All things D2 and D3 football 2022

disco

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To run a scholarship d1 program at the FCS level it would take around 7 million extra per year. I’m not aware of a donor who would pay it: I think pioneer is perfect for them. St Thomas moved up to become a basketball school
Yep, and that makes sense for them - we should have another D1 hoops program here. My old boss, since retired, was talking to the volleyball coach at UST just before they made the transition. I can't recall what he told me the budget increase was just for volleyball, but it was a lot of money. 63 football scholarships aren't likely in the cards.

Plus, Nobody really knows what's going to happen with football. The Dakota schools could (could, not will) get an invite to move to FBS, but then again, we could see yet another split of some sort at the FBS level. Blindly trying to get into the MVFC might not be a good idea.
 

Some guy

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Yep, and that makes sense for them - we should have another D1 hoops program here. My old boss, since retired, was talking to the volleyball coach at UST just before they made the transition. I can't recall what he told me the budget increase was just for volleyball, but it was a lot of money. 63 football scholarships aren't likely in the cards.

Plus, Nobody really knows what's going to happen with football. The Dakota schools could (could, not will) get an invite to move to FBS, but then again, we could see yet another split of some sort at the FBS level. Blindly trying to get into the MVFC might not be a good idea.
And it’s not just 63 football scholarships

It’s that plus the amount you need to stay title 9 compliant.

I suspect if they ever go scholarship football they drop some other mens programs. Because if they don’t they’d have to expand women’s programs to stay compliant
 

MaxyJR1

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Looking at the polls for D2, looks like the Northern Sun has really fallen off. 1 team in the Top 25. I think a lot of kids would rather go to St. Thomas, Gustavus, St. Johns, or Bethel etc.
 

IceBoxGopher

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Looking at the polls for D2, looks like the Northern Sun has really fallen off. 1 team in the Top 25. I think a lot of kids would rather go to St. Thomas, Gustavus, St. Johns, or Bethel etc.
To be fair, UMD and MSU Mankato are both receiving votes, as is Bemidji State. USF also looks good this year. Could be very possible Duluth, Mankato and Sioux Falls end up in the Top 25 as the season goes on.

Also Mankato was the national runner-up in 2019 and made it to the national semi-final in 2018.
 

Panthadad2

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Looking at the polls for D2, looks like the Northern Sun has really fallen off. 1 team in the Top 25. I think a lot of kids would rather go to St. Thomas, Gustavus, St. Johns, or Bethel etc.

I'd argue that MSU Mankato and UMD have as a good chance to compete nationally in good years as St. Johns and Bethel (which usually do not have the juice of the very top national D3 programs) and definitely better than GAC historically. The NSIC has had two national champions (UMD) and two national runner-ups (Mankato) since St. Johns was last in, and won, the finals in 2003.

Bemidji nor Augustana have proven themselves yet nationally.

St. Thomas is now irrelevant nationally.

On a side note, looking at the past D2 winners since UMD's last win in 2010, it appears that university size has its advantages when it comes to D2 football.

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Gophers_4life

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And it’s not just 63 football scholarships

It’s that plus the amount you need to stay title 9 compliant.

I suspect if they ever go scholarship football they drop some other mens programs. Because if they don’t they’d have to expand women’s programs to stay compliant
Not mention that they have men's and women's hockey, which are very expensive programs too. As far as I know, they plan to try to be nationally competitive in those. UND dropped their women's team because it's so expensive.

If they keep football long term, Pioneer is perfect for them.
 

Gophers_4life

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I'd argue that MSU Mankato and UMD have as a good chance to compete nationally in good years as St. Johns and Bethel (which usually do not have the juice of the very top national D3 programs) and definitely better than GAC historically. The NSIC has had two national champions (UMD) and two national runner-ups (Mankato) since St. Johns was last in, and won, the finals in 2003.

Bemidji nor Augustana have proven themselves yet nationally.

St. Thomas is now irrelevant nationally.

On a side note, looking at the past D2 winners since UMD's last win in 2010, it appears that university size has its advantages when it comes to D2 football.

View attachment 20217
Yep, the obvious thing is: you can charge a smaller fee per student to subsidize the athletic program. Would guess almost no DII programs pay for themselves.
 

Panthadad2

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Yep, the obvious thing is: you can charge a smaller fee per student to subsidize the athletic program. Would guess almost no DII programs pay for themselves.

They probably pay for themselves if you count the "recruited tuition" of students that would not have come to the school if not for football. Definitely not if you're just counting ticket and media revenue. Successful marketing from having good athletics generates good P.R. and revenue but it's impossible to measure.
 

Gophers_4life

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There are still some scholarships in DII, so that reduces it a bit. But still a fair point.

In DIII, especially at small (liberal arts) colleges is where that argument really makes a lot of sense. And particularly to get more men on the campus!
 



Panthadad2

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There are still some scholarships in DII, so that reduces it a bit. But still a fair point.

In DIII, especially at small (liberal arts) colleges is where that argument really makes a lot of sense. And particularly to get more men on the campus!

This last point about men is more important than most would think, especially in private schools. I think the female/male mix is often higher than 60/40.
 
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IceBoxGopher

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I'd argue that MSU Mankato and UMD have as a good chance to compete nationally in good years as St. Johns and Bethel (which usually do not have the juice of the very top national D3 programs) and definitely better than GAC historically. The NSIC has had two national champions (UMD) and two national runner-ups (Mankato) since St. Johns was last in, and won, the finals in 2003.

Bemidji nor Augustana have proven themselves yet nationally.

St. Thomas is now irrelevant nationally.

On a side note, looking at the past D2 winners since UMD's last win in 2010, it appears that university size has its advantages when it comes to D2 football.

View attachment 20217
Good stats. Also in the Mineral Water Bowl, which is a match-up between the NSIC and usually the MIAA, the NSIC has won five of the last 10.
 

Tommyboy

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It would have been cool, if the DII programs would have followed NDSU and SDSU into the Valley, whenever that occurred. How many other states is DIII football larger then DII, probably none.
 

Panthadad2

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It would have been cool, if the DII programs would have followed NDSU and SDSU into the Valley, whenever that occurred. How many other states is DIII football larger then DII, probably none.

Wisconsin. Iowa. Illinois. More?
 



Some guy

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Not mention that they have men's and women's hockey, which are very expensive programs too. As far as I know, they plan to try to be nationally competitive in those. UND dropped their women's team because it's so expensive.

If they keep football long term, Pioneer is perfect for them.
They will keep football. But they aren’t a football school. Pioneer is perfect
 


disco

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The Dakota schools didn't just "go to the Valley."

There were transition periods where the schools were in the now defunct Great West Football conference, and UND spent time in the Big Sky as well. Not to mention that the Valley is still a football only conference - the members of that football conference belong to several primary conferences in other sports (MVC, Summit, Horizon.)

In addition, NDSU and SDSU transitioned to D1 before UND and USD by a few years. They didn't all go as one big happy group.

Those are also flagship universities for their respective states. On what planet was the state of Minnesota going to pay for SMSU or MSU-Moorhead or Winona State to go Division 1 in all sports?
 


laazrakit

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UST is not long for the Pioneer League so I wouldn't recommend SJU follow them there.
Exactly... After that probationary period that St. Thomas has to follow, I'm willing to bet it won't be long before they're in the MVC. I, for one, am kinda low-key excited about the prospect, since it'd give a bunch of MN kids an opportunity to stay home instead of going west to play for NDSU. Every season there seems to be a couple of dozen MN players on that roster.
 

Gopherchase

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For the most part, D3 is an extension of HS football kids don’t have to do much in the off season (less than HS kids have to do probably) if they don’t want to and the quality isn’t great. D2 is a step up, but really the FCS is where things get interesting and the play gets real. Minnesota doesn’t put out a lot of big 10 caliber players but they put out a boatload of FCS stars every year. Thats one of the reasons the FCS schools around us play a really good football; overall.
 

disco

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Exactly... After that probationary period that St. Thomas has to follow, I'm willing to bet it won't be long before they're in the MVC. I, for one, am kinda low-key excited about the prospect, since it'd give a bunch of MN kids an opportunity to stay home instead of going west to play for NDSU. Every season there seems to be a couple of dozen MN players on that roster.
Where will they play - is O'Shaughnessy big enough? (don't say Allianz - MNUFC would never allow it) and who will fund the 63 scholarships? They still have no permanent home for their hockey teams either.
 

short ornery norwegian

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For the most part, D3 is an extension of HS football kids don’t have to do much in the off season (less than HS kids have to do probably) if they don’t want to and the quality isn’t great. D2 is a step up, but really the FCS is where things get interesting and the play gets real. Minnesota doesn’t put out a lot of big 10 caliber players but they put out a boatload of FCS stars every year. Thats one of the reasons the FCS schools around us play a really good football; overall.

I think you are selling D3 WAY too short. Sure, at certain schools, there may be less emphasis on football. But a lot of D3 programs recruit nationally. There have been D3 players who have made it to the NFL. I watch some D3 games online and I find the games very entertaining.

and D2 plays - IMHO - a solid brand of football.

the big difference between levels is depth. you will find some good players at every level. D2 teams as a rule will have more good players than D3. FCS teams will have more good players than D2, and so on.

but, to say the play isn't "real" at D2 or D3 is - IMHO - not fair to the athletes and coaches who take part at those levels.
 

Gophers_4life

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The Dakota schools didn't just "go to the Valley."

There were transition periods where the schools were in the now defunct Great West Football conference, and UND spent time in the Big Sky as well. Not to mention that the Valley is still a football only conference - the members of that football conference belong to several primary conferences in other sports (MVC, Summit, Horizon.)

In addition, NDSU and SDSU transitioned to D1 before UND and USD by a few years. They didn't all go as one big happy group.

Those are also flagship universities for their respective states. On what planet was the state of Minnesota going to pay for SMSU or MSU-Moorhead or Winona State to go Division 1 in all sports?
The state wouldn't pay a dime for that. Their students would bear the brunt of that, with athletics fees.
 


fatgopher

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For the most part, D3 is an extension of HS football kids don’t have to do much in the off season (less than HS kids have to do probably) if they don’t want to and the quality isn’t great. D2 is a step up, but really the FCS is where things get interesting and the play gets real. Minnesota doesn’t put out a lot of big 10 caliber players but they put out a boatload of FCS stars every year. Thats one of the reasons the FCS schools around us play a really good football; overall.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Roughly 7% of high school football players go on to play ANY level of college football.
 

Panthadad2

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I just noticed two big NSIC games this Saturday.
UMD at MSU Mankato 6pm game (might try to stream this one if available)
Bemidji at Augustana.1pm game

I'll be streaming UMHB at Whitewater at noon as well while poking around other games on Dish. Another Saturday that not much gets done around the house.
 

Some guy

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For the most part, D3 is an extension of HS football kids don’t have to do much in the off season (less than HS kids have to do probably) if they don’t want to and the quality isn’t great. D2 is a step up, but really the FCS is where things get interesting and the play gets real. Minnesota doesn’t put out a lot of big 10 caliber players but they put out a boatload of FCS stars every year. Thats one of the reasons the FCS schools around us play a really good football; overall.
This attitude and lack of knowledge is what leads so many kids and parents to be frustrated by their high school career.

There are legitimately thousands of parents accross the state of Minnesota with kids who couldn’t get their kids on the field for Hamline who call school coaches and administrators weekly complaining about why their kid isn’t getting d1 looks.


I’ll tell you why they don’t get d1 looks, because they aren’t good enough to play d3.
 

IceBoxGopher

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I just noticed two big NSIC games this Saturday.
UMD at MSU Mankato 6pm game (might try to stream this one if available)
Bemidji at Augustana.1pm game

I'll be streaming UMHB at Whitewater at noon as well while poking around other games on Dish. Another Saturday that not much gets done around the house.
On that point, the NSIC has a free app that can be downloaded on Roku/AppleTV and the like. All football and basketball games are broadcast on there
 

Panthadad2

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On that point, the NSIC has a free app that can be downloaded on Roku/AppleTV and the like. All football and basketball games are broadcast on there

Yeah, I've found the Roku apps work really well for the schools and conferences that use them. I think quality streaming is a nice opportunity for non-D1 schools to get some exposure. A close family member goes to UMHB in TX and I'm watching all the time. A nice option.
 

Schnauzer

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For the most part, D3 is an extension of HS football kids don’t have to do much in the off season (less than HS kids have to do probably) if they don’t want to and the quality isn’t great.

I guess it is possible there is a D3 program somewhere that operates like this. My experience is with the MIAC and this type of approach would not only guarantee a perennial 0-10 team, but would also likely put a player not doing “much in the off season” in physical danger.
 

Goph4Lyfe

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I guess it is possible there is a D3 program somewhere that operates like this. My experience is with the MIAC and this type of approach would not only guarantee a perennial 0-10 team, but would also likely put a player not doing “much in the off season” in physical danger.
Absolutely agree. I am a current student at Carleton (playing soccer, not football) but am good friends with a good number of the football players. Guys are working out 5 days a week in the summer at minimum to prepare for the preseason here, not to mention 6 or 7 days a week once preseason starts, with a lot of double practices. Players wouldn't survive by not doing much in the offseason
 




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