All Things Dredrick Snelson Thread

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The facts are, beyond the top, superstar players with obvious and elite talent, there is a sea of players with similar talent but unknowable football IQ, heart, aggressiveness, and desire to get better, along with physical maturation issues.

In aggregate, recruiting matters because the best coaches get many of the best players, and they tend to win more on average. However, there are so many exceptions to that rule that one cannot hang their hat on recruiting as the definition of "talent", eg with Nebraska or Michigan vs Minnesota in recent years.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The facts are, beyond the top, superstar players with obvious and elite talent, there is a sea of players with similar talent but unknowable football IQ, heart, aggressiveness, and desire to get better, along with physical maturation issues.

In aggregate, recruiting matters because the best coaches get many of the best players, and they tend to win more on average. However, there are so many exceptions to that rule that one cannot hang their hat on recruiting as the definition of "talent", eg with Nebraska or Michigan vs Minnesota in recent years.
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I have a headache.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Even one example makes it true. More offers does not equal a higher ranking, period.



Why are you attempting to condescend to me when: A. I am much, much smarter than you; and B. you can't grasp basic homophones?



As I've said many times, whether I'm right or wrong is immaterial. It's that people consistently get basic facts wrong, and then get thin-skinned and defensive like elementary schoolers when they're corrected.
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What kind of person writes the phrase, "I win, you lose," and then goes on to complain that others are acting like elementary schoolers? Nice intelligent discourse.

I remember my grandpa, a fiery baptist preacher until the day he shrugged off his mortal coil, used to point out to me people he thought were a little too big for their britches. He then always quoted Matthew 6:5: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners, to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."
 

Urbandale said:
What kind of person writes the phrase, "I win, you lose," and then goes on to complain that others are acting like elementary schoolers? Nice intelligent discourse.

I remember my grandpa, a fiery baptist preacher until the day he shrugged off his mortal coil, used to point out to me people he thought were a little too big for their britches. He then always quoted Matthew 6:5: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners, to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."
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What kind of person writes "shrugged off his mortal coil", and then complains about a lack of intelligent discourse?
 



dpodoll68 said:
Even one example makes it true.
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So, if someone finds a single example of someone who had an increase in stars after getting more offers (or a high profile offer), then that will prove there is a correlation, right?
 



Woooooooooooo! WE GOT A TOP WR RECRUIT!!!!!!

Who cares about dopedoll?
 



Spoofin said:
So, if someone finds a single example of someone who had an increase in stars after getting more offers (or a high profile offer), then that will prove there is a correlation, right?
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Which at some point has absolutely positively happened. Just a couple years ago a Gopher assistant coach(I think it was Sawvel but not sure) stated this exact thing does in fact happen.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Gladly, for probably the 85th time on this board.

4-star (was actually a 5-star at one point) with one offer: http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Glenn-Faulkner-103433

2-star with 11 offers: http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Damien-Wilson-144616

More offers does not equal a higher rating. I win, you lose. Thanks for playing.
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Wow, even for you this post is beyond childish, not to mention flat out wrong. The fact that you think two examples proves your point honestly makes me question your intelligence. You clearly didn't take logic 101 in college. We know that there have been cases where a school or schools offer a kid and suddenly they have another star.

But beyond that, you calling out someone else for acting like elementary school children is pure gold. Your act has really worn thin on here, you seem like a miserable person.
 

“I actually had Cris Collinsworth, Al Michaels, our producer and director all kind of sitting around this iPad, watching this great upset,” Tafoya said. “And I remember thinking, something may be happening in Minnesota.”

Off topic - where is this quote from?
 

DMB123 said:
Wow, even for you this post is beyond childish, not to mention flat out wrong. The fact that you think two examples proves your point honestly makes me question your intelligence. You clearly didn't take logic 101 in college. We know that there have been cases where a school or schools offer a kid and suddenly they have another star.

But beyond that, you calling out someone else for acting like elementary school children is pure gold. Your act has really worn thin on here, you seem like a miserable person.
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Please list those examples.
 




justthefacts said:
Please list those examples.
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Here you go...

Follow

Jay Sawvel
‏@JaySawvel
Jimmie Ward was a zero star recruit until he signed at NIU and he got 2 token ones - now a first round pick!!!
RETWEETS
30
FAVORITES
32

I think I'll trust an actual Big Ten DB coach over you and Dpodoll.
 

DMB123 said:
Here you go...

Follow

Jay Sawvel
‏@JaySawvel
Jimmie Ward was a zero star recruit until he signed at NIU and he got 2 token ones - now a first round pick!!!
RETWEETS
30
FAVORITES
32

I think I'll trust an actual Big Ten DB coach over you and Dpodoll.
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Wow...so he was rated zero stars before then?
 

The trick in this question is finding evidence of the lower star rating prior to the change, Rivals typically buries their stories once this happens and it is difficult to find back. One quick example I have is Jalen Collins (DB) that went to LSU. He was a 3 star CB with Rivals (which means he was rated), had no offers and camped at LSU where he had a good camp, got offered, committed to them and instantly became a 4* with no other offers. Now finding evidence of this takes time to find as Rivals doesn't allow me access to that anymore, but if you research newspaper articles from his HS area you will see it listed that on Rivals he was listed as a three star prior to the camp. This is just 1 example, there are tons of them throughout the years if you follow recruiting. The rating websites are great for people to become familiar with players and sizes and schools looking at them butt you should really leave it up to the coaches and staffs of the football teams to determine player abilities.



justthefacts said:
Please list those examples.
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Unregistered User said:
Can you point me to the course description of this class at The "U"? I'm pretty sure that's where dpo went.
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Summer 2015 | PHIL 1001 Section 001: Introduction to Logic (80866)

Course Catalog Description:
Application of formal techniques for evaluating arguments.
Class Description:
Have you ever heard an argument that you knew wasn't any good, but you didn't have the tools you needed to show what was wrong with it? This course will give you those tools. We will look at many different kinds of arguments and we will identify the patterns of good and bad arguments. You will learn a method for describing and analyzing these patterns so that you will be able to evaluate even very complicated arguments in a straightforward way. Armed with these abilities you will be able to diagnose the problems with faulty arguments and you will be better equipped to come up with excellent arguments of your own. Your writing will become clearer, better argued, and more forceful. And most of all, your will become a clearer and more reasonable thinker. Logic cannot teach you what to think, but it will teach you how to think, and thinking logically is a crucial skill for you as a student and a citizen.

Dpo definitely missed this course.
 

DMB123 said:
Summer 2015 | PHIL 1001 Section 001: Introduction to Logic (80866)

Course Catalog Description:
Application of formal techniques for evaluating arguments.
Class Description:
Have you ever heard an argument that you knew wasn't any good, but you didn't have the tools you needed to show what was wrong with it? This course will give you those tools. We will look at many different kinds of arguments and we will identify the patterns of good and bad arguments. You will learn a method for describing and analyzing these patterns so that you will be able to evaluate even very complicated arguments in a straightforward way. Armed with these abilities you will be able to diagnose the problems with faulty arguments and you will be better equipped to come up with excellent arguments of your own. Your writing will become clearer, better argued, and more forceful. And most of all, your will become a clearer and more reasonable thinker. Logic cannot teach you what to think, but it will teach you how to think, and thinking logically is a crucial skill for you as a student and a citizen.

Dpo definitely missed this course.
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Oh...Philosophy 1001. Could have sworn you typed "logic 101".
 

DMB123 said:
You clearly didn't take logic 101 in college.
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You're right, I didn't. Here at the University of Minnesota (did you attend?), courses are given four-digit number designations, not three (e.g., 1001, not 101). Also, there is no such thing as a "logic" designator here at the U of M. It's funny you should mention that - I actually did take Philosophy 1001 (Intro to Logic) in Winter 1999. Even though it was over 16 years ago, it's very memorable because the professor (http://philosophy.umn.edu/people/FacultyProfile.php?UID=whanson) always referred to himself in the third person as "Hanson", and even though it was the middle of January, his skin was bronze and it always looked like he had just walked off a beach in Miami.

DMB123 said:
Your act has really worn thin on here, you seem like a miserable person.
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Nope - I'm quite happy and content. I'm not really sure what that has to do with the topic at hand, though. Can I expect another DM from you soon for lashing out and making personal attacks toward me?
 

A) The Jimmie Ward example doesn't prove what you want it to, just like the Lingen example didn't in this thread: http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/bo...SPN/page4&highlight=offers+stars+justthefacts

Guys get offers and it prompts the services to evaluate them. That's not the same thing as a 3* guy with a Gopher offer going to a 4* with an Alabama offer.

B) If Sawvel's point is that the recruiting service ranked him too low because he went to the NFL, well I guess fire Urban Meyer and Nick Saban because neither one of them offered him.

C) Other good examples in the thread above of highly rated guys with no big offers.

D) The Jalen Collins example is funny because he ended up as a composite 3*. Kind of proves the opposite of what you want it to: http://247sports.com/Player/Jalen-Collins-8137?PlayerInstitution=11404
 

DMB123 said:
Here you go...

Follow

Jay Sawvel
‏@JaySawvel
Jimmie Ward was a zero star recruit until he signed at NIU and he got 2 token ones - now a first round pick!!!
RETWEETS
30
FAVORITES
32

I think I'll trust an actual Big Ten DB coach over you and Dpodoll.
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Zero stars means he hasn't been evaluated. He got evaluated and received a rating, just like every other prospect who had previously been unrated. This is not only unscientific, it's invalid and irrelevant. While we're on the subject, he's a football coach, not a prospect evaluator for a recruiting service. I doubt he knows anything more about how they evaluate and rate prospects than the average rube on the street. He's far too busy coaching football and doing his own evaluations to have any appreciable level of familiarity with how the recruiting services hand out ratings.
 




dpodoll68 said:
Zero stars means he hasn't been evaluated. He got evaluated and received a rating, just like every other prospect who had previously been unrated. This is not only unscientific, it's invalid and irrelevant. While we're on the subject, he's a football coach, not a prospect evaluator for a recruiting service. I doubt he knows anything more about how they evaluate and rate prospects than the average rube on the street. He's far too busy coaching football and doing his own evaluations to have any appreciable level of familiarity with how the recruiting services hand out ratings.
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What you're not getting is the fact that he only received an eval from Rivals once he got an offer from NIU. Had he not received the offer from NIU Rivals would have continued to ignore him. You have been proven completely wrong on this. And again, I'll trust Jay Sawvel over you every time. And the fact that you don't think Jay Sawvel knows how Rivals rates and evaluates players any better than the average rube on the street is just silly.
 


Pretty sure Dpo already explained this. Some services don't evaluate unknown players until a program offers them. They aren't going to evaluate every high school football player in the country. This is different than a service adding stars based on a certain school offering. It is simply evaluating a player they missed that now needs to be evaluated
 

http://www.oregonlive.com/recruiting/index.ssf/2015/03/how_to_analyze_college_footbal_1.html

"Oregon Ducks wide receiver commit Dillon Mitchell holds offers from Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida State, Georgia, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oregon, Penn State, UCLA and many others. He's one of the most coveted wide receivers in the country and is seen as a game-changing playmaker.

But the frustration in his voice is clear when he talks about his status as a prospect - not the offers or his future with the Ducks, but the fact that he is still rated as a three-star prospect by Rivals and ESPN. The worldwide leader even has a glaring "NR" for "not rated" next to his position, region and state ranking."

""I'm a college football fan... and I was following recruiting really closely. I was seeing recruits that had tons of offers and weren't rated very highly," he said. "I thought, 'This doesn't look right to me.' I think people had been looking at offers all along anyway when they are evaluating players, so I wanted to see if I could come up with a way to qualify it."

"According to RankByOffers, the No. 1 player in the country in the class of 2015 was Florida product Javarius Davis, who tallied 58 scholarship offers but only 14 from top 25 programs. The 5-foot-9 athlete was not rated as one of the nation's top 247 recruits by Rivals, ESPN, Scout or 247Sports.

Oregon State's top recruit in the class of 2015, according to RankByOffers, was Texas offensive lineman Zach Lucas, a player who was widely considered a two-star recruit.

On the oppose side of the coin, Oregon defensive line commit Canton Kaumatule, a consensus five-star recruit who dominated at the Under Armour All-American practices, was ranked just 293rd by RankByOffers. "
 

DMB123 said:
What you're not getting is the fact that he only received an eval from Rivals once he got an offer from NIU.
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Duh. I've said the same thing over and over again. I even said it in the thread that justthefacts linked earlier in this thread. There are far too many HS players for the recruiting services to evaluate all of them. Sometimes decent prospects are missed. When they get an offer, the recruiting services are incented to evaluate them. They go from unevaluated and unrated to evaluated and rated. What's funny is that you think this bolsters your point.

DMB123 said:
Had he not received the offer from NIU Rivals would have continued to ignore him.
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Again - duh. It's not at all relevant to the conversation, but thanks anyway.

DMB123 said:
You have been proven completely wrong on this.
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Nope.

DMB123 said:
And again, I'll trust Jay Sawvel over you every time.
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On coaching football? On evaluating prospects? Yes, absolutely. To do otherwise would be foolish.

DMB123 said:
And the fact that you don't think Jay Sawvel knows how Rivals rates and evaluates players any better than the average rube on the street is just silly.
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I would be willing to bet a sizable sum that he couldn't give even a Jr. high-level recap of their methodology if asked to do so extemporaneously. He doesn't get paid six figures to know about Rivals.
 

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