All Things 2021 Minnesota Twins In-Season Thread

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BleedGopher said:

Win Twins!!
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So LaVelle wants to give Buxton a base pay of $15mil with escalators on top of that? We can all pretend the Twins don't have a salary cap because it's baseball, but they most certainly have a self-imposed cap. They cannot afford him at that price when he doesn't play nearly often enough. Pitching is at a premium, and Berrios has been incredibly durable. Yes, they will have to pay market rate, but if they do that, they should be able to resign him. There are many instances where they've tried to sign free agents, but can't even get them to visit as everybody knows they'll probably get a crap offer from the club. So to say "let him walk" and try to get somebody else, won't necessarily be that easy. Plus, you'll have to pay that guy market rate anyway, so what's the difference? The only wildcard is if Berrios thinks he can get ace money from some desperate club. If he knows he's a solid #2, and willing to accept that kind of money, there should be no reason the Twins can't sign him.
 

forever a gopher said:
So LaVelle wants to give Buxton a base pay of $15mil with escalators on top of that? We can all pretend the Twins don't have a salary cap because it's baseball, but they most certainly have a self-imposed cap. They cannot afford him at that price when he doesn't play nearly often enough. Pitching is at a premium, and Berrios has been incredibly durable. Yes, they will have to pay market rate, but if they do that, they should be able to resign him. There are many instances where they've tried to sign free agents, but can't even get them to visit as everybody knows they'll probably get a crap offer from the club. So to say "let him walk" and try to get somebody else, won't necessarily be that easy. Plus, you'll have to pay that guy market rate anyway, so what's the difference? The only wildcard is if Berrios thinks he can get ace money from some desperate club. If he knows he's a solid #2, and willing to accept that kind of money, there should be no reason the Twins can't sign him.
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Yes, they can afford it.
 


Dump both.

You don't pay for players who can't play. Get the best package of players you can for Buxton.

Berrios won't sign with the Twins. He wants the big dollars that on free agency will provide. Dump him for the best package of prospects you can get.
 

howeda7 said:
Yes, they can afford it.
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Obviously, yes, in a vacuum the Pohlads can afford it and then-some. And yes, they CAN afford it IF he plays. It's when he's raking in $15 mil+ to sit on the IL which resulted in you not being able to sign other players that becomes the problem. In two years, Donaldson, Cruz, and Sano will be off the books, so there is that. But you have to replace them with somebody. Are the young guys good enough? If so, dump that money in the starting rotation, not fragile Buxton.
 

LaVelle has been tweeting that Berrios and his agents have shot down every offer the Twins have made. Berrios wants to go to free agency, and he wants "ace" money - $20- to $25 mill a year. You can argue over whether he's worth it, but it only takes one team willing to pay to set the going rate.

with Buxton, it's a real catch-22. due to the injuries, his trade value is diminished. I tend to agree with LaVelle on this one - offer a deal with a decent guaranteed salary and incentives based on playing time.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
LaVelle has been tweeting that Berrios and his agents have shot down every offer the Twins have made. Berrios wants to go to free agency, and he wants "ace" money - $20- to $25 mill a year. You can argue over whether he's worth it, but it only takes one team willing to pay to set the going rate.

with Buxton, it's a real catch-22. due to the injuries, his trade value is diminished. I tend to agree with LaVelle on this one - offer a deal with a decent guaranteed salary and incentives based on playing time.
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Berios has all the leverage; he's not going to get less than the Twins are offering from serious suitors.
 




short ornery norwegian said:
LaVelle has been tweeting that Berrios and his agents have shot down every offer the Twins have made. Berrios wants to go to free agency, and he wants "ace" money - $20- to $25 mill a year. You can argue over whether he's worth it, but it only takes one team willing to pay to set the going rate.

with Buxton, it's a real catch-22. due to the injuries, his trade value is diminished. I tend to agree with LaVelle on this one - offer a deal with a decent guaranteed salary and incentives based on playing time.
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Berrios isn't an ace, and 20-25 million really isn't ace money anymore. It takes 30+ million to get a real ace. He's a solid 2-3 starter on a good team, worth somewhere around 15-18 million, which the Twins can afford. Maybe someone gives him 20 million, but I think that's the max he gets.

The problem is the Twins have nothing in the system for starters that are ready next season, if they think they partially rebuild and contend. If this is a total rebuild, they need to dump everyone they can, including Buxton and take the lumps next season. If there is a season, which is also a factor.
 





GopherWeatherGuy said:
Berrios isn't an ace, and 20-25 million really isn't ace money anymore. It takes 30+ million to get a real ace. He's a solid 2-3 starter on a good team, worth somewhere around 15-18 million, which the Twins can afford. Maybe someone gives him 20 million, but I think that's the max he gets.

The problem is the Twins have nothing in the system for starters that are ready next season, if they think they partially rebuild and contend. If this is a total rebuild, they need to dump everyone they can, including Buxton and take the lumps next season. If there is a season, which is also a factor.
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I strongly disagree on your assessment.

Being an ace is a relative term, depending on the talent you've produced.

Including out 2 World Series Wins, these are our aces -

Viola
Radke
Santana

As you may have noticed, I post stuff from The Athletic, which has superior content to most daily newspapers. In one of the articles, they talked about how well Berrios' ERA was for his MLB tenure; one of the top 15 or so IIRC.

He may not be an Ace by your definition, but he is a 2 time All Star, only 27, durable, pitches competitively most outing and has a very good career ERA.

MN ain't a free agent paradise, it's not LA, NYC, Chi or Philly, it's a secondary market (albeit a nice one) and not a free agent destination - numerous recent examples back this up, such as Zach Wheeler.

If we have to over pay, then over pay - JimmyJamz MD is right and Lavelle's an idiot, as obviously a pitcher like Berrios reaps the biggest bounty since they are so few and far between, duh!!

If you read the article I posted regarding the farm help a few post up, you'll see some good arms are on the horizon.

Ober looks like a solid future 3-4 starter and Dobnak got screwed this year, he should have gotten all the starts possible that went to Shoe and they needed to flip roles; they needed to show him they believe in him as a back end rotation guy.

Signing Berrios is the priority for me over Buxton; Buck looks like Rick Fenney. As Bud told Sid,
"You need durability besides ability."
 
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GopherWeatherGuy said:
Berrios isn't an ace, and 20-25 million really isn't ace money anymore. It takes 30+ million to get a real ace. He's a solid 2-3 starter on a good team, worth somewhere around 15-18 million, which the Twins can afford. Maybe someone gives him 20 million, but I think that's the max he gets.

The problem is the Twins have nothing in the system for starters that are ready next season, if they think they partially rebuild and contend. If this is a total rebuild, they need to dump everyone they can, including Buxton and take the lumps next season. If there is a season, which is also a factor.
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I agree that Berrios isn’t an ace, but 20-25 isn’t ace money. If they could spend that much to lock him up, I’d do that deal everyday and twice on Sunday. They’re going to have to overpay a SP to get them here. At least with Berrios, we should have to only pay market rate, unless he is just that determined to leave and go somewhere like NY.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Berrios isn't an ace, and 20-25 million really isn't ace money anymore. It takes 30+ million to get a real ace. He's a solid 2-3 starter on a good team, worth somewhere around 15-18 million, which the Twins can afford. Maybe someone gives him 20 million, but I think that's the max he gets.

The problem is the Twins have nothing in the system for starters that are ready next season, if they think they partially rebuild and contend. If this is a total rebuild, they need to dump everyone they can, including Buxton and take the lumps next season. If there is a season, which is also a factor.
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He's an ace by Minnesota Twins standards. Otherwise I agree with you. He deserves #2 money.
 

Well, if there's some "good arms" coming, that sure will help. Just remember five years ago, the same people telling you about those good arms said the same thing about Jose Berrios. They also said it about Kohl Stewart. And Tyler Jay. And Alex Meyer. And Lewis Thorpe...
 

All those saying Berrios isn't an ace: see post #901.

The law of the Twins, as it's called in physics.
 

1 out of 3 pitching prospects succeeds. 1 fails due to injury, another fails due not having what it takes in the majors, the other makes it.

By prospects, I mean legitimate prospects. Not guys taking a roster spot on a minor league team.

If you project a hitter and pitcher to be equal prospects, always take the hitter.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
Berrios isn't an ace, and 20-25 million really isn't ace money anymore. It takes 30+ million to get a real ace. He's a solid 2-3 starter on a good team, worth somewhere around 15-18 million, which the Twins can afford. Maybe someone gives him 20 million, but I think that's the max he gets.

The problem is the Twins have nothing in the system for starters that are ready next season, if they think they partially rebuild and contend. If this is a total rebuild, they need to dump everyone they can, including Buxton and take the lumps next season. If there is a season, which is also a factor.
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You seem to contradict yourself a bit. If $30 million is "ace" $ (I agree), than $15-18 million is not what Berrios is worth as a solid #2. He is worth $20-25 million. The Twins went after Zach Wheeler two off-season ago. He got ~$5/$110. Berrios is worth at least that much.
 

howeda7 said:
You seem to contradict yourself a bit. If $30 million is "ace" $ (I agree), than $15-18 million is not what Berrios is worth as a solid #2. He is worth $20-25 million. The Twins went after Zach Wheeler two off-season ago. He got ~$5/$110. Berrios is worth at least that much.
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Wheeler is a fair comparison but I think he's a better pitcher than Berrios. He certainly has been this season.

You look at other guys like McCullers, Gausman, Stroman, all comparable to Berrios as well, with slightly better career numbers. They are in the 17-19 million range.
 

Highest paid MLB players in 2021 season:​

  • 1. Mike Trout, L.A. Angels, OF, $37,116,667
  • 2. Gerrit Cole, N.Y. Yankees, SP, $36,000,000
  • 4. Max Scherzer, Washington, SP, $34,503,480
  • 6. Justin Verlander, Houston, SP, $33,000,000
  • 7. Stephen Strasburg, Washington, SP, $32,045,256
  • 8. David Price, L.A. Dodgers, RP, $32,000,000
  • 9. Trevor Bauer, L.A. Dodgers, SP, $31,333,333
  • 10. Clayton Kershaw, L.A. Dodgers, SP, $31,000,001
  • 13. Zack Greinke, Houston, SP, $29,921,850
  • 16. Jacob deGrom, N.Y. Mets, SP, $28,131,95
A few more pitchers:
Zach Wheeler $22.5 mill
Yu Darvish $22 mill
Johnny Cueto $21 mill
Hyun-Jin-Ryu $20 mill
Mad Bum $19 mill
Marcus Stroman $18.9 mill
Dallas Kuechel $18 mill
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Wheeler is a fair comparison but I think he's a better pitcher than Berrios. He certainly has been this season.

You look at other guys like McCullers, Gausman, Stroman, all comparable to Berrios as well, with slightly better career numbers. They are in the 17-19 million range.
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His resume was arguably weaker when he signed the contract than Berrios' is now though.
 

short ornery norwegian said:

Highest paid MLB players in 2021 season:​

  • 1. Mike Trout, L.A. Angels, OF, $37,116,667
  • 2. Gerrit Cole, N.Y. Yankees, SP, $36,000,000
  • 4. Max Scherzer, Washington, SP, $34,503,480
  • 6. Justin Verlander, Houston, SP, $33,000,000
  • 7. Stephen Strasburg, Washington, SP, $32,045,256
  • 8. David Price, L.A. Dodgers, RP, $32,000,000
  • 9. Trevor Bauer, L.A. Dodgers, SP, $31,333,333
  • 10. Clayton Kershaw, L.A. Dodgers, SP, $31,000,001
  • 13. Zack Greinke, Houston, SP, $29,921,850
  • 16. Jacob deGrom, N.Y. Mets, SP, $28,131,95
A few more pitchers:
Zach Wheeler $22.5 mill
Yu Darvish $22 mill
Johnny Cueto $21 mill
Hyun-Jin-Ryu $20 mill
Mad Bum $19 mill
Marcus Stroman $18.9 mill
Dallas Kuechel $18 mill
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The Twins were "in on" Darvish, Wheeler and Mad Baum and had at least some interest in Kuechel. All the more reason any "the poor Twins can't afford to keep Berrios" narrative is BS.
 


howeda7 said:
His resume was arguably weaker when he signed the contract than Berrios' is now though.
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I disagree, but I think they are comparable. If someone wants to give Berrios 23 million per year, I let him walk. If we can keep him for under 20, we should sign him. The Twins can afford him, I agree with that.

The problem with Berrios is he struggles to go deep into games, and he gets worse as the season progresses. That's why he's not an ace, and that's why I wouldn't pay him 20+ million. He's 49th in the league with only 7 quality starts this season.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I disagree, but I think they are comparable. If someone wants to give Berrios 23 million per year, I let him walk. If we can keep him for under 20, we should sign him. The Twins can afford him, I agree with that.

The problem with Berrios is he struggles to go deep into games, and he gets worse as the season progresses. That's why he's not an ace, and that's why I wouldn't pay him 20+ million. He's 49th in the league with only 7 quality starts this season.
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Who are they going to sign for the same/less money who's better than Berrios?
 



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