Bret Bielema showing pure class once again

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Badger2010 said:
for Bret Beilema to say that Russell Wilson is the best QB he has coached or played against is not outrageous by any stretch.
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Yes, it is.

Badger2010 said:
Is it really outrageous to think that he might actually be the best a coach has gone against?
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Yes, it is.

Badger2010 said:
What is outrageous is for someone to suggest that the person making this claim is lying.
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No, it isn't.

Badger2010 said:
Wilson <strike>might</strike> is not actually <strike>be</strike> the best Bielema has coached or played against.
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FIFY

Badger2010 said:
There are several valid arguments for and against Russell Wilson in that regard.
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No, there aren't.

Badger2010 said:
To suggest that Bielema is lying is just plain stupid.
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No, it isn't.

Look, Bielema is a recruiter. He's constantly recruiting at every chance he gets. That's exactly what he's doing here. He's horribly overstating Wilson and his abilities because it makes Wisconsin look better and he thinks it will get elite QBs to go there. The problem I have is when he lies to do so. It is possible to be an effective recruiter without lying. There have been many better college QBs that Bielema has played and coached for and against. In addition to all the ones I mentioned previously, how about Drew Brees? Andy Dalton? Who outside of a biased Wisconsin fan would honestly say that Russell Wilson is a better college QB than Troy Smith, Jason White, Drew Brees, or Andy Dalton? It's absolutely crazy. He's a stats accumulator. And that's being kind. There is a reason why no sane person would take Dan Marino over Joe Montana. Adam Weber holds many Minnesota game, season, and career passing records. Is he the best QB in Minnesota history? Not even close. He's not even the best Minnesota QB of the past decade.
 

<img src="http://chzfailnation.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/epic-fail-sports-failure-college-football-mascots-table.gif" />
 

dpodoll68 said:
Yes, it is.



Yes, it is.



No, it isn't.



FIFY



No, there aren't.



No, it isn't.

Look, Bielema is a recruiter. He's constantly recruiting at every chance he gets. That's exactly what he's doing here. He's horribly overstating Wilson and his abilities because it makes Wisconsin look better and he thinks it will get elite QBs to go there. The problem I have is when he lies to do so. It is possible to be an effective recruiter without lying. There have been many better college QBs that Bielema has played and coached for and against. In addition to all the ones I mentioned previously, how about Drew Brees? Andy Dalton? Who outside of a biased Wisconsin fan would honestly say that Russell Wilson is a better college QB than Troy Smith, Jason White, Drew Brees, or Andy Dalton? It's absolutely crazy. He's a stats accumulator. And that's being kind. There is a reason why no sane person would take Dan Marino over Joe Montana. Adam Weber holds many Minnesota game, season, and career passing records. Is he the best QB in Minnesota history? Not even close. He's not even the best Minnesota QB of the past decade.
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I guess at this point, my only question for you is what would a QB need to do in Wisconsin's current system for you to think it might be possible that a coach is telling the truth when he says the player is the best he's played against or coached against?

You ignored my argument for including Wilson on the list. Tell me why he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with those other players. Per play, he's statistically better than all of them.

I'm not going to sink to your level of d-baggery by being habitually condencending, although the multiple-quote thing was very cute.

You have not used one fact to support your opinion. I challenge you to do so. Tell me why those players are so clearly better than Russell Wilson, that he doesn't even deserved to mentioned in the same breath as them. Oh, and NFL success has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
 


Badger2010 said:
You have not used one fact to support your opinion. I challenge you to do so. Tell me why those players are so clearly better than Russell Wilson, that he doesn't even deserved to mentioned in the same breath as them.
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Jason White - 1x National Champion, 2x National Runner-Up, Heisman, Maxwell, every major QB award that exists, also finished 3rd for Heisman after winning it

Troy Smith - 1x National Runner-up, Heisman, several major QB awards, Fiesta Bowl MVP, ESPN Big Ten Player of the Decade

Drew Brees - Set all-time career Big Ten records for passing yards, total yards, TDs, attempts, and completions; Maxwell Award, Big Ten MVP award, 2x Heisman Trophy finalist, took Purdue to first Rose Bowl in 34 years

Russell Wilson - Zero Heismans, Zero Maxwells, maybe an O'Brien Award if he's lucky, Zero Big Ten MVPs, Zero Big Ten career records, Zero Heisman finalist appearances, Zero National Championship appearances, possible Rose Bowl loss if he's extremely lucky
 


Holy Bleep. This thread is off the charts.

Let me try to offer a few (hopefully) balanced comments.

Gopher Fans don't like Badger Fans and vice-versa. Yes, as a Gopher Fan, I admit I'm jealous of Wisconsin's success, and disappointed that the Gophers can't get out of the rut they're in.

Be that as it may, I am among many people who feel that Bielema comes off like a jerk at times - he's not the first head coach to do so, and he won't be the last. If you're a Badger fan, you appreciate the winning seasons, and are likely to overlook any of his less ideal qualities. If you're a Gopher Fan, the very sight of that smirk on his face makes you want to hit him over the head with a large blunt object.

As far as Wilson - no doubt, he's having a great year. But, Badger fans - you have to admit that this one fell right in your laps. By all accounts, Wilson chose Wisconsin because they had the potential to be a good team - but did not have a quality QB. So, the UW staff's inability to recruit or develop a top-flight QB actually allowed the Badgers to get one of the best QB's in school history. You have to admit, the recent run of Badger QB's have been in the "game-manager" category. Good - efficient - but not great.

Finally - I have never posted on another school's message board. I support the Gophers. I feel no need to post smack on another team's board. If a Badger fan feels some need to come on a Gopher Board and put us down - that is a reflection on you - not on the Gophers. Enjoy your team's success - that should be sufficient. If having a winning team isn't good enough for you, then I feel sorry for you. Want to trade places?.....................................................I didn't think so.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Jason White - 1x National Champion, 2x National Runner-Up, Heisman, Maxwell, every major QB award that exists, also finished 3rd for Heisman after winning it

Troy Smith - 1x National Runner-up, Heisman, several major QB awards, Fiesta Bowl MVP, ESPN Big Ten Player of the Decade

Drew Brees - Set all-time career Big Ten records for passing yards, total yards, TDs, attempts, and completions; Maxwell Award, Big Ten MVP award, 2x Heisman Trophy finalist, took Purdue to first Rose Bowl in 34 years

Russell Wilson - Zero Heismans, Zero Maxwells, maybe an O'Brien Award if he's lucky, Zero Big Ten MVPs, Zero Big Ten career records, Zero Heisman finalist appearances, Zero National Championship appearances, possible Rose Bowl loss if he's extremely lucky
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Using career Big Ten statistics is weak and you know it.

Nothing I see here shows me that any of these players are so far and away better than Russell Wilson that to say that he might be the best of them is so ludicrous that it could only be a lie. He's still per play better than all of them.
 

Badger2010 said:
Using career Big Ten statistics is weak and you know it.

Nothing I see here shows me that any of these players are so far and away better than Russell Wilson that to say that he might be the best of them is so ludicrous that it could only be a lie. He's still per play better than all of them.
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What does that even mean?
 





Wilson will get drafted. My guess is third day and where on the third day will depend on the combine and all-star games. He's not that big and size counts for something in the pros. There are worse players drawing a steady paycheck holding a clipboard on the sidelines.
 

Troy Smith's stats his Heisman trophy season:

2006:
Completeions: 203
Attempts: 311
Completion percentage: 65.3%
Yards: 2542
Average: 8.2
Touchdowns: 30
Interceptions: 6
Rating: 161.9

Notice something? Russell Wilson will likely finish better than Smith in EVERY CATEGORY.
 

Badger2010 said:
His per play averages in regards to yards, TD's, etc. are on pace to break NCAA records...
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All you Vadger rubes are talking out both sides of your ass. You come on here to rub Minnesota's face in how much better Wisconsin is at football, and then you puff up your rent-a-QB because he's a stats accumulator. Which is it? Do you want to accumulate stats or win titles and trophies? I'd take the latter, personally.

Badger2010 said:
Troy Smith's stats his Heisman trophy season:

2006:
Completeions: 203
Attempts: 311
Completion percentage: 65.3%
Yards: 2542
Average: 8.2
Touchdowns: 30
Interceptions: 6
Rating: 161.9

Notice something? Russell Wilson will likely finish better than Smith in EVERY CATEGORY.
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Except WINNING. And AWARDS. Isn't that the point? To win games and have people give you awards because you were really good at winning games? Or is it to accumulate stats? Which is the point?
 



dpodoll68 said:
All you Vadger rubes are talking out both sides of your ass. You come on here to rub Minnesota's face in how much better Wisconsin is at football, and then you puff up your rent-a-QB because he's a stats accumulator. Which is it? Do you want to accumulate stats or win titles and trophies? I'd take the latter, personally.



Except WINNING. And AWARDS. Isn't that the point? To win games and have people give you awards because you were really good at winning games? Or is it to accumulate stats? Which is the point?
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I have not once talked bad about the Gopher football program or trolled on this board.
 

dpodoll68 said:
All you Vadger rubes are talking out both sides of your ass. You come on here to rub Minnesota's face in how much better Wisconsin is at football, and then you puff up your rent-a-QB because he's a stats accumulator. Which is it? Do you want to accumulate stats or win titles and trophies? I'd take the latter, personally.


Except WINNING. And AWARDS. Isn't that the point? To win games and have people give you awards because you were really good at winning games? Or is it to accumulate stats? Which is the point?
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I'm confused. How does this eliminate Russell Wilson from being considered the best QB that Bielema has ever coached or played against? Furthermore how does this abortion of a rant in the least bit show that Bielema is LYING when he says that Russell Wilson is the best QB that he has ever coached or played against?
 

Badger2010 said:
I'm confused. How does this eliminate Russell Wilson from being considered the best QB that Bielema has ever coached or played against?
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How many major national player and/or QB awards is Russell Wilson going to win? How many national championship game wins (or appearances) is he going to accumulate?
 

dpodoll68 said:
How many major national player and/or QB awards is Russell Wilson going to win? How many national championship game wins (or appearances) is he going to accumulate?
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Is that the only criteria by which someone can assess the ultimate worth of a quarterback? If so then Marcus Randle is better than Russell Wilson because he won a National Championship with LSU.

You must realize how stupid this argument is. It takes an elite team to play for a national championship. Just because Wisconsin won't make the NC game the one year Wilson was here doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be considered amongst the best at his position. Andrew Luck won't be in the NC game either, but I guarantee you he will still be universally considered one of the top 5 best QB's in the country.

Additionally, if we make the Rose Bowl, and I think we will, he very well could be a Heisman finalist, a Maxwell Finalist, an O'Briend winner, a Unitas winner, a Big Ten POY winner. Would that validate him in your eyes?
 

In defense of Badger2010, he was a very polite and informative participant in the chat room on gameday. Why he's having this argument here when the game was four days ago is a bit of a puzzler, but he's a far cry better than the sub-humans that descended upon this board at about 6 PM on Saturday.
 

Badger2010 said:
I guess at this point, my only question for you is what would a QB need to do in Wisconsin's current system for you to think it might be possible that a coach is telling the truth when he says the player is the best he's played against or coached against?
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It would have helped had he not been an above-average QB at best, for a mediocre ACC team for the past three seasons. His production and efficiency at UW are a direct result of the amazing running game y'all have put together. He showed the past three seasons at NCST good play, to be sure, but also a lot to be desired. To call him the best QB he's ever seen (essentially) is so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin considering the other QBs mentioned above.
 

Badger2010 said:
His per play averages in regards to yards, TD's, etc. are on pace to break NCAA records...
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So what you're saying is that some stats are okay as long as they help prove your point, but other stats are "weak"?

Wilson is having a phenomenal season, no doubt about it. But you're essentially saying it's better to use 10 games worth of stats over 40+ games. Those other guys mentioned had much better careers than Wilson has, no matter what he does the rest of this year.

Not trying to diminish his accomplishments at all. Like I said he's having a great year. But you can't deny that the help around him, especially the massive OL, hasn't helped him a ton compared to his career at NC State.
 

Badger2010 said:
Is that the only criteria by which someone can assess the ultimate worth of a quarterback? If so then Marcus Randle is better than Russell Wilson because he won a National Championship with LSU.
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False. Winning is not the only criteria I used. How many national player awards did Marcus "Randle" win? Those players were all better QBs because they were great players who also won big. This really isn't that complicated.

Badger2010 said:
Additionally, if we make the Rose Bowl, and I think we will, he very well could be a Heisman finalist, a Maxwell Finalist, an O'Briend winner, a Unitas winner, a Big Ten POY winner. Would that validate him in your eyes?
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Not a chance in hell. The only things that are possible from your list are Rose Bowl appearance and O'Brien winner. He has no shot at the rest. Hell, the obvious Big Ten POY winner is on your team, and it sure as hell ain't Wilson.
 

50PoundHead said:
In defense of Badger2010, he was a very polite and informative participant in the chat room on gameday. Why he's having this argument here when the game was four days ago is a bit of a puzzler, but he's a far cry better than the sub-humans that descended upon this board at about 6 PM on Saturday.
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Hi 50. I come here a few times a week to catch up on Gopher Football news. I usually just lurk, but I occasionally comment where I feel I can add insight or bring a differing, but respectful, opinion.

I'm not here to flame the Gophers or piss off posters. This argument between Dpodoll and myself is as brash as you will ever see me, and I think I have been exceedingly respectful considering Dpodoll's remarks. All things considered, this is a pretty interesting conversation, or at least it is in my opinion. Not because it deals with Russell Wilson, but because we are discussing how to evaluate a player's career accomplishments. I love this type of debate.
 

GophersInIowa said:
So what you're saying is that some stats are okay as long as they help prove your point, but other stats are "weak"?

Wilson is having a phenomenal season, no doubt about it. But you're essentially saying it's better to use 10 games worth of stats over 40+ games. Those other guys mentioned had much better careers than Wilson has, no matter what he does the rest of this year.

Not trying to diminish his accomplishments at all. Like I said he's having a great year. But you can't deny that the help around him, especially the massive OL, hasn't helped him a ton compared to his career at NC State.
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The only stats I said were weak were career Big Ten statistics outside of averages. That is because Russell Wilson will only play in the Big Ten for one season, which makes the comparison....for lack of a better word, misleading.

As for his supporting cast making him look good, I absolutely agree with you, it's a huge factor. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the majority of the players dpodoll listed as vastly superior to Russell Wilson, benefited greatly, in terms of Championship appearances and awards, because of their supporting cast.

However, supporting cast arguments go both ways. Russell Wilson's less successful statistical seasons at NC State were likely at least partially attributable to his horrid supporting cast. He was asked to do it all for that team, to take chances because it was the only way for them to win, and to do so with an O-line that was amongst the worst in the country.
 

dpodoll68 said:
False. Winning is not the only criteria I used. How many national player awards did Marcus Randle win? Those players were all better QBs because they were great players who also won big. This really isn't that complicated.



Not a chance in hell. The only things that are possible from your list are Rose Bowl appearance and O'Brien winner. He has no shot at the rest. Hell, the obvious Big Ten POY winner is on your team, and it sure as hell ain't Wilson.
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He has no shot at the Unitas award? Who's going to grab that? He was just mentioned in an ESPN article this week as a possible Heisman finalist. As for Big Ten POY award, I agree, it will likely go to Ball, but one could argue that that makes Wilson coming in at #2 all the more impressive; he's breaking passing records despite his opportunities being limited because of an excellent rushing attack.
 

Badger2010 said:
Hi 50. I come here a few times a week to catch up on Gopher Football news. I usually just lurk, but I occasionally comment where I feel I can add insight or bring a differing, but respectful, opinion.

I'm not flame the Gophers or piss off posters. This argument between Dpodoll and myself is as brash as you will ever see me, and I think I have been exceedingly respectful considering Dpodoll's remarks. All things considered, this is a pretty interesting conversation, or at least it is in my opinion. Not because it deals with Russell Wilson, but because we are discussing how to evaluate a player's career accomplishments. I love this type of debate.
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I think most of us welcome fans of other teams on here to discuss football. It's the ones that use their opponents' forums to make them feel good about themselves that everyone can't stand. Trolling does nothing but make your own fan base look stupid. We have them, wisconsin has them. It gets really annoying.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I think most of us welcome fans of other teams on here to discuss football. It's the ones that use their opponents' forums to make them feel good about themselves that everyone can't stand. Trolling does nothing but make your own fan base look stupid. We have them, wisconsin has them. It gets really annoying.
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I think you will agree when I say that I am clearly not trolling. I have not said one negative thing about the Gophers, I haven't mentioned this past weekend's game, and I'm using statistics and facts to support my opinions. That is the antithesis of what a troll stands for.
 

Badger2010 said:
He has no shot at the Unitas award? Who's going to grab that? He was just mentioned in an ESPN article this week as a possible Heisman finalist. As for Big Ten POY award, I agree, it will likely go to Ball, but one could argue that that makes Wilson coming in at #2 all the more impressive; he's breaking passing records despite his opportunities being limited because of an excellent rushing attack.
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I honestly think Weeden should win the Unitas and the O'Brien, but it will probably be Luck, possibly Moore as a career achievement-type award. As for the Heisman, it will probably be Luck, but the most deserving could be Richardson, James, Weeden, or even Blackmon. Wilson won't even come close to getting invited to the ceremony.

Also, the reason Wilson is putting up the numbers he is is primarily because he has two very good RBs and a very good OL. I thought this was common knowledge.
 

Badger2010 said:
Badger in Ohio Valley is taking this over the top, however, for Bret Beilema to say that Russell Wilson is the best QB he has coached or played against is not outrageous by any stretch.
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I entered the fray of this thread when a poster called Bielema a "bold faced" liar for saying a guy heading for the record books is the best he's been around. This was safely over the top when I came to clean the mess up. When called out, dpoll's feelers got hurt and he decided to go home. I guess you got him out to play. He still exudes a bias that is beyond ridiculous.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I honestly think Weeden should win the Unitas and the O'Brien, but it will probably be Luck, possibly Moore as a career achievement-type award. As for the Heisman, it will probably be Luck, but the most deserving could be Richardson, James, Weeden, or even Blackmon. Wilson won't even come close to getting invited to the ceremony.
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Unitas only goes to Senior QB's from my understanding, so that eliminates Luck.

As for the Heisman cermony, it depends on how many people they invite; they have had five there before. Luck and Richardson are locks for the ceremony. After that I think in order of likeliness of making the ceremony goes (might be a few I'm missing): Weeden, Moore, James, Wilson, Keenum, Blackmon.

However, with Bama, Boise and Stanford all going down recently, this could change a lot, and quickly. Heisman finalists are almost exclusively a part of Top 10 teams. Usually it goes to the best player on the best team, but LSU has no offensive player worthy of a nomination.
 

Badger_inohiovalley said:
I entered the fray of this thread when a poster called Bielema a "bold faced" liar for saying a guy heading for the record books is the best he's been around. This was safely over the top when I came to clean the mess up. When called out, dpoll's feelers got hurt and he decided to go home. I guess you got him out to play. He still exudes a bias that is beyond ridiculous.
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I'm not saying you calling out dpodoll's comments was out of line. More just your tone and word usuage. If this wasn't a Gopher forum, I wouldn't have said anything about it, but we are somewhat of guests here, even though the forum is open to the public, so being respectful as an fan of an rival team is good practice.
 

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