All Things 2022 Minnesota High School Football Thread

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Gophers_4life said:
But what are the distances of those schools to the respective next public secondary school?

Guessing in most cases a lot longer than 5mi to Virginia at 443, which is merging with Eveleth at 246 to make a new combined high school, 7mi to Chisholm at 185, and 12mi to Hibbing at 596.

Absolute minimum it makes zero sense for MIB not to be merged with Chisholm. More kids is less overhead and more opportunities.

https://www.mshsl.org/sites/default...llments-for-2021-22-and-2022-23-by-enroll.pdf


Info on Virginia Eveleth merger: https://bringmethenews.com/minnesot...a-hockey-schools-consolidate-to-form-new-team
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These aren't the only reasons why school districts are formed. It is entirely possible that the people of Mt. Iron don't want their children to go to Chisholm because they would have less control of their public schools. They may feel like there is a big enough difference in what helps kinds from Mt. Iron compared to what helps kids from Chisholm and if they were folded into the Chisholm school district they would lose the ability to have their children educated the way they want them to be educated.

Your point makes sense if communities and students were all sort of fungible assets but that's not how a lot of communities (especially smaller ones) view themselves.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
These aren't the only reasons why school districts are formed. It is entirely possible that the people of Mt. Iron don't want their children to go to Chisholm because they would have less control of their public schools. They may feel like there is a big enough difference in what helps kinds from Mt. Iron compared to what helps kids from Chisholm and if they were folded into the Chisholm school district they would lose the ability to have their children educated the way they want them to be educated.

Your point makes sense if communities and students were all sort of fungible assets but that's not how a lot of communities (especially smaller ones) view themselves.
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Fair point.

But it's not like only Chisholm voters would control everything and be the only folks allowed on the School board. It would expand to fully include the new communities. I would think they'd go for 1/3rd from each town. Or at least half each.
 

cheeseheadgophfan said:
First of all....I come in peace. Just have a question so don't start calling me an idiot.
Couldn't the argument be made that this wasn't s "shift"? It looks to me like as they break the huddle, the two players moving realize they were on the wrong side of the play. Player on the bottom gets set, with Player #2 going in motion......if he's in motion he doesn't have to set for a second, or am I totally off base?
Respectfully,
:D:p
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Correct. Not sure what the offensive call is.
Regardless of call they have multiple people moving without all getting reset before a snap = illegal shift

It may have been an illegal shift due to kids lining up wrong not due to them trying to shift
 

If the player wasn't already set, then moved ... it's not a shift, at all? It's just one long continuous movement from the huddle break.
 

cheeseheadgophfan said:
First of all....I come in peace. Just have a question so don't start calling me an idiot.
Couldn't the argument be made that this wasn't s "shift"? It looks to me like as they break the huddle, the two players moving realize they were on the wrong side of the play. Player on the bottom gets set, with Player #2 going in motion......if he's in motion he doesn't have to set for a second, or am I totally off base?
Respectfully,
:D:p
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I really don't think they were in motion, they lined up wrong. My question, which I don't know the answer... does each player have to get at least once pre snap? I know they don't have to be set when the ball is snapped... they just have to be moving parallel or away from the line of scrimmage.
 


BOOM

Yep, that's exactly what happen. Neither player ever got set, in the first place.

Here's the video again, go to around 11sec in to see

 

I've been a head coach in football for 19 years. However you interpret the play, it was illegal and should've been blown dead as soon as the ball was snapped.

If you want to say the players were shifting, then they both need to get set for a second before the snap. Play is blown dead immediately upon the snap.

If you want to say one kid was trying to get lined up correctly and the other was in motion, then you have two men moving pre-snap and that's a penalty. Play is blown dead immediately upon the snap.

I don't want to sound like I have all the answers but every coach and referee that has ever been involved with varsity football should know this. In fact, pre-snap motion and illegal shift penalties are called at all levels of football from 7th grade on up. This is not a debate like traveling or a carry in basketball. These are cut and dry rules to not allow any added advantage to the offense over the defense. It was a blown call. Its that simple.
 

mailman25 said:
If you want to say the players were shifting, then they both need to get set for a second before the snap. Play is blown dead immediately upon the snap.

If you want to say one kid was trying to get lined up correctly and the other was in motion, then you have two men moving pre-snap and that's a penalty. Play is blown dead immediately upon the snap.
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Or, then there's the actual thing that happened:

- huddle broke
- kids went the wrong way, realized it late, neither ever got set in the first place
- the kid who (eventually) ended up at the bottom did get set prior to the snap
- the kid who (eventually) ended up towards the top was moving laterally


Legal
 

Gophers_4life said:
Or, then there's the actual thing that happened:

- huddle broke
- kids went the wrong way, realized it late, neither ever got set in the first place
- the kid who (eventually) ended up at the bottom did get set prior to the snap
- the kid who (eventually) ended up towards the top was moving laterally


Legal
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It would only be legal if the kid moving laterally started his motion after the other kid got set. You can't have a player in motion while another player is moving. I'm not sure how else to explain that to you but I will try since I am currently looking at the 2022 NFHS rule book:

Rule 7-2-7 states the following:
Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line. Except for the player “under the snapper,” as outlined in Article 3, the player in motion shall be at least 5 yards behind his line of scrimmage at the snap if he started from any position not clearly behind the line and did not establish himself as a back by stopping for at least one full second while no part of his body is breaking the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on the line of scrimmage.
 



Gophers_4life said:
Or, then there's the actual thing that happened:

- huddle broke
- kids went the wrong way, realized it late, neither ever got set in the first place
- the kid who (eventually) ended up at the bottom did get set prior to the snap
- the kid who (eventually) ended up towards the top was moving laterally


Legal
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Numerous players can be in motion pre-snap, but it is not a legal snap until all plays become set, at which time one player can be in motion at time of snap.

Weird hill to die on, but at least you're dead?
 



#81 also didn't have his mouthguard in when he scored the TD.....isn't that still a penalty in high school?

Just adding fuel to the fire..........:cool::cool::cool:
 



fatgopher said:
Except for that important nugget of all 11 needing to be set before a player goes in motion? the ball can be snapped
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Apologies, you were too fast. I meant to edit my post, but I'll just post it here.


Yes, you are correct.


THIS is the actual thing, then. Not the 100 prior posts where people were incorrectly complaining about rules for illegal shift. There never was an illegal shift, because there was never any shift.

But the player who was near the top of the formation technically never got set after the huddle broke. Agree. He was always in motion, technically.


Now, you can easily argue, and it would be true, that he stayed in one spot for a full second before the snap. He was just chopping his feet, rather than being still. Sure, technically wrong.

But it didn't affect the outcome an iota, so I'm glad it was missed!
 

Gophers_4life said:
Which is exactly what hap
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Gophers_4life said:
There was only one player in motion. As I said, the played at the bottom of the formation was set prior to the snap.


Just because two players changed directions from where they had initially been jogging to out of the huddle break doesn't make be in a shift.
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I'm not trying to be funny, but I hope you are not in a position to coach or ref football. If you are a coach, I suggest that you run this same play with the same movement on the first play of your season next year. See what happens....
 


Gophers_4life said:
See post above, I had already deleted the post you replied to.
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And I apologize for sounding snarky. Not my intention. I have no dog in this fight, but I do feel bad for the DGF team. I will also admit that it was a great play and I appreciate the skill and preparation that went into it.
 

mailman25 said:
And I apologize for sounding snarky. Not my intention. I have no dog in this fight, but I do feel bad for the DGF team. I will also admit that it was a great play and I appreciate the skill and preparation that went into it.
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I can't feel bad for DGF. Their defenders were in as good of a position to defend that ball as they possibly could have been. It was a tremendous effort that won the game.

No one play can ever win or lose a game. If they didn't want to lose to that tremendous play, then they should've scored more points or held them to less points for all of the rest of the game.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Apologies, you were too fast. I meant to edit my post, but I'll just post it here.


Yes, you are correct.


THIS is the actual thing, then. Not the 100 prior posts where people were incorrectly complaining about rules for illegal shift. There never was an illegal shift, because there was never any shift.

But the player who was near the top of the formation technically never got set after the huddle broke. Agree. He was always in motion, technically.


Now, you can easily argue, and it would be true, that he stayed in one spot for a full second before the snap. He was just chopping his feet, rather than being still. Sure, technically wrong.

But it didn't affect the outcome an iota, so I'm glad it was missed!
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It's a pre-snap procedural penalty, those have to be flagged. I believe 99% of them likely are at the varsity high school level and above. Stop trying to muddy the waters of shift, motion, chopping feet, etc. The rule specifically states if numerous players are in motion, then all 11 need to come set before any ONE player is allowed back in motion/shift. What happened was 9 players got set with two in motion, then player 10 gets set, but player 11 never did, which makes it a violation. Move it back 5 yards and replay the down.

The NL-S receiver made a very heady play on the fly, crazy ending, top play on Sports Center, etc. etc. But it should have been whistled dead before the QB even dropped back to pass. No one cares if your interpretation is that it didn't have an impact. It was a pre-snap rule violation and one that is flagged 99% of the time.
 

fatgopher said:
What happened was 9 players got set with two in motion, then player 10 gets set, but player 11 never did, which makes it a violation.
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Correct, which is what I already said, and agreed to.

There never was any player shifting. No player who went from the huddle to their set position, ever changed from that set position prior to the snap. That means there was never any shift.

fatgopher said:
It was a pre-snap rule violation and one that is flagged 99% of the time.
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You're just making up the 99% part, as far as if they actually do get flagged. You want them to get flagged 99% of the time, but likely they don't.

I'm glad this one didn't. :)
 

mailman25 said:
I've been a head coach in football for 19 years. However you interpret the play, it was illegal and should've been blown dead as soon as the ball was snapped.

If you want to say the players were shifting, then they both need to get set for a second before the snap. Play is blown dead immediately upon the snap.

If you want to say one kid was trying to get lined up correctly and the other was in motion, then you have two men moving pre-snap and that's a penalty. Play is blown dead immediately upon the snap.

I don't want to sound like I have all the answers but every coach and referee that has ever been involved with varsity football should know this. In fact, pre-snap motion and illegal shift penalties are called at all levels of football from 7th grade on up. This is not a debate like traveling or a carry in basketball. These are cut and dry rules to not allow any added advantage to the offense over the defense. It was a blown call. Its that simple.
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It was a penalty, however it is not blown dead at the snap, it is a flag at the snap.
 

Gophers_4life said:
There never was any player shifting. No player who went from the huddle to their set position, ever changed from that set position prior to the snap. That means there was never any shift.
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At no time were all eleven set, which nullifies all the effort you've made incorrectly supporting a position
 


Gophers_4life said:
Fair point.

But it's not like only Chisholm voters would control everything and be the only folks allowed on the School board. It would expand to fully include the new communities. I would think they'd go for 1/3rd from each town. Or at least half each.
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Yes, of which Chisholm would have the vast majority of votes because it's larger (tyranny of the majority).
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
Yes, of which Chisholm would have the vast majority of votes because it's larger (tyranny of the majority).
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The two secondary schools have similar sized enrollments, so I assume the towns are roughly the same number of voters.
 

Some Day...Maybe said:
It was a penalty, however it is not blown dead at the snap, it is a flag at the snap.
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I get confused between an illegal shift and an illegal motion penalty. One is a dead ball foul and the other is not. One is treated like a false start penalty and the other is not. The play we are discussing was one or the other.
 

bottom line---

there were officials on the field who were being paid to officiate the game and enforce the rules.

in MN, HS officials are evaluated during the year and the 'best' officials are chosen to work the Prep Bowl. I have friends who have officiated Prep Bowls. I know a guy who used to work as an evaluator of officials for the MSHSL.

these people are good officials. they take their jobs seriously.

Someone in that officiating crew was responsible for watching the offense for pre-snap infractions. They did not throw a flag - meaning that either #1. they did not see what happened, or #2, they saw it and did not think it was a violation.

it's over. it's done. the results of the game are final.

time to let it go and put the HS FB season to bed.

all right, now let's talk religion and politics.............
 

Gophers_4life said:
True.

Also true: there was never any shift.
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Doesn’t matter. What NLS did prior to the snap was NOT legal in any way shape or form. That makes everything done after the snap null and void as the play should not have counted. The missed call most definitely impacted the play and ultimately the winner.
For you to continue with the nonsense of it having no impact continues to show your utter lack of football knowledge.
 

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