Philip Nelson Is Leaving The Gopher Program UPDATED 1/29: Transferring to Rutgers

[skauma]

I certainly was hoping Nelson would find his mojo but he took his talents to Rutgers. Perhaps he will improve dramatically with a change of scenery and coaching, but I'm skeptical .

The list of sub-par qbs that transfer in college or are traded/picked up as free agents in the nfl AND go on to resurrect their careers to become top-level starters is very small.

I can't really think of anyone off the top of my head. Can anyone else (serious question)?

There were obviously frustrations on both sides. I also suspect (but can't prove) nelson was not popular in the locker room. When the coach has to come out and publicly talk about how someone is improving as a leader that's a red flag to me. A combination of not playing well, frustration with play calls, personnel (receivers), coaching heat/friction, and not having good chemistry with the team probably contributed to his unwise decision to transfer. I'm sure Nelson Sr. was in his ear as well.

He made a bad decision, and should have tried to overcome his problems in MN.

Off the top of my head, Ryan Mallett never really did anything at Michigan, and then did tremendous when he transferred to Arkansas.

And on the NFL side, just recently, the guy who has been thought to be the epitome of average for the longest time, Alex Smith, had a very good year in KC.

 

[Iceland12]

Off the top of my head, Ryan Mallett never really did anything at Michigan, and then did tremendous when he transferred to Arkansas.

And on the NFL side, just recently, the guy who has been thought to be the epitome of average for the longest time, Alex Smith, had a very good year in KC.

How about Troy Aikman going from Oklahoma to UCLA?

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Nelson did progress in my opinion. Not by leaps and bounds but he was better as a sophomore than he was as a frosh. I suspect he would've been a little better next year. Kill hasn't really worked with any QBs for very long on this team. I don't think an opinion can really be formed yet.

If Nelson had stayed, and redshirted 2014, he would have likely been a pretty good looking QB option in 2015 and 2016. A year to sit out and watch, learn, get stronger, older, more mature.

When he sits out this year at Rutgers and does the same thing, watch, learn, get stronger, older, more mature, he'll have a chance to look good at Rutgers too.

Point being, IF he develops into a solid QB at Rutgers, it in NO way means he would have been as good for the Gophers in '14 and '15. But people will attempt to connect those dots.

 

[Winnipegopher]

Thing is, every team needs depth. Somehow the Gophers have to stop having QBs transfer. Other positions don't transfer as soon as they drop on the depth chart.

 

[kisarazu]

I'm tempted to investigate player transfer numbers more deeply. But I have a hunch that QBs transfer more often than other positions.

Something I found so far.

 

[60's Guy]

Track Record

Coach Kill and Coach Z have had pretty good success with quarterbacks. It's 2014. I don't think many of you realize
how parents have changed. Shortell's and Phillip's dad's were very much in their sons ears and very much instrumental in their sons leaving. It doesn't matter if Lombardi or Wooden are coaching you...if you won't listen, won't believe, don't buy in, they can't coach you. Many people on here noticed Phillips bad body language. He was not happy. It is better he is gone despite the depth issue.

He has talent. Maybe he'll blossom at Rutgers and maybe he'll get beat out there too? Us Questioning the coaches makes it harder to recruit. On the inside it also erodes that trust that is absolutely essential to being able to effectively coach someone here. If a player has to think about or question whether he should do what the coach is asking, it's not going to work. Dad's absolutely influence this in 2014. You wonder why kids don't get better? It's easy, they don't really listen to coaches.

Sure, many do what they're told but they are not ALL IN. And as a result they never get any better and somebody who is listening passes them up. And those on the outside ask why? The replacement has no talent we say. So and so is soo much better. All true but he doesn't listen, he's not accountable, so no he is not better. You need everybody pulling in the same direction.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Mallet was thrown to the dogs in his true freshman year. He was a top 5 national recruit. He transferred out and did well at AR after sitting a year. No argument. I'm not sure it's a good comparison as he wasn't a multi year starter at Mich. What about Steven threat and Tate Forcier, how did they do at their new schools? As an aside, I think the Yikes should take a long look at Mallett this offseason. If he gets it right upstairs he has some talent and potential.

Alex Smith has gotten better and it only took him 7 or 8 years. He really had turned the corner at SF but lost out to the Kaepernick dual threat explosion after getting hurt. He was phenomenal at Utah in the Urban Meyer offense - happy he's made a good career in the NFL. Seems like a good guy.

Aikman, really? We need to go back 25 years? I'm not familiar with his early college years -he stunk it up?

 

[Catechol]

And it really stinks that he is transferring, and also that he decided to seek out and pay for private training after choosing to leave the program - why not before?

I thought part of Nelson's frustration was that Kill did not want him to go to QB camp because he was needed to lead captain's practices or whatever they're called.

In that sense, taking on that role so early and starting as a true frosh, he probably had less time to develop his actual throwing mechanics than Leidner.

 

[Coolew01]

I certainly was hoping Nelson would find his mojo but he took his talents to Rutgers. Perhaps he will improve dramatically with a change of scenery and coaching, but I'm skeptical .

The list of sub-par qbs that transfer in college or are traded/picked up as free agents in the nfl AND go on to resurrect their careers to become top-level starters is very small.

I can't really think of anyone off the top of my head. Can anyone else (serious question)?

There were obviously frustrations on both sides. I also suspect (but can't prove) nelson was not popular in the locker room. When the coach has to come out and publicly talk about how someone is improving as a leader that's a red flag to me. A combination of not playing well, frustration with play calls, personnel (receivers), coaching heat/friction, and not having good chemistry with the team probably contributed to his unwise decision to transfer. I'm sure Nelson Sr. was in his ear as well.

He made a bad decision, and should have tried to overcome his problems in MN.

Rich Gannon?

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Gannon definitely got better after being a journeyman for 10 years. Incidentally, how mediocre is the history of vikings QBs? For the last generation has been a revolving door for so many years with a few bright spots mixed in (I liked George, Cunningham, early Culepper, and hard to say it but farve was pretty good when healthy).

Gannon resembles Alex Smith in a lot of ways, seem like similar players and styles. Lets face it, most qbs are never given the opportunities if they don't impress in their first stop. Look for the vikes to reach for some college qb in the draft instead of trading for an experienced qb...maybe it will work out this time.

So, those are a few examples. Players can get better, but seems to take many years in the right system with the right coaches.

 

[Coolew01]

Gannon definitely got better after being a journeyman for 10 years. Incidentally, how mediocre is the history of vikings QBs? For the last generation has been a revolving door for so many years with a few bright spots mixed in (I liked George, Cunningham, early Culepper, and hard to say it but farve was pretty good when healthy).

Gannon resembles Alex Smith in a lot of ways, seem like similar players and styles. Lets face it, most qbs are never given the opportunities if they don't impress in their first stop. Look for the vikes to reach for some college qb in the draft instead of trading for an experienced qb...maybe it will work out this time.

So, those are a few examples. Players can get better, but seems to take many years in the right system with the right coaches.

Agree it is the exception not the rule

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Off the top of my head, Ryan Mallett never really did anything at Michigan, and then did tremendous when he transferred to Arkansas.

And on the NFL side, just recently, the guy who has been thought to be the epitome of average for the longest time, Alex Smith, had a very good year in KC.

Alex Smith had a decent year in KC, he was equally decent in his last two seasons in San Fran. He had a higher completion percentage, TD/INT ratio and a better Rating in his final two seasons in San Fran. He was a decent QB at the end of his run in San Fran and equally decent in KC. He left because of Kappernick.

Mallet. . .meh. . .he was a true freshman at Michigan. He probably wouldn't have had success at that dog and pony show under RichRod but he isn't a great example.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Yes...because the offense is too predicated on the run, even when it's not working, and often just disregards the pass. The scheme left a lot of wanting this year. Someone earlier in this thread said something about "the run game wasn't the problem" - really? If the Gophers could have run the ball, they'd have scored enough points to win more games this past year. Sure the passing game was broken, but the running game wasn't much better.

It was my opinion based on watching Nelson and his body language early in the season that he wasn't happy that the staff didn't trust him, didn't even try to pass the ball; or perhaps just trying to "force" the run through the eye of the needle too much. His body language was poor - looked frustrated. Fast forward several weeks, and finally they start throwing the ball, mixing up plays, scoring - his body language improved, he looked like he was having fun; and then the second half of the PSU game came, where the staff once again began going ultra-conservative and refusing to throw the ball. At that point Nelson's confidence took a dive, and he started missing those passes he was hitting so well just a couple of weeks earlier, the team stopped scoring, frustrations mounted; the scheme once again was mediocre and a fairly poor mix of play calls. It didn't help that the receivers weren't making plays after Engel went down.

It's not difficult to understand why Nelson might be frustrated. And it really stinks that he is transferring, and also that he decided to seek out and pay for private training after choosing to leave the program - why not before? All along, it looked like Nelson's problems were in his head, but I'm not sure they were unwarranted. You can only do so many things to someone before their confidence disappears, e.g., Colton Iversen under Tubby Smith, who went on to have a great senior season at CSU. I have a feeling Nelson is going to be very good his final 2 seasons, and it's a shame he won't be in maroon and gold.

On to the next, and we can only hope others step up in his place.

Are you sure we weren't forced to be more predicated on the run because we couldn't throw the ball? This argument makes sense to me if Nelson would have had success throwing the ball, but he didn't. How can you call more pass plays when you can't complete the ones you're calling?

As far as our running game. . .what's your argument? You said "if the Gophers could have run the ball they'd have scored enough points to win more games". What does this mean? Leidner played well in the Syracuse game, but do you remember how we threw the ball in our 4 losses during the season? It was awful.
42-93, 122 yards/per game, 2 TD and 4 INT
That's putrid. We didn't run the ball very well in these games, but our complete inability to throw the ball also might have played a little role in those losses.

Furthermore, we ran the ball decent, decent enough to win 8 games. That's not a bad season.

 

[e.bigelow]

Are you sure we weren't forced to be more predicated on the run because we couldn't throw the ball? This argument makes sense to me if Nelson would have had success throwing the ball, but he didn't. How can you call more pass plays when you can't complete the ones you're calling?

As far as our running game. . .what's your argument? You said "if the Gophers could have run the ball they'd have scored enough points to win more games". What does this mean? Leidner played well in the Syracuse game, but do you remember how we threw the ball in our 4 losses during the season? It was awful.
42-93, 122 yards/per game, 2 TD and 4 INT
That's putrid. We didn't run the ball very well in these games, but our complete inability to throw the ball also might have played a little role in those losses.

Furthermore, we ran the ball decent, decent enough to win 8 games. That's not a bad season.

+1 on all of this, Bob. Well done!

 

[play hard]

Bob forget that when we had four game win streak we passed the ball , we beat the good teams by having a balanced attack - Nelson and Engel/Williams really were on fire- once Engel went out we didn't score an offense TD for 13 quarters. This effected the whole offense. Nelson showed some good signs and would have kept improving into his Junior year. This is a big loss !

 

[kisarazu]

Bob forget that when we had four game win streak we passed the ball , we beat the good teams by having a balanced attack - Nelson and Engel/Williams really were on fire- once Engel went out we didn't score an offense TD for 13 quarters. This effected the whole offense. Nelson showed some good signs and would have kept improving into his Junior year. This is a big loss !

Actually, the four game winning streak began with us passing the ball less.

Pass Attempts and Resulting Scores

22 attempts UNLV 23-51 Minn W
15 attempts Minn 44-21 N.MxSt W
12 attempts W.Ill 12-29 Minn W
12 attempts SJoSt 24-43 Minn W

24 attempts Iowa 23-7 Minn L
21 attempts Minn 13-42 Mich L
14 attempts Minn 20-17 NW W
17 attempts Neb 23-34 Minn W
26 attempts Minn 42-39 Indi W (IU avg D = 35.3 PPG & 463.5 TYPG)
24 attempts Penn 10-24 Minn w
23 attempts Wisc 20-7 Minn L
25 attempts Minn 3-14 MiSt L (MSU avg D = 16.3 & 274.5 TYPG)

29 attempts Syra 21-17 Minn L

 

[kisarazu]

Motivated by curiosity and boredom, here's the...
2012 Pass Attempts and Resulting Scores
..................
30 attempts Minn 20-27 UNLV W
14 attempts NH 3-44 Minn W
24 attempts WMich 23-28 Minn W
30 attempts Syra 10-17 Minn W

33 attempts Minn 13-31 Iowa L
30 attempts NW 21-13 Minn L
24 attempts Minn 13-38 Wisc L *
22 attempts Purd 28-44 Minn W *
30 attempts Mich 35-13 Minn L *
15 attempts Minn 17-3 Ill W *
28 attempts Minn 14-38 Neb L *
29 attempts MSU 26-10 Minn L *

19 attempts Minn 31-34 TT L *

(*Games Nelson started)

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I would argue two things:

1. Nelson's run of ineptitude began after halftime of the Penn State game. I remember thinking it was a tale of two halves. David Cobb and the defense saved us in the second half.

2. The 4 game winning streak cannot be underplayed, but lets face it, we probably shouldn't have won the Indiana game. We put up a bunch of points on a really bad defense but we went a little cold in the second half. Our defense collapsed and we overall played poorly in the second half. Our win vs Nebraska was awesome but that was a complete team win, especially on defense. We only passed what, 14 times?

Losing Phil is a blow but he never did anything spectacular in my opinion. His competition in high school can't be called top tier. He didnt have a great arm and his decisionmaking was frighteningly inconsistent, and somwas his accuracy. We won't know if he would have ever amounted to anything special.

 

[cncmin]

Are you sure we weren't forced to be more predicated on the run because we couldn't throw the ball? This argument makes sense to me if Nelson would have had success throwing the ball, but he didn't. How can you call more pass plays when you can't complete the ones you're calling?

As far as our running game. . .what's your argument? You said "if the Gophers could have run the ball they'd have scored enough points to win more games". What does this mean? Leidner played well in the Syracuse game, but do you remember how we threw the ball in our 4 losses during the season? It was awful.
42-93, 122 yards/per game, 2 TD and 4 INT
That's putrid. We didn't run the ball very well in these games, but our complete inability to throw the ball also might have played a little role in those losses.

Furthermore, we ran the ball decent, decent enough to win 8 games. That's not a bad season.

I agree with some things you said, but I'll argue that this is a chicken or egg argument. Early in the season in "gimme" home games, the game plan was to stuff the run up the gut. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over. And it didn't work at all. Got outgained by a couple of those bad opponents in the early season, even if the final score was quality (due to defensive and special teams scores). Didn't even try to pass the ball, even in games where clearly the victories were easy grabs; still no work on the passing game, or for that matter the running game. This continued into the Iowa and Michigan debacles, before Limegrover/Kill's change of heart. Not too surprisingly, D-1 players can throw and catch the ball too, and along with a running game less predicated on just gut runs and QB off-tackle runs, the offense finally clicked; and Nelson excelled. I repeat again that I think the offense's late-season problems began in the 2nd half of the PSU game, where the coaching staff decided that the lead was big enough and mailed the offense in in favor of the gut-run system that failed so badly early in the year. They got the victory, but lost all of the offensive momentum, and it's my belief that is where Nelson lost his confidence again, with rising frustrations that the coaching staff refused to trust his arm that helped gain them 4 straight victories.

Any QB that plays at Minnesota is going to be very frustrated if the coaching staff reverts back to its early-2013 gameplan. That can't continue, even if Jeff Jones is running the ball in a year or two behind a vastly improved line. If you can't pass the ball, you can't be a force on the national scale.

 

[cncmin]

Actually, the four game winning streak began with us passing the ball less.

Pass Attempts and Resulting Scores

22 attempts UNLV 23-51 Minn W
15 attempts Minn 44-21 N.MxSt W
12 attempts W.Ill 12-29 Minn W
12 attempts SJoSt 24-43 Minn W

24 attempts Iowa 23-7 Minn L
21 attempts Minn 13-42 Mich L
14 attempts Minn 20-17 NW W
17 attempts Neb 23-34 Minn W
26 attempts Minn 42-39 Indi W (IU avg D = 35.3 PPG & 463.5 TYPG)
24 attempts Penn 10-24 Minn w
23 attempts Wisc 20-7 Minn L
25 attempts Minn 3-14 MiSt L (MSU avg D = 16.3 & 274.5 TYPG)

29 attempts Syra 21-17 Minn L

A few things - these stats show that the team passed it about the same number of times during the 4-game winning streak than before or after; not less, not by anything statistically reasonable. Second, the first half of the NW and second half of the PSU games were bookends. In between was all of the offensive success of the entire 2013 season - 2 full games plus two halves of two games, or about 12 quarters worth of solid offensive football. That's it. The first half of the NU game was bad offense, the second half of the PSU game was terrible offense. The vast majority of the plays in both of those bookending halves were running plays. The Nebraska game had relatively few passing attempts because the running game was really working; and the Gophers had the lead a solid portion of the game. Thus, it would have been idiotic to run the ball less there - it was working very well. When they did pass the ball that game they were beautiful, often innovative plays that left receivers wide open and Nelson was hitting the passes.

Finally, one should note that when you play from behind, as the Gophers did in those final 3 games, you are more likely to be stuck having to pass the ball in an attempt to score quickly. Thus, higher pass attempt numbers in those games were inherent due to the losing scores. But, note that UW and MSU largely stuffed the Gophers' run game, which also forced more passes. Yet, in no games this year did the team attempt 30 or more passes...not even in the 5 losses, 4 of which were by more than 1 score.

 

[kisarazu]

If you can't pass the ball, you can't be a force on the national scale.

Auburn did pretty well this year, right? Trying to remember... (20.4 Pass attempts per game)

 

[John Galt]

Losing Phil is a blow but he never did anything spectacular in my opinion. His competition in high school can't be called top tier. He didnt have a great arm and his decisionmaking was frighteningly inconsistent, and somwas his accuracy. We won't know if he would have ever amounted to anything special.

For the 5 millionth time: Many players aren't special as underclassmen, but become special when they are juniors and seniors. In 2013, in 11 games out of 13 the staff marched Nelson out to start because they thought he gave them the best shot to win. Including the bowl game, two weeks before he transferred.

Make no mistake, Mitch Leidner and the QB position is the single biggest question mark on the team for 2014. I'd like our chances a lot better with a junior QB who had been through the battles.

 

[hungan1]

Has anyone ever considered that losing Engel was the pivotal moment of the Gophers season? No one stepped up big time to fill in the void.

This is not a total knock on Nelson, but a QB should be able to adjust. I don't know if it throwing inefficiency or simply the green WRs aren't making adjustments or a combination of both. Some of it is on the O-Line.

Next men up. We shall see how well Leidner and Streveler with Mckinzy will do. With improved O-Line play & a reinforced WR corps, potentially we can have a very good season post Nelson.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

The number of passing attempts was less than 30 in those losses because we couldn't sustain drives, not because the coaching staff was stuck on the run. The number of passes was less than 30 because during those games Nelson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, or was throwing into triple coverage, or was taking a 15 yard sack.

The biggest leap in efficacy should come between a QBs first and second year starting. Nelson, to me, showed little improvement. During his freashman year he had a great Purdue game and made a nice td throw in the bowl game along with more of the maddening inconsistency. During his soph year he had 3-4 good games and then some of the most putrid games I've seen this side of the josh freeman game for the vikes last year.

He might have made incremental improvement next year but I think his confidence was shot and he had lost the teams confidence.

Most qbs don't need three years of starting to become halfway decent. The problems may have been numerous, ie lack of receivers, lack of full redshirt year etc etc but at some point you either perform or you don't during games, not practice. It was time for a change at qb, or at least an open competition.

It's sad in a way well never know now.

 

[stocker08]

The lack of passing attempts stemmed directly from inconsistent QB play. Nothing more, nothing less. Other than the Indiana game in which Maxx caught a wide open TD pass towards the end of the game, we won on the ground. Sucks to lose Nelson, as it's difficult to say how he would have progressed in the next two seasons, but Kill runs the ball. Leidner was the better option runner. If he can develop some consistency, look out.

 

[imthewalrus]

Has anyone ever considered that losing Engel was the pivotal moment of the Gophers season? No one stepped up big time to fill in the void.

This is not a total knock on Nelson, but a QB should be able to adjust. I don't know if it throwing inefficiency or simply the green WRs aren't making adjustments or a combination of both. Some of it is on the O-Line.

Next men up. We shall see how well Leidner and Streveler with Mckinzy will do. With improved O-Line play & a reinforced WR corps, potentially we can have a very good season post Nelson.

Think about it for a while: playing wisky (which was a pretty fair team and playing Big Ten and Rose Bowl Champion MSU probably had one hell of a lot to do with the outcome of 8 those quarters of football that the offense failed to look "as sharp" as they had during the four game conference WINNING streak. Just think about the defense that Michigan=freaking=State put on the field.

Good luck to Nelson...good luck to Leidner...good luck to ALL the other Golden Gopher Quarterbacks in the future. But at LEAST be honest enough to take a look at those last two teams that my Gophers played during the Conference Season.

The problem was that the coaches didn't quite have my Gophers playing physical enough football to beat Michigan, iowa, wisky and MSU. They WERE physical enough to find ways to beat Northwestern, Nebraska, Indiana and Purdue. I still can't figure out why they gave up that LONG punt return to Syracuse in the final minute and a half of that game when they had the lead. But THAT is what beat them...along with the fact that Syracuse was MORE physical than my Golden Gophers were on that day.

IF my Gophers win less conference games in 2014 than they did in 2013...it will say something. IF my Gophers win more Conference games in 2014 than they did in 2013...it will say something as well.. And then we will ALL know what we need to know about this WHOLE thing. Was it good? Was it bad? Or, did it just kind of happen? That's life, folks. Sometimes stuff just kind of "happens..."

 

[tikited]

For the 5 millionth time: Many players aren't special as underclassmen, but become special when they are juniors and seniors. In 2013, in 11 games out of 13 the staff marched Nelson out to start because they thought he gave them the best shot to win. Including the bowl game, two weeks before he transferred.

Make no mistake, Mitch Leidner and the QB position is the single biggest question mark on the team for 2014. I'd like our chances a lot better with a junior QB who had been through the battles.

Also for the 5 millionth time: Nelson was a bad qb for most of his college starts. He really only played well in about three games. There was little to be excited about in regard to his talent imo. It sucks losing experience and depth. His talent level will be easily replaced. The situation is not ideal, but you make it seem like he was close to Unitas territory if he would have stayed. I just didn't see it at all.

 

[station19]

Also for the 5 millionth time: Nelson was a bad qb for most of his college starts. He really only played well in about three games. There was little to be excited about in regard to his talent imo. It sucks losing experience and depth. His talent level will be easily replaced. The situation is not ideal, but you make it seem like he was close to Unitas territory if he would have stayed. I just didn't see it at all.

I don't mean to bash Nelson but I'm with you. The thing that stood out to me the most was poor passing. Not just his accuracy but not a tight spiral and nothing on it. Ball just seemed to float. His passes looked like wounded ducks.

 

[John Galt]

Also for the 5 millionth time: Nelson was a bad qb for most of his college starts. He really only played well in about three games. There was little to be excited about in regard to his talent imo. It sucks losing experience and depth. His talent level will be easily replaced. The situation is not ideal, but you make it seem like he was close to Unitas territory if he would have stayed. I just didn't see it at all.

Using your logic, you would have also shown Rashede the door, since he didn't even have 3 marginal games in his first two years.

I've never claimed that Nelson was great or even good over the course of his first two years. However, Nelson won't be "easily replaced," as the total # of starts by all other QBs on our roster is 2. We again have no depth, little experience, and no upperclassmen at the QB position. That sucks.

 

[dpodoll68]

the total # of starts by all other QBs on our roster is <strike>2</strike> 4.

FIFY