss v. Lopez (1975) and Addington v. Texas (1979). In Goss, as discussed earlier in this Guide, the Court held that when “a person’s good name, reputation, honor, or integrity is at stake because of what the government is doing to him,” due process requires “precautions against unfair or mistaken findings of misconduct and arbitrary exclusion from school.” The Court made these observations about due process protections at the elementary and secondary school level, finding at least minimal requirements of due process necessary because disciplinary action “could seriously damage the students’ standing with their fellow pupils and their teachers as well as interfere with later opportunities for higher education and employment.” Given the increased likelihood of much further-reaching negative consequences for a college student found guilty of sexual harassment or sexual violence in a campus judicial proceeding, greater protections are required, not lesser.

And in Addington, the Court—“mindful that the function of legal process is to minimize the risk of erroneous decisions”—noted that an intermediate standard of proof (i.e., the clear and convincing standard) might properly be used “in civil cases involving allegations of fraud or some other quasi-criminal wrongdoing by the defendant.” The Court arrived at this conclusion because the “interests at stake in those cases are deemed to be more substantial than mere loss of money,” and using the clear and convincing standard “reduce the risk to the defendant of having his reputation tarnished erroneously by increasing the plaintiff’s burden of proof.” As FIRE pointed out in a May 2011 response to OCR’s “Dear Colleague” letter, college sexual assault hearings involve allegations of felony criminal conduct, and the interests implicated certainly go beyond the mere loss of money.

In the 2011 “Dear Colleague” letter, OCR argued that the preponderance of the evidence standard is appropriate for adjudicating sexual assault and sexual harassment claims because it is the same standard that federal courts use when deciding civil lawsuits, including civil rights lawsuits. But as FIRE and others have noted, the use of this low burden of proof in federal civil cases is counterbalanced by the many procedural safeguards provided to defendants in those cases—safeguards that aren’t present in campus cases. To provide just a few examples:

Defendants in civil trials have their hearings conducted by experienced and impartial judges.

Either party can ask a jury to determine findings of fact.

Either party may be represented by an attorney.

The rules of “discovery” allow each party to gather necessary evidence from the other side upon request.

Hearsay and other forms of unreliable evidence are typically excluded from the proceeding, and all testimony is given under sworn oath.

None of these protections are guaranteed in campus sexual assault hearings, rendering the comparison between the use of the preponderance of the evidence standard in civil court and campus hearings wholly inappropriate. And while defendants in civil lawsuits have the option to settle out of court and keep the matter private, students found guilty by campus tribunals have no such option, virtually guaranteeing that a negative outcome will have a lifelong effect.
 

It sure would be interesting to know who our "Deepthroat" in this scandal was. The investigative report leaked to KSTP proved to be the saving grace for the University in regards to swaying public opinion in their favor.
 

+1. Great stuff. You are saying what the silent majority is thinking. Tired of some wannabe obsessed lawyers giving their opinions.

The silent majority has always been a nice way of calling people sheep.
 

Based on these guy's explanation the law in these matters is far from settled. I'd encourage every lawyer, actual or armchair to read through it. From the FIRE paper:

https://www.thefire.org/fire-guides...mpus-full-text/#__RefHeading__2500_2127946742



The 2011 OCR mandates are not supported by prior court decisions. From the FIRE paper:


OCR’s mandate is in tension with Supreme Court rulings like Goss v. Lopez (1975) and Addington v. Texas (1979). In Goss, as discussed earlier in this Guide, the Court held that when “a person’s good name, reputation, honor, or integrity is at stake because of what the government is doing to him,” due process requires “precautions against unfair or mistaken findings of misconduct and arbitrary exclusion from school.” The Court made these observations about due process protections at the elementary and secondary school level, finding at least minimal requirements of due process necessary because disciplinary action “could seriously damage the students’ standing with their fellow pupils and their teachers as well as interfere with later opportunities for higher education and employment.” Given the increased likelihood of much further-reaching negative consequences for a college student found guilty of sexual harassment or sexual violence in a campus judicial proceeding, greater protections are required, not lesser.

And in Addington, the Court—“mindful that the function of legal process is to minimize the risk of erroneous decisions”—noted that an intermediate standard of proof (i.e., the clear and convincing standard) might properly be used “in civil cases involving allegations of fraud or some other quasi-criminal wrongdoing by the defendant.” The Court arrived at this conclusion because the “interests at stake in those cases are deemed to be more substantial than mere loss of money,” and using the clear and convincing standard “reduce the risk to the defendant of having his reputation tarnished erroneously by increasing the plaintiff’s burden of proof.” As FIRE pointed out in a May 2011 response to OCR’s “Dear Colleague” letter, college sexual assault hearings involve allegations of felony criminal conduct, and the interests implicated certainly go beyond the mere loss of money.

In the 2011 “Dear Colleague” letter, OCR argued that the preponderance of the evidence standard is appropriate for adjudicating sexual assault and sexual harassment claims because it is the same standard that federal courts use when deciding civil lawsuits, including civil rights lawsuits. But as FIRE and others have noted, the use of this low burden of proof in federal civil cases is counterbalanced by the many procedural safeguards provided to defendants in those cases—safeguards that aren’t present in campus cases. To provide just a few examples:

Defendants in civil trials have their hearings conducted by experienced and impartial judges.

Either party can ask a jury to determine findings of fact.

Either party may be represented by an attorney.

The rules of “discovery” allow each party to gather necessary evidence from the other side upon request.

Hearsay and other forms of unreliable evidence are typically excluded from the proceeding, and all testimony is given under sworn oath.

None of these protections are guaranteed in campus sexual assault hearings, rendering the comparison between the use of the preponderance of the evidence standard in civil court and campus hearings wholly inappropriate. And while defendants in civil lawsuits have the option to settle out of court and keep the matter private, students found guilty by campus tribunals have no such option, virtually guaranteeing that a negative outcome will have a lifelong effect.


Thanks. Posted the link months ago at the beginning and tried to get GHers to go and review. Tired of repeating myself every time this has come up. Bob is probably as well.
 


But specifically what part of the student code of conduct is unconstitutional? If you want to say the execution of discipline for student code of conduct violations is unconstitutional in this case then that is a totally different. Much different than saying the code itself is unconstitutional. That's why most cases like this that were taken to the actual court system have been based on irregularities in the execution of discipline, not the underlying code.

The preponderance of evidence threshold is the same standard as a civil case, which is basically what a code of conduct violation is since there are no criminal charges. It's not a "prove you aren't guilty" situation. Both sides have the same burden. It's a cage match.

Here is the official Student Code of Conduct: http://regents.umn.edu/sites/regents.umn.edu/files/policies/Student_Conduct_Code.pdf Feel free to point out the parts you think are unconstitutional. It's not that long so it shouldn't take too much time.

+ 100
 


See post #678...

read that stuff before. its not a settled issue of law either way. I have gone back and forth with a bunch of you about this repeatedly. the courts will settle it eventually. you think you're right, i think you are wrong....then generally the folks on your side start the ad hominem attacks. it's not as much of a slam dunk as you guys think it is...but it may end up going your way- we will see how it plays out in the courts. i am sure the gopher students affected will be ok, since so many posters have said the U is gonna hand out big bucks after they lose in court.
 

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read that stuff before. its not a settled issue of law either way. I have gone back and forth with a bunch of you about this repeatedly. the courts will settle it eventually. you think you're right, i think you are wrong....then generally the folks on your side start the ad hominem attacks. it's not as much of a slam dunk as you guys think it is...but it may end up going your way- we will see how it plays out in the courts. i am sure the gopher students affected will be ok, since so many posters have said the U is gonna hand out big bucks after they lose in court.

You support biased hearing panels, lack of recorded testimony, arbitrary exclusion of evidence, lack of representation, and a single investigator acting as judge and jury? you really feel this is appropriate for the gravity of the charges and the consequences?
 

Based on these guy's explanation the law in these matters is far from settled. I'd encourage every lawyer, actual or armchair to read through it. From the FIRE paper:

https://www.thefire.org/fire-guides...mpus-full-text/#__RefHeading__2500_2127946742



The 2011 OCR mandates are not supported by prior court decisions. From the FIRE paper:


OCR’s mandate is in tension with Supreme Court rulings like Goss v. Lopez (1975) and Addington v. Texas (1979). In Goss, as discussed earlier in this Guide, the Court held that when “a person’s good name, reputation, honor, or integrity is at stake because of what the government is doing to him,” due process requires “precautions against unfair or mistaken findings of misconduct and arbitrary exclusion from school.” The Court made these observations about due process protections at the elementary and secondary school level, finding at least minimal requirements of due process necessary because disciplinary action “could seriously damage the students’ standing with their fellow pupils and their teachers as well as interfere with later opportunities for higher education and employment.” Given the increased likelihood of much further-reaching negative consequences for a college student found guilty of sexual harassment or sexual violence in a campus judicial proceeding, greater protections are required, not lesser.

And in Addington, the Court—“mindful that the function of legal process is to minimize the risk of erroneous decisions”—noted that an intermediate standard of proof (i.e., the clear and convincing standard) might properly be used “in civil cases involving allegations of fraud or some other quasi-criminal wrongdoing by the defendant.” The Court arrived at this conclusion because the “interests at stake in those cases are deemed to be more substantial than mere loss of money,” and using the clear and convincing standard “reduce the risk to the defendant of having his reputation tarnished erroneously by increasing the plaintiff’s burden of proof.” As FIRE pointed out in a May 2011 response to OCR’s “Dear Colleague” letter, college sexual assault hearings involve allegations of felony criminal conduct, and the interests implicated certainly go beyond the mere loss of money.

In the 2011 “Dear Colleague” letter, OCR argued that the preponderance of the evidence standard is appropriate for adjudicating sexual assault and sexual harassment claims because it is the same standard that federal courts use when deciding civil lawsuits, including civil rights lawsuits. But as FIRE and others have noted, the use of this low burden of proof in federal civil cases is counterbalanced by the many procedural safeguards provided to defendants in those cases—safeguards that aren’t present in campus cases. To provide just a few examples:

Defendants in civil trials have their hearings conducted by experienced and impartial judges.

Either party can ask a jury to determine findings of fact.

Either party may be represented by an attorney.

The rules of “discovery” allow each party to gather necessary evidence from the other side upon request.

Hearsay and other forms of unreliable evidence are typically excluded from the proceeding, and all testimony is given under sworn oath.

None of these protections are guaranteed in campus sexual assault hearings, rendering the comparison between the use of the preponderance of the evidence standard in civil court and campus hearings wholly inappropriate. And while defendants in civil lawsuits have the option to settle out of court and keep the matter private, students found guilty by campus tribunals have no such option, virtually guaranteeing that a negative outcome will have a lifelong effect.


My point is this: none of these things are in the student code of conduct. The code of conduct simply outlines the process, and does not get into details. The code includes nothing about discovery, who may represent the accused, or the role of a judge or jury. It simply calls for a "fair hearing", and outlines the most basic steps of the process. Anyone who is saying the issue is with the Student Code of Conduct hasn't read it.
 

The point is that the charges are far more serious than say, cheating or plagiarism which are easily proven, and thus a higher level of due process is warranted than is currently given.

Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
 

The point is that the charges are far more serious than say, cheating or plagiarism which are easily proven, and thus a higher level of due process is warranted than is currently given.

Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

I don't think the problem is necessarily with the charges, I think it is with the penalties. Expulsion is a far cry from probation or a reprimand. Think felony vs. petty misdemeanor. I think sexual harassment might be worthy of expulsion in some cases but not in others, just like plagiarism could be worthy of a punishment anywhere from probation to expulsion depending on the circumstances. In some lines of work an annotation of cheating or plagiarism on your transcript would be just as harmful to your ability to get a job as non-criminal sexual assault adjudicated by a student conduct panel.
 




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