All Things 2021 Minnesota Vikings Off-Season Thread

[MplsGopher]

^^^ 2017 was like that.

Keenum was paid nothing. He was basically paid like a rookie, and he had an amazing season.

 

[MplsGopher]

Yes, Washington fans bitched about Cousins, exactly like Viking fans are doing now. Are Washington fans happier with their post-Cousins quarterback play?

It's never going to be zero risk.

The only guaranteed way to fail: don't change from the ways that aren't working for you now.

Gotta try.

 

[RememberMurray]

It's never going to be zero risk.

The only guaranteed way to fail: don't change from the ways that aren't working for you now.

Gotta try.

Following that philosophy, then, to a logical path forward... if you were the decision-maker for the Vikings, what moves would you make heading toward the draft and the 2021 season?

 

[RememberMurray]

^^^ 2017 was like that.

Keenum was paid nothing. He was basically paid like a rookie, and he had an amazing season.

Would you have stuck with Keenum as your QB?

I mean, that team won one playoff game, via a football miracle, and then got trounced by Philadelphia.

Weren't you ready to fire the staff if they get the exact same results as that in 2021?

 

[MplsGopher]

Following that philosophy, then, to a logical path forward... if you were the decision-maker for the Vikings, what moves would you make heading toward the draft and the 2021 season?

I assume you mean 2022? I'm fine with what they're trying for 2021.

Zim even finally caved and said that teams have figured out his defense, and he needs to change up the scheme.


They're giving it a good, honest shot.

 

[MplsGopher]

Would you have stuck with Keenum as your QB?

I mean, that team won one playoff game, via a football miracle, and then got trounced by Philadelphia.

Weren't you ready to fire the staff if they get the exact same results as that in 2021?

No - as I said, if they achieve what they achieved in 2017, then they can stay.

That was what I based it off of. 13-3 and made the championship game. Remember?


They won one playoff game because they had a bye. I don't care about number of playoff game wins, hence why I said (and what I actually care about) making the conf championship.

 

[RememberMurray]

I assume you mean 2022? I'm fine with what they're trying for 2021.

Zim even finally caved and said that teams have figured out his defense, and he needs to change up the scheme.


They're giving it a good, honest shot.

Fair enough.

 

[MplsGopher]

This is just a guy throwing this out there, but ....

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I think you probably realize that the Vikings coaching staff and their management team have a higher opinion of Cousins than you have, so it seems pretty likely that Cousins is going to be our team's QB for the foreseeable future.

I think this is one of the most important things to remember. Like I said before, you could argue Cousins is a wet dream QB for a defensive minded HC like Zim. He knows what he's getting every week, drama free, accurate, durable/reliable, generally takes care of the ball, and perhaps most importantly, he's a VETERAN, and it's well, well documented how much Zim likes veteran players.

Anything close to a perfect storm on the OL; Bradbury, Cleveland and even O'Neill take steps forward and they add a viable starter in the draft and/or late free agency cap cut, and this team will be very, very good next year.

I'd love to strike it rich in the draft with a 5-10 year franchise QB more than anyone, but I'd love to hear just how anyone thinks they're going to do that, at least with any certainty of a marked improvement at the position over the current situation

 

[short ornery norwegian]

on Cousins - it's partly the 'eye test.' and it's partly that he seems to be out of touch with the trend toward more mobile QB's.

IF the Vikes had a top-10 level Offensive line, then Cousins can be the man. But, when you have a shaky OL, and a QB who is not mobile and cannot use his legs to get out of trouble, that's a bad combination.

If the Vikes were going to commit to Cousins, then they should have made improving the OL their #1 priority.

Instead, Zim just sits there like a 6-year old whining "I want more help on defense," and he gets it. While Cousins has an OL with one reasonably sure thing (O'Neil), one promising player (Cleveland) and three huge question marks.

As far as what I would have done - two choices - 1. commit to Cousins and bring in 2 or 3 top-caliber OL starters.

2. if you're not willing to do that, then trade Cousins, stock up on draft picks, and move up to draft one of the top 5 QB prospects. That might be a short-term step backwards, but I think would also position the team to move forward for the next 10 years. If Zim doesn't want to go along with the plan, then tell him thanks for everything, and move on.

 

[RememberMurray]

I'd like to see the Vikings improve the OL as well. But I will point out that the Vikings, with a much-maligned offensive line, were 5th in rushing, 14th in passing and 4th in total offense last year.

When you look objectively at those numbers, and contrast them with the defensive stats (27th in total defense), is it really that difficult to understand Zimmer's focus on improving the defense?

It also makes me wonder: if the offensive line is terrible, and Cousins is sub-par, then how did they finish 4th in total offense?

Oh, yeah... I keep forgetting that stats are overrated, and it's all about the "eye test".

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I'd like to see the Vikings improve the OL as well. But I will point out that the Vikings, with a much-maligned offensive line, were 5th in rushing, 14th in passing and 4th in total offense last year.

When you look objectively at those numbers, and contrast them with the defensive stats (27th in total defense), is it really that difficult to understand Zimmer's focus on improving the defense?

It also makes me wonder: if the offensive line is terrible, and Cousins is sub-par, then how did they finish 4th in total offense?

Oh, yeah... I keep forgetting that stats are overrated, and it's all about the "eye test".

Yup. By the way, it's worth noting, by multiple accounts, the Vikings were most certainly in on some of the better OL free agents, they just didn't land them for the number they were willing to spend. It's not like they simply targeted defense and exclusively went that route

 

[forever a gopher]

I'd like to see the Vikings improve the OL as well. But I will point out that the Vikings, with a much-maligned offensive line, were 5th in rushing, 14th in passing and 4th in total offense last year.

When you look objectively at those numbers, and contrast them with the defensive stats (27th in total defense), is it really that difficult to understand Zimmer's focus on improving the defense?

It also makes me wonder: if the offensive line is terrible, and Cousins is sub-par, then how did they finish 4th in total offense?

Oh, yeah... I keep forgetting that stats are overrated, and it's all about the "eye test".

They were 4th in total offense, but 11th in total scoring. If you’re looking at yards/game as your litmus test, the number of yards separating the 4th team (Vikes) and the middle team (16th, San Fran) is 23 yards a game.

Cousins is the QB because he was available. Competent QBs don’t often become available via free agency. With their refusal to move up and draft one, or make a blockbuster trade for a different one, he was one of their only options. Now with the contract, they don’t have too many other options.

I get what y’all are saying. Cousins is legitimately a (statically) top 1/3 QB. But just take a step back and ask “is this working”? If you’re happy with the results, then I’m happy for you, and you probably don’t need to debate anybody. But I would argue this isn’t working, so to keep repeating the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is silly.

Zim is completely stuck in his ways, and is not going to reinvent the wheel to change with the times. To expect some magical result out of that seems foolish to me.

With that said, IF the D, the OL, and Cook stay healthy, this could be a 9-10 win team. I just have no faith come crunch time in the playoffs this group of players and coaches have what it takes to get it done.

 

[RememberMurray]

They were 4th in total offense, but 11th in total scoring. If you’re looking at yards/game as your litmus test, the number of yards separating the 4th team (Vikes) and the middle team (16th, San Fran) is 23 yards a game.

Cousins is the QB because he was available. Competent QBs don’t often become available via free agency. With their refusal to move up and draft one, or make a blockbuster trade for a different one, he was one of their only options. Now with the contract, they don’t have too many other options.

I get what y’all are saying. Cousins is legitimately a (statically) top 1/3 QB. But just take a step back and ask “is this working”? If you’re happy with the results, then I’m happy for you, and you probably don’t need to debate anybody. But I would argue this isn’t working, so to keep repeating the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is silly.

Zim is completely stuck in his ways, and is not going to reinvent the wheel to change with the times. To expect some magical result out of that seems foolish to me.

With that said, IF the D, the OL, and Cook stay healthy, this could be a 9-10 win team. I just have no faith come crunch time in the playoffs this group of players and coaches have what it takes to get it done.

I can sum up my thoughts on this pretty concisely:

I have more confidence in Zimmer, Spielman, Brzezinski el al to make the right decisions for this team than I have in, say, oh, I dunno... Mackey & Judd.

I may be in the minority of Viking fans, but I think Viking coaching staff and management is/are pretty competent.

And.yes, yes, yes... they've never won The Big One!!!!! I get it.

 

[MplsGopher]

I'd like to see the Vikings improve the OL as well. But I will point out that the Vikings, with a much-maligned offensive line, were 5th in rushing, 14th in passing and 4th in total offense last year.

It's because you're trying to ignore the context of these stats.

That's Dalvin Cook. And being able to play-action off Dalvin Cook.

Plain and simple. That was in spite of the OL.

At the end of the year, when we desperately needed wins ... the OL failed us again and again. Pass protection, when we needed to throw ... was just a joke at times.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

It's because you're trying to ignore the context of these stats.

That's Dalvin Cook. And being able to play-action off Dalvin Cook.

Plain and simple. That was in spite of the OL.

At the end of the year, when we desperately needed wins ... the OL failed us again and again. Pass protection, when we needed to throw ... was just a joke at times.

Do you even think before you speak? They averaged over 32 points a game in the last 3 games down the stretch... and gave up 40 points a game. But sure, it was the offense...

 

[RememberMurray]

Do you even think before you speak? They averaged over 32 points a game in the last 3 games down the stretch... and gave up 40 points a game. But sure, it was the offense...

Yes, you've summed it up very well. But some folks just have a different view of reality, I guess.

 

[MplsGopher]

They averaged over 32 points a game in the last 3 games down the stretch... and gave up 40 points a game.

In spite of the OL. How much of that was Cousins? Worth the contract?

 

[WilliamsArenaGuy]

Do you even think before you speak? They averaged over 32 points a game in the last 3 games down the stretch... and gave up 40 points a game. But sure, it was the offense...

23,544 posts. So no, he probably doesn't. I'm amazed at how many people engage with someone with that many posts. Been on ignore forever for me.

 

[stocker08]

on Cousins - it's partly the 'eye test.' and it's partly that he seems to be out of touch with the trend toward more mobile QB's.

IF the Vikes had a top-10 level Offensive line, then Cousins can be the man. But, when you have a shaky OL, and a QB who is not mobile and cannot use his legs to get out of trouble, that's a bad combination.

If the Vikes were going to commit to Cousins, then they should have made improving the OL their #1 priority.

Instead, Zim just sits there like a 6-year old whining "I want more help on defense," and he gets it. While Cousins has an OL with one reasonably sure thing (O'Neil), one promising player (Cleveland) and three huge question marks.

As far as what I would have done - two choices - 1. commit to Cousins and bring in 2 or 3 top-caliber OL starters.

2. if you're not willing to do that, then trade Cousins, stock up on draft picks, and move up to draft one of the top 5 QB prospects. That might be a short-term step backwards, but I think would also position the team to move forward for the next 10 years. If Zim doesn't want to go along with the plan, then tell him thanks for everything, and move on.

The reason why Keenum was so successful was because he had excellent pocket presence and the ability to scramble. I don't know how many times he sensed a defender breathing down his neck and managed to escape the pocket. He played great for a guy with a lousy OL.

So when we moved from him to Cousins.....OL should have been the number one priority. Cousins is a statue. If Zim and Spielman didn't realize what they were going from....to.....then neither should still be here. #14 should be an OL in most realistic draft situations here.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Yes, you've summed it up very well. But some folks just have a different view of reality, I guess.

It feels oddly like I'm advocating hard on behalf of Cousins and I'm really not. I'd love for them to have a more dynamic player, younger, high upside, athletic, etc under center but I'm just saying, with this regime, it ain't happening unless it somehow falls into their laps.

They're not done yet, there are still some quality OL targets left in free agency, and we'll see what they do in the draft. If one of them should start to fall, trading UP for a Sewell or Slater would be a fantastic move, provided either of those guys meet their draft criteria for the position.

 

[RememberMurray]

It feels oddly like I'm advocating hard on behalf of Cousins and I'm really not. I'd love for them to have a more dynamic player, younger, high upside, athletic, etc under center but I'm just saying, with this regime, it ain't happening unless it somehow falls into their laps.

They're not done yet, there are still some quality OL targets left in free agency, and we'll see what they do in the draft. If one of them should start to fall, trading UP for a Sewell or Slater would be a fantastic move, provided either of those guys meet their draft criteria for the position.

I feel the same way.

I'd be ecstatic if the team moved on from Cousins — provided they replaced him with someone better.

And I'd love to see them upgrade the offensive line, but based on how the team performed last season I fully understand why they made moves to improve the defense first.

 

[atsgopher]

It feels oddly like I'm advocating hard on behalf of Cousins and I'm really not. I'd love for them to have a more dynamic player, younger, high upside, athletic, etc under center but I'm just saying, with this regime, it ain't happening unless it somehow falls into their laps.

They're not done yet, there are still some quality OL targets left in free agency, and we'll see what they do in the draft. If one of them should start to fall, trading UP for a Sewell or Slater would be a fantastic move, provided either of those guys meet their draft criteria for the position.

How about Micah Parsons? If he falls do you pass on him?

 

[Plausible Deniability]

How about Micah Parsons? If he falls do you pass on him?

Talent-wise, it's a no-brainer, especially because they will be in dire need of LB for 2022; I expect them to draft more than one LB. But Damn, I keep hearing rumblings of fairly significant off-field concerns for Parsons. I haven't dug into it because I'm not that interested. I would GUESS it's unlikely he ends up in purple? Whether it's because he's off the board by #14 or he's off the Vikings board due to "other issues".

I don't know that I really have a favorite at this point, barring the obvious top 6-8 talent that happens to fall. Everyone will be looking to trade down, if someone they love slides to #10-12, I'd like to see them trade up if it's worth it.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

How about Micah Parsons? If he falls do you pass on him?

Yikes!! Hard no on Parsons! Sounds like a dumpster fire off the field, had a few things at PSU. He's dropping like a rock it sounds like!

 

[atsgopher]

Yikes!! Hard no on Parsons! Sounds like a dumpster fire off the field, had a few things at PSU. He's dropping like a rock it sounds like!

Ah, hadn’t heard that. Just read runs on Qbs, WR, and OL are likely....

with multiple spots behaving like there’s likely a super talent that’ll be around.

 

[atsgopher]

Yikes!! Hard no on Parsons! Sounds like a dumpster fire off the field, had a few things at PSU. He's dropping like a rock it sounds like!

Well, I found out he got i to a fight with a CB. Kid was 18 at the time. Unless there’s something else, why not; not sure I’d want a LB that hadn’t gotten in a fight.

 

[MplsGopher]

I'd be ecstatic if the team moved on from Cousins — provided they replaced him with someone better.

Indeed, most Vikings fans feel this way.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Well, I found out he got i to a fight with a CB. Kid was 18 at the time. Unless there’s something else, why not; not sure I’d want a LB that hadn’t gotten in a fight.

I'll be curious to see what comes out in the next few weeks. This is either one of those situations where some people are trying to torch his stock so Parsons falls to them lower in the draft or there is plenty that is known but not very publicly known. I did find this quote

"plenty of off-field concerns with Micah Parsons that will likely become clear, as we inch closer to the draft season".

Who knows. This is going to be such a weird draft, there could be a million things that happen from #4-#14 where the Vikings are slated to pick. And of course we still don't know what happens in the next few weeks. Hell, the Vikings could find some money to sign a big OT like Eric Fisher.

 

[atsgopher]

I'll be curious to see what comes out in the next few weeks. This is either one of those situations where some people are trying to torch his stock so Parsons falls to them lower in the draft or there is plenty that is known but not very publicly known. I did find this quote

"plenty of off-field concerns with Micah Parsons that will likely become clear, as we inch closer to the draft season".

Who knows. This is going to be such a weird draft, there could be a million things that happen from #4-#14 where the Vikings are slated to pick. And of course we still don't know what happens in the next few weeks. Hell, the Vikings could find some money to sign a big OT like Eric Fisher.

Agreed. And I do share your concert if there is more, just not what I saw publicly available.

I kind of look at the OL as most important in Rd 1, but if there is a run on OL talent (say 3-4 picks), we probably could do just as well on day 2 that reaching. While taking whomever falls.

This draft will be for the prepared (opt outs will create some opportunities for steals on 2nd day) and next year is likely to be skewed by the additional COVID year. So stalking up on picks next year is a long term boost.