All Things 2021-2022 Minnesota Twins Off-Season Thread

howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
59,727
Reaction score
15,381
Points
113
if Buxton stays healthy, he's worth the $.

If he doesn't stay healthy, he's not worth the $.

But how can you predict whether he'll stay healthy? going by his track record, I think you have to assume that you're lucky if he plays 60% of the season. But, he and his agents want to be paid as if he's going to play 85% or more of the season.

I'd hate to see him walk, but I'd also hate to see the Twins playing him $20 a year to rehab for half the season.

Buxton and his people should be willing to assume some of the risk, based on his injury history. But they won't. hence the conundrum.
They are assuming some of the risk. If he was durable, he'd be in line for 5 years $150 million or more. Also, he's already averaged 60% + of the season since 2016. Getting from there to 85% requires better luck/smarter play on defense, but it's not a huge stretch.

And there's no evidence they're going to take the $ saved by trading him and turn around and spend it. So I don't really care if he's slightly overpaid, any more than was the case with Mauer. The only way that matters is if we get a salary cap in the new CBA and I've heard zero steam about that happening.
 







short ornery norwegian

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
12,100
Reaction score
4,048
Points
113
I think it's a fair deal for both sides. Twins get some protection against injuries, and Buxton will have a chance to boost his salary by getting more plate appearances and finishing 10th or higher in the MVP voting. an extra $3-mill for 10th in MVP voting - If Buxton stays healthy, he's almost a shoe-in to be 10th or higher.

Still no action on pitching staff, and MLB will shut down for the lockout on Dec 1.

Now, we just have to wait to see how long it takes to come up with a new CBA, what the new rules will be, when the new season will start (assuming there is a season), and how long teams will have to make deals and prepare for the new season.

things could get really crazy if teams have to scramble to sign players, make trades, and get ready for the season.
 





howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
59,727
Reaction score
15,381
Points
113
I think it's a fair deal for both sides. Twins get some protection against injuries, and Buxton will have a chance to boost his salary by getting more plate appearances and finishing 10th or higher in the MVP voting. an extra $3-mill for 10th in MVP voting - If Buxton stays healthy, he's almost a shoe-in to be 10th or higher.

Still no action on pitching staff, and MLB will shut down for the lockout on Dec 1.

Now, we just have to wait to see how long it takes to come up with a new CBA, what the new rules will be, when the new season will start (assuming there is a season), and how long teams will have to make deals and prepare for the new season.

things could get really crazy if teams have to scramble to sign players, make trades, and get ready for the season.
They almost have to get at least one signed before Wednesday. At least bring Pineda back.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
10,152
Reaction score
4,502
Points
113
I will agree that 11 million is low. I wouldn't pay more than 15 million per year based on his accomplishments/injury history. It's not like Buxton would be the first player with superstar talent that just never pans out because he can't stay healthy.

I guess I wasn't too far off
 


Gopher_In_NYC

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
6,528
Reaction score
4,118
Points
113
I think it's a fair deal for both sides. Twins get some protection against injuries, and Buxton will have a chance to boost his salary by getting more plate appearances and finishing 10th or higher in the MVP voting. an extra $3-mill for 10th in MVP voting - If Buxton stays healthy, he's almost a shoe-in to be 10th or higher.

Still no action on pitching staff, and MLB will shut down for the lockout on Dec 1.

Now, we just have to wait to see how long it takes to come up with a new CBA, what the new rules will be, when the new season will start (assuming there is a season), and how long teams will have to make deals and prepare for the new season.

things could get really crazy if teams have to scramble to sign players, make trades, and get ready for the season.
Key to get this done before the lockdown and first as the following follows -

Shows everybody(in and outside the clubhouse) that we'll retain top flight talent when it is a fit for us; i.e. Mauer 2.
Pitching wise, makes it much more appealing knowing B squared will be running them down in the OF when you're on the mound.
Gotta be great for team morale and not to have that albatross hanging over the club's neck all season long.
 



Gopher_In_NYC

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
6,528
Reaction score
4,118
Points
113
Hot out of my inbox bros (the bolded parts are bananas especially when you see what the Mets gave 33 year old Sterling Marte = 78M for 4 years/19.5m year - so if anyone complains about this they are just bitchin to bitch or an ignoramus) -

Byron Buxton’s $100 million extension with the Twins and how a no-trade clause made it happen


Byron Buxton didn’t need more years. He didn’t require a bigger base salary. Incentives for performance and playing time weren’t his sole motivation, either.

When it came to completing what some had described as a next-to-impossible contract extension with the Twins, a major-league source said Buxton’s top priority was obtaining a full no-trade clause.

After declining to offer it in previous negotiations, the Twins included the sweetener during this round of talks.
Once the clause was incorporated, Buxton and the Twins finalized an incentive-heavy seven-year deal worth at least $100 million Sunday, sources confirmed. The deal, which includes bonuses for elite performance and plate appearances, is pending a physical exam.

In agreeing to the deal, Buxton, who turns 28 next month, bypassed an opportunity to become a free agent after the 2022 season at what could be the peak of his career. Buxton belted a career-high 19 home runs and hit .306/.358/.647 in 254 plate appearances this past season.

But Buxton, the No. 2 pick of the 2012 amateur draft and one of the most talented players to ever wear a Twins jersey, set the tone back in March when he acknowledged wanting an extension and discussed his desire to play for one team for his entire career.

“I’ve been blessed to stay with this one team in my career,” Buxton said. “To be able to put on this (uniform for my entire) career and go out there every day, it’s something that many guys can’t do.

“I want to be one of those guys that was there with that one team. This place just means a lot.”

Buxton and the Twins have broached the possibility of an extension repeatedly over the past three years. Both sides had expressed a desire to keep Buxton in a Twins uniform for the rest of his career. Earlier this month, Twins general manager Thad Levine described Buxton, who produced 4.5 wins above replacement last season in 61 games — the most WAR produced since 1900 by anyone who played fewer than 70 games — as the type of player a franchise aspires to build around.




But getting there wouldn’t be so simple.

The Twins had obvious concerns about overextending themselves for a player who has played in only 50 percent of the team’s games since 2017. They were afraid to get locked into a bad contract if Buxton were to continue to get hurt and miss significant amounts of playing time.

On the other side, Buxton’s representatives didn’t want to sign an extension that left their client vastly underpaid were he to develop into the type of superstar everyone hopes he can become.

This deal addresses both parties’ concerns in unique fashion.

The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal reports that Buxton will receive a $1 million signing bonus and will earn $9 million in 2022. Buxton will then earn a $15 million base salary each season from 2023 to 2028.

He also earns what are believed to be “unprecedented MVP bonuses” for each year of the deal that range from $3 million to $8 million depending upon how high he finishes in voting.

Beyond that, Buxton can earn an additional $500,000 per season for reaching each of 502, 533, 567, 600 and 625 plate appearances.

Any nine-figure contract carries considerable risk, and Buxton’s extensive injury history magnifies that element of the deal, but that’s already factored into a $15 million annual salary that’s far from star-level pay.

Last season, 71 players across MLB were paid more than $15 million, including Josh Donaldson, who led the Twins with a $21 million salary. Andrelton Simmons, Miguel Sanó, Michael Pineda and Nelson Cruz were also paid at least $10 million by the Twins in 2021.

Consider that Joe Mauer got $23 million per season in the extension he signed with the Twins in 2010. Since then the average MLB salary has increased by 40 percent, yet Buxton will make 35 percent less than Mauer annually. By today’s standards, Buxton will be paid like a good regular, not a superstar or even a star, and the injury risk is the only reason his price tag wasn’t twice as high.

What does $15 million per season buy on the open market? Less than you’d probably think. This offseason’s top free-agent center fielder, 33-year-old Starling Marte, just signed a four-year deal for $20 million per season. Last offseason’s top center fielder, 31-year-old George Springer, signed a six-year deal for $25 million per season. B.J. Upton got a five-year deal for $15 million per season a decade ago.

Buxton will be paid like a second-tier center fielder, yet he’s demonstrated as much upside as anyone in baseball. Not only did Buxton finish with a 1.005 OPS last season, but he also hit a combined .277/.321/.575 during the past three seasons, fourth best among MLB center fielders. Buxton is also one of the best, if not the best, defensive center fielders in the game and an elite base runner.

On a per-game basis, Mike Trout is baseball’s best player since 2019, averaging 7.8 WAR per 150 games. Buxton is second with 7.7 WAR, followed by superstars Fernando Tatis Jr. (7.5), Aaron Judge (6.9), Mookie Betts (6.9) and Carlos Correa (6.5). Trout, Tatis Jr. and Betts each have deals in excess of $300 million, and Correa is a free agent in line for at least $200 million.

So yes, Buxton has been hurt a ton, but he’s developed into such a spectacular all-around player that he’s been worth far more than $15 million per year even while missing huge chunks of time. Last season, for instance, he was limited to 61 games, yet produced 4.5 WAR, fourth-most among all center fielders. Based on a standard WAR valuation, he was worth about $40 million in 2021.

Buxton totaled 2.1 WAR in the 60-game 2020 season, equivalent to 5.7 WAR worth roughly $45 million in a normal year. He produced 3.0 WAR across just 87 games in 2019, worth around $25 million. He was injured and ineffective in 2018, but in 2017 he played a career-high 140 games and totaled 4.9 WAR for a valuation of about $40 million.

Not only has he been worth at least $15 million in four of the past five seasons, but if Buxton had been paid $15 million in each of those years, he’d have generated roughly $65 million in excess value. Overall during that five-year span, Buxton was worth $50 million per 150 games. Or, viewed another way, it took Buxton an average of just 50 games to provide $15 million in value from 2017 to 2021.

That’s basically what the Twins are paying for in this extension: 50 games per season of Buxton playing like he has since 2017 or even fewer games than that based on his more recent performances. Many reactions to this deal boil down to “it’ll only be worth it if he plays 125 games a year.” But in reality, 125 games of Buxton is likely to be worth double what the Twins are now paying him.




That’s why, despite a lengthy injury history and no assurances that will change, the Twins are taking less of a risk here than it may appear. Buxton needs only to continue doing what he’s been doing — injuries included — to be worth his salaries and then some. Any season in which he’s able to stay healthy for even 100 games, the Twins could get superstar-level value for average-regular prices.

And the Twins would be thrilled to have to pay those sizable incentives because it will have meant Buxton avoided injuries and had an amazing season. If, for instance, he were to max out his incentives in a given year by topping 625 plate appearances and being voted AL MVP, his total compensation would rise from $15 million to $25.5 million, a bargain price for the league’s best player.

As much as both sides negotiated to complete the deal, none of it would have mattered without the no-trade clause. Buxton likes the idea of one day seeing his number retired alongside other Twins greats such as Mauer, Rod Carew, Harmon Killebrew and Kirby Puckett. Buxton wants to buy a home and establish roots in the community with his family.

That desire has allowed Buxton to work through potentially disastrous situations that can sour a relationship between a player and a club. Not only did Buxton have to discuss a failed round of contract negotiations in July, but a week later he also heard his name mentioned in rumors as the team shopped him before the July 30 trade deadline. Buxton shrugged it off and said he hoped his representatives and the team would sit down again this offseason.

That uneasiness came just shy of three years after the Twins upset Buxton’s camp when they failed to promote him in September 2018, a move that brought about concerns of service-time manipulation. By sending Buxton home that month instead of promoting him from Triple A, the Twins pushed back the outfielder’s free agency from the end of 2021 to 2022. Through it all, Buxton has remained steadfast that he wanted to be with the Twins for the rest of his career. Once they made clear that was their desire, too, he quickly agreed.

“Obviously (leaving has) crossed my mind, but it’s nothing I’ve worried about,” Buxton said in September. “The only uniform I know is the Minnesota Twins. It’s the only thing I really cared about. As far as contracts and stuff, I’m in a Twins uniform. At the end of next year, I’ll see how that goes.”
 
Last edited:

BleedGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
54,170
Reaction score
4,528
Points
113
Hot out of my inbox bros (the bolded parts are bananas especially when you see what the Mets gave 33 year old Sterling Marte = 78M for 4 years/19.5m year - so if anyone complains about this they are just bitchin to bitch or an ignoramus) -

Byron Buxton’s $100 million extension with the Twins and how a no-trade clause made it happen


Byron Buxton didn’t need more years. He didn’t require a bigger base salary. Incentives for performance and playing time weren’t his sole motivation, either.

When it came to completing what some had described as a next-to-impossible contract extension with the Twins, a major-league source said Buxton’s top priority was obtaining a full no-trade clause.

After declining to offer it in previous negotiations, the Twins included the sweetener during this round of talks.
Once the clause was incorporated, Buxton and the Twins finalized an incentive-heavy seven-year deal worth at least $100 million Sunday, sources confirmed. The deal, which includes bonuses for elite performance and plate appearances, is pending a physical exam.

In agreeing to the deal, Buxton, who turns 28 next month, bypassed an opportunity to become a free agent after the 2022 season at what could be the peak of his career. Buxton belted a career-high 19 home runs and hit .306/.358/.647 in 254 plate appearances this past season.

But Buxton, the No. 2 pick of the 2012 amateur draft and one of the most talented players to ever wear a Twins jersey, set the tone back in March when he acknowledged wanting an extension and discussed his desire to play for one team for his entire career.

“I’ve been blessed to stay with this one team in my career,” Buxton said. “To be able to put on this (uniform for my entire) career and go out there every day, it’s something that many guys can’t do.

“I want to be one of those guys that was there with that one team. This place just means a lot.”

Buxton and the Twins have broached the possibility of an extension repeatedly over the past three years. Both sides had expressed a desire to keep Buxton in a Twins uniform for the rest of his career. Earlier this month, Twins general manager Thad Levine described Buxton, who produced 4.5 wins above replacement last season in 61 games — the most WAR produced since 1900 by anyone who played fewer than 70 games — as the type of player a franchise aspires to build around.




But getting there wouldn’t be so simple.

The Twins had obvious concerns about overextending themselves for a player who has played in only 50 percent of the team’s games since 2017. They were afraid to get locked into a bad contract if Buxton were to continue to get hurt and miss significant amounts of playing time.

On the other side, Buxton’s representatives didn’t want to sign an extension that left their client vastly underpaid were he to develop into the type of superstar everyone hopes he can become.

This deal addresses both parties’ concerns in unique fashion.

The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal reports that Buxton will receive a $1 million signing bonus and will earn $9 million in 2022. Buxton will then earn a $15 million base salary each season from 2023 to 2028.

He also earns what are believed to be “unprecedented MVP bonuses” for each year of the deal that range from $3 million to $8 million depending upon how high he finishes in voting.

Beyond that, Buxton can earn an additional $500,000 per season for reaching each of 502, 533, 567, 600 and 625 plate appearances.

Any nine-figure contract carries considerable risk, and Buxton’s extensive injury history magnifies that element of the deal, but that’s already factored into a $15 million annual salary that’s far from star-level pay.

Last season, 71 players across MLB were paid more than $15 million, including Josh Donaldson, who led the Twins with a $21 million salary. Andrelton Simmons, Miguel Sanó, Michael Pineda and Nelson Cruz were also paid at least $10 million by the Twins in 2021.

Consider that Joe Mauer got $23 million per season in the extension he signed with the Twins in 2010. Since then the average MLB salary has increased by 40 percent, yet Buxton will make 35 percent less than Mauer annually. By today’s standards, Buxton will be paid like a good regular, not a superstar or even a star, and the injury risk is the only reason his price tag wasn’t twice as high.

What does $15 million per season buy on the open market? Less than you’d probably think. This offseason’s top free-agent center fielder, 33-year-old Starling Marte, just signed a four-year deal for $20 million per season. Last offseason’s top center fielder, 31-year-old George Springer, signed a six-year deal for $25 million per season. B.J. Upton got a five-year deal for $15 million per season a decade ago.

Buxton will be paid like a second-tier center fielder, yet he’s demonstrated as much upside as anyone in baseball. Not only did Buxton finish with a 1.005 OPS last season, but he also hit a combined .277/.321/.575 during the past three seasons, fourth best among MLB center fielders. Buxton is also one of the best, if not the best, defensive center fielders in the game and an elite base runner.

On a per-game basis, Mike Trout is baseball’s best player since 2019, averaging 7.8 WAR per 150 games. Buxton is second with 7.7 WAR, followed by superstars Fernando Tatis Jr. (7.5), Aaron Judge (6.9), Mookie Betts (6.9) and Carlos Correa (6.5). Trout, Tatis Jr. and Betts each have deals in excess of $300 million, and Correa is a free agent in line for at least $200 million.

So yes, Buxton has been hurt a ton, but he’s developed into such a spectacular all-around player that he’s been worth far more than $15 million per year even while missing huge chunks of time. Last season, for instance, he was limited to 61 games, yet produced 4.5 WAR, fourth-most among all center fielders. Based on a standard WAR valuation, he was worth about $40 million in 2021.

Buxton totaled 2.1 WAR in the 60-game 2020 season, equivalent to 5.7 WAR worth roughly $45 million in a normal year. He produced 3.0 WAR across just 87 games in 2019, worth around $25 million. He was injured and ineffective in 2018, but in 2017 he played a career-high 140 games and totaled 4.9 WAR for a valuation of about $40 million.

Not only has he been worth at least $15 million in four of the past five seasons, but if Buxton had been paid $15 million in each of those years, he’d have generated roughly $65 million in excess value. Overall during that five-year span, Buxton was worth $50 million per 150 games. Or, viewed another way, it took Buxton an average of just 50 games to provide $15 million in value from 2017 to 2021.

That’s basically what the Twins are paying for in this extension: 50 games per season of Buxton playing like he has since 2017 or even fewer games than that based on his more recent performances. Many reactions to this deal boil down to “it’ll only be worth it if he plays 125 games a year.” But in reality, 125 games of Buxton is likely to be worth double what the Twins are now paying him.




That’s why, despite a lengthy injury history and no assurances that will change, the Twins are taking less of a risk here than it may appear. Buxton needs only to continue doing what he’s been doing — injuries included — to be worth his salaries and then some. Any season in which he’s able to stay healthy for even 100 games, the Twins could get superstar-level value for average-regular prices.

And the Twins would be thrilled to have to pay those sizable incentives because it will have meant Buxton avoided injuries and had an amazing season. If, for instance, he were to max out his incentives in a given year by topping 625 plate appearances and being voted AL MVP, his total compensation would rise from $15 million to $25.5 million, a bargain price for the league’s best player.

As much as both sides negotiated to complete the deal, none of it would have mattered without the no-trade clause. Buxton likes the idea of one day seeing his number retired alongside other Twins greats such as Mauer, Rod Carew, Harmon Killebrew and Kirby Puckett. Buxton wants to buy a home and establish roots in the community with his family.

That desire has allowed Buxton to work through potentially disastrous situations that can sour a relationship between a player and a club. Not only did Buxton have to discuss a failed round of contract negotiations in July, but a week later he also heard his name mentioned in rumors as the team shopped him before the July 30 trade deadline. Buxton shrugged it off and said he hoped his representatives and the team would sit down again this offseason.

That uneasiness came just shy of three years after the Twins upset Buxton’s camp when they failed to promote him in September 2018, a move that brought about concerns of service-time manipulation. By sending Buxton home that month instead of promoting him from Triple A, the Twins pushed back the outfielder’s free agency from the end of 2021 to 2022. Through it all, Buxton has remained steadfast that he wanted to be with the Twins for the rest of his career. Once they made clear that was their desire, too, he quickly agreed.

“Obviously (leaving has) crossed my mind, but it’s nothing I’ve worried about,” Buxton said in September. “The only uniform I know is the Minnesota Twins. It’s the only thing I really cared about. As far as contracts and stuff, I’m in a Twins uniform. At the end of next year, I’ll see how that goes.”

Fantastic article, thanks for posting.

The front office appears to have done a masterful job with this contract.

Win Twins!!
 

Gopher_In_NYC

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
6,528
Reaction score
4,118
Points
113
Fantastic article, thanks for posting.
👍
The front office appears to have done a masterful job with this contract
now I have confidence and they were where they needed to be with the money and held back on the no-trade (like they should have)until they had to play that card - so no extra dough to sweeten the deal and Buck plants his flag with us for good😃
Can’t wait to see where we end up with SS and P and please don’t let the CBA not get done - I’m ready for some ball now!
Win Twins!!
 

jamiche

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
22,999
Reaction score
3,091
Points
113
I think it's a good deal. He's going to have to trust that the Twins won't "rest" him excessively late in non contending seasons to lower his MVP and at bats bonus potential.
 

short ornery norwegian

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
12,100
Reaction score
4,048
Points
113
today's the deadline for tendering or non-tendering players. Twins have some decisions to make.

I've seen a few writers suggest that the Twins are staying away from the free-agent market because they would rather acquire players through trades.

Of course, that all depends on when the season actually begins and when deals can be made.
 



howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
59,727
Reaction score
15,381
Points
113
today's the deadline for tendering or non-tendering players. Twins have some decisions to make.

I've seen a few writers suggest that the Twins are staying away from the free-agent market because they would rather acquire players through trades.

Of course, that all depends on when the season actually begins and when deals can be made.
I can't believe there's speculation on non-tendering Taylor Rogers or Arreaz. You keep both. Not even close. I'll be steamed if they let either go unless Rogers injury is much worse than we know.
 


short ornery norwegian

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
12,100
Reaction score
4,048
Points
113
If you missed it -

Tyler Duffey signed a 1-year contract for $3.8 million.
Caleb Thielbar signed a 1-year contract for $1.3 million.
Pitcher Jharel Cotton, claimed off waivers from the Rangers, signed for $700,000.

Taylor Rogers, Mitch Garver and Luis Arraez were each offered contracts by Tuesday's 7 p.m. deadline. If the Twins can't come to terms, the three players can file for salary arbitration.

Contracts were not offered to relievers Juan Minaya and Danny Coulombe.

And Wednesday, the Twins signed a 1-year, $5 million deal with RH starter Dylan Bundy. Bundy was the #4 pick in the draft a few years back, but has struggled in his MLB career. Career record 46-57 with a 4.72 ERA. He has really been hurt by the HR ball - gave up 20 HR in 90 IP last year.......

Oh - and the relief pitcher they claimed from the Cubs was released. this is a procedural move. if he's not on the 40-man roster, he can go to Florida and work out with the minor-league staff during the lockout.
 

howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
59,727
Reaction score
15,381
Points
113
If you missed it -

Tyler Duffey signed a 1-year contract for $3.8 million.
Caleb Thielbar signed a 1-year contract for $1.3 million.
Pitcher Jharel Cotton, claimed off waivers from the Rangers, signed for $700,000.

Taylor Rogers, Mitch Garver and Luis Arraez were each offered contracts by Tuesday's 7 p.m. deadline. If the Twins can't come to terms, the three players can file for salary arbitration.

Contracts were not offered to relievers Juan Minaya and Danny Coulombe.

And Wednesday, the Twins signed a 1-year, $5 million deal with RH starter Dylan Bundy. Bundy was the #4 pick in the draft a few years back, but has struggled in his MLB career. Career record 46-57 with a 4.72 ERA. He has really been hurt by the HR ball - gave up 20 HR in 90 IP last year.......

Oh - and the relief pitcher they claimed from the Cubs was released. this is a procedural move. if he's not on the 40-man roster, he can go to Florida and work out with the minor-league staff during the lockout.
I don't understand why they didn't keep Minaya. He was very good last year and would have cost around $1 million at most. Even with some regression I'd keep him.
 

forever a gopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
2,049
Reaction score
1,290
Points
113
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id...ays-union-proposals-damage-small-market-teams

So they're sitting here pissing at each other over age of arbitration and length of initial team control of a player. Manfred's retort is that it'll hurt small market teams. OK, so just institute a freaking hard salary cap, or at least a soft one with much harsher luxury taxes. What exactly am I missing that baseball thinks it needs to be different than all the other sports in this sense? Is it just one of the longstanding "well, baseball has always been this way, and we hate change" things? Or is there some legitimate reason why it doesn't make sense?

I just don't understand how this needs to be so damn complicated. You have teams like the Rays and the Pirates that seem to have a competition on trying to spend as little as possible. Then you have teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers that seemingly have a competition on trying to outspend each other. Both sides aren't good for the sport.

Yet, in other sports like the NFL, teams in those cities are essentially on par with each other due to the salary cap. The Steelers and Bucs are at essentially the same footing as the Giants, Jets, Chargers, Rams, etc. from an opportunity aspect. Some of those teams make crap choices, which limits them, but they all have the same opportunity. The Pirates and the Yankees do not have the same opportunity. Fix it so they do. Institute a hard cap (or soft cap with VERY aggressive luxury taxes to be paid to the "poors" of the league). Then also institute a bottom cap, so each team HAS to spend a certain amount of money, or they pay the difference (if underspending) back to the MLB as a poor tax (essentially the reverse as a luxury tax) if they choose to go too cheap. Or if you don't spend a certain amount of money over the course of say, 5 years, you get your team contracted or the option for somebody else to buy them. Allowing the Pirates to spend $35mil on total salary in a year is a crime against those fans and makes the game crappier for not only those fans, but all fans.

This is the spread of payrolls in 2021:
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

That isn't good for the game. Make a salary cap of like 125% of team average and floor of 75% of team average from the year prior. For 2022 (based on 2021 numbers) would mean that the cap would be $150 mil, and the floor would be $90 mil. Everybody should be able to work within those limits. Roughly the same total amount of money is going to be spent on player salary, but it's more evenly distributed by team.
 

howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
59,727
Reaction score
15,381
Points
113
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id...ays-union-proposals-damage-small-market-teams

So they're sitting here pissing at each other over age of arbitration and length of initial team control of a player. Manfred's retort is that it'll hurt small market teams. OK, so just institute a freaking hard salary cap, or at least a soft one with much harsher luxury taxes. What exactly am I missing that baseball thinks it needs to be different than all the other sports in this sense? Is it just one of the longstanding "well, baseball has always been this way, and we hate change" things? Or is there some legitimate reason why it doesn't make sense?

I just don't understand how this needs to be so damn complicated. You have teams like the Rays and the Pirates that seem to have a competition on trying to spend as little as possible. Then you have teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers that seemingly have a competition on trying to outspend each other. Both sides aren't good for the sport.

Yet, in other sports like the NFL, teams in those cities are essentially on par with each other due to the salary cap. The Steelers and Bucs are at essentially the same footing as the Giants, Jets, Chargers, Rams, etc. from an opportunity aspect. Some of those teams make crap choices, which limits them, but they all have the same opportunity. The Pirates and the Yankees do not have the same opportunity. Fix it so they do. Institute a hard cap (or soft cap with VERY aggressive luxury taxes to be paid to the "poors" of the league). Then also institute a bottom cap, so each team HAS to spend a certain amount of money, or they pay the difference (if underspending) back to the MLB as a poor tax (essentially the reverse as a luxury tax) if they choose to go too cheap. Or if you don't spend a certain amount of money over the course of say, 5 years, you get your team contracted or the option for somebody else to buy them. Allowing the Pirates to spend $35mil on total salary in a year is a crime against those fans and makes the game crappier for not only those fans, but all fans.

This is the spread of payrolls in 2021:
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

That isn't good for the game. Make a salary cap of like 125% of team average and floor of 75% of team average from the year prior. For 2022 (based on 2021 numbers) would mean that the cap would be $150 mil, and the floor would be $90 mil. Everybody should be able to work within those limits. Roughly the same total amount of money is going to be spent on player salary, but it's more evenly distributed by team.
I would love a hard cap, but MLB is never going to share revenue the way the NFL does. It's much more reliant on local revenue than any of the other sports. The players want the luxury tax threshhold raised to like $240 million, so they will not go along with a hard cap.
 

Gopher_In_NYC

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
6,528
Reaction score
4,118
Points
113
If you missed it -

Tyler Duffey signed a 1-year contract for $3.8 million.
Caleb Thielbar signed a 1-year contract for $1.3 million.
Pitcher Jharel Cotton, claimed off waivers from the Rangers, signed for $700,000.

Taylor Rogers, Mitch Garver and Luis Arraez were each offered contracts by Tuesday's 7 p.m. deadline. If the Twins can't come to terms, the three players can file for salary arbitration.

Contracts were not offered to relievers Juan Minaya and Danny Coulombe.

And Wednesday, the Twins signed a 1-year, $5 million deal with RH starter Dylan Bundy. Bundy was the #4 pick in the draft a few years back, but has struggled in his MLB career. Career record 46-57 with a 4.72 ERA. He has really been hurt by the HR ball - gave up 20 HR in 90 IP last year.......

Oh - and the relief pitcher they claimed from the Cubs was released. this is a procedural move. if he's not on the 40-man roster, he can go to Florida and work out with the minor-league staff during the lockout.
Thanks SON
 

forever a gopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
2,049
Reaction score
1,290
Points
113
I would love a hard cap, but MLB is never going to share revenue the way the NFL does. It's much more reliant on local revenue than any of the other sports. The players want the luxury tax threshhold raised to like $240 million, so they will not go along with a hard cap.
Of course, the NFL, NHL, and NBA are all doing better than the MLB. I know there are other reasons, but MLB is insistent that it's solely because kids on their phones have too short of attention spans, and that pace of play will cure all. You don't think interest in baseball would perk up in many cities if talent was more evenly distributed, and "small market" teams like the Pirates weren't essentially eliminated from playoff contention in August (or realistically, even earlier)? And no, just adding playoff teams and watering that down doesn't cure your problems either, baseball.

Funny we don't use the "small market" term/crutch in those other leagues, either... Yes, it may be harder to get a free agent to sign with the Wolves than LA, but the market size only is a part of it.

Having a hard cap and floor would also spread the salaries a bit better amongst players. IMO, you'd see the mega deals lessen (as the big market teams couldn't just outspend everybody on the top FA's), while the pay at the bottom rung and middle rung would go up. I know I'm pissing in the wind, but damn is it frustrating because to ensure long term health (which is hurting right now), they have to realize parity helps the sport and builds viewership and interest. But of course, it's a lot like politics - why would I vote for something that helps long term, but maybe has a pain to it in the short term when all I care about is getting re-elected in 2-4 years? Sometimes you have to pay the piper ahead of time to reap long term rewards.
 

TruthSeeker

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
5,766
Reaction score
2,240
Points
113
The union will never go for a harder cap, and they shouldn't. It restrains pay.

MLB owners have seen revenue and profit soar while wages have been stagnant.

The players are absolutely right about their stance on pay and service time.

The owners need to give a lot on luxury tax, service time until free agency, and arbitration eligibility.

The players need to accept pace of play changes.

Both need to drop the playoffs back to 8 teams.
 

howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
59,727
Reaction score
15,381
Points
113
The union will never go for a harder cap, and they shouldn't. It restrains pay.

MLB owners have seen revenue and profit soar while wages have been stagnant.

The players are absolutely right about their stance on pay and service time.

The owners need to give a lot on luxury tax, service time until free agency, and arbitration eligibility.

The players need to accept pace of play changes.

Both need to drop the playoffs back to 8 teams.
A lower luxury tax threshold in exchange for a floor would not be bad for the players. Getting the A's and Rays to spend more will also prompt the Yankees and the Angels to spend more.

I don't see what the players are really "giving" by agreeing to pace of play adjustments, but they need to happen either way.

There's zero chance the play-offs are going backwards. They will go at least to 6 teams per league. Hopefully no further than that.
 




Top Bottom