Northwestern Fires Pat Fitzgerald

[upnorthkid]

Wow. Can anyone think of a scenario where the for cause holds up? A bluff, figuring or hoping Fitzgerald won’t want to take this to trial? Who has more to lose.

Depends I guess on what is in his contract regarding this. Did he have some area about needing to uphold the values of the university and student code of conduct? Was there some thing about culture? Really hard to know without the contract in front of us, but that part will be really interesting to see.

 

[Some guy]

Wow. Can anyone think of a scenario where the for cause holds up? A bluff, figuring or hoping Fitzgerald won’t want to take this to trial? Who has more to lose.

I’m not sure that’s a very good argument. I guess I disagree with you.

I’m sure he is going to end up negotiating and taking a partial buyout because that’s probably what’s best for both parties…but to say no knowing makes it impossible to fire for cause is a little ridiculous.

I would guess it would depend on what’s in the job description in terms of language, but I’m guessing there is stuff about “ensure a positive and safe environment for student athletes” that may cover this.

 

[Some guy]

Depends I guess on what is in his contract regarding this. Did he have some area about needing to uphold the values of the university and student code of conduct? Was there some thing about culture? Really hard to know without the contract in front of us, but that part will be really interesting to see.

Yeah pretty big jump to say he can’t be fired for cause without knowing. If you can have hazing in your locker room and your head coach can make himself immune simply by claiming ignorance then it’s a pretty poorly written contract.

And if that’s the case the problem isn’t firing him for cause, the problem is the initial contract. It would still be smart to claim cause because it gets you to a smaller buyout in the long run. If they believe any of that stuff happened, head coach has to go and eventually probably others as well.

 

[upnorthkid]

All of that is reasonable, as I believe my position is. The summary:

“The investigation team determined that the complainant’s claims were largely supported by the evidence gathered during the investigation, including separate and consistent first-person accounts from current and former players,” per the summary.

Given that they made the about face on discipline after the original complainant went public (and nuclear) Saturday, and the second statement (on the firing) stated 11 players corroborated the first player on existence of hazing (without any specifics) one can reasonably draw a wide range of conclusions. I suppose perhaps a saving grace is the statement did say they have no evidence Fitzgerald knew or orchestrated it but of course unsaid there is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That last part is what I mean. All they’ve said is he didn’t know, but he should’ve and that he would have had ample opportunities to know. That to me doesn’t mesh with this thing where he’s clapping maliciously and smiling nor do we have anyone corroborating that and some people to say that didn’t happen. Still think it’s too aggressive a take to push all the way to saying that the University had said he ordered sexual assaults given no one other than the complainant has said that directly. However I get where youre coming from with the sloppy language

 

[Some guy]

That last part is what I mean. All they’ve said is he didn’t know, but he should’ve and that he would have had ample opportunities to know. That to me doesn’t mesh with this thing where he’s clapping maliciously and smiling nor do we have anyone corroborating that and some people to say that didn’t happen. Still think it’s too aggressive a take to push all the way to saying that the University had said he ordered sexual assaults given no one other than the complainant has said that directly. However I get where youre coming from with the sloppy language

And to me that’s probably what is in the contract that he violated. He was negligent in creating a safe environment for student athletes. Which I’m guessing is in the contract

 

[hungan1]

The AD has been on vacation and only returned yesterday evening. And the investigation started back in November by a 3rd party.

I think Fitz deserves better than what he got. This may haunt Northwestern Football and University for a long time. Football takes a back seat to academic research at Northwestern.

 

[upnorthkid]

Day 5 and still no calls for disciplinary proceedings of players or staff…

I find this all bizarre.

To this point, I’ve yet to see anything other than naming Fitz and masked players. It’s very bizarre to me. Though I guess if you knew something, there is the concern for implicating yourself if you knew something and didn’t speak up. Going to be very hairy times at NW but don’t see how there’s not more discipline incoming

 

[upnorthkid]

I think Fitz deserves better than what he got. This may haunt Northwestern Football and University for a long time. Football takes a back seat to academic research at Northwestern.

If Fitz let multiple guys be sexually assaulted and mentally abused (this is provided the details given to this point are true, outside of the him targeting players) then he got better then he deserved with temporary hope he may survive and the University not demolishing him.
If he was truly in the know and was targeting players, then he deserves this all and more.
It’s hard to separate our preconceived notions about him being a good man, tough football player, etc and be faced with new evidence. We’re being faced with it pretty frequently right now given all the NW alums publishing things about how great he is. However until the whole story comes out, it’s hard to say they deserved more/better/etc. Hell, though not to derail the thread again, there are people who swear Sandusky did nothing wrong to this day and was a great guy.

 

[USAF]

Day 5 and still no calls for disciplinary proceedings of players or staff…

I find this all bizarre.

LOL.
Saturday you were blathering on that this was all a big nothingburger and suspending Fitzgerald was an outrageous aasault from cancel culture, but today you're dumbstruck there hasnt been wider discipline.

...

LOLOL.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I’m not sure that’s a very good argument. I guess I disagree with you.

I’m sure he is going to end up negotiating and taking a partial buyout because that’s probably what’s best for both parties…but to say no knowing makes it impossible to fire for cause is a little ridiculous.

I would guess it would depend on what’s in the job description in terms of language, but I’m guessing there is stuff about “ensure a positive and safe environment for student athletes” that may cover this.

The contracts I’ve looked at do not extend quite that far. There is no good proof eg he didn’t make a good faith effort to ensure a safe and positive environment. You may think not, but can you prove it at trial, and what exactly does the contract stipulate. This circles back to the who, what, when issues we’ve been wondering about.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

LOL.
Saturday you were blathering on that this was all a big nothingburger and suspending Fitzgerald was an outrageous aasault from cancel culture, but today you're dumbstruck there hasnt been wider discipline.

...

LOLOL.

Two straw men in the same sentence.

Settle down. You’re fighting ghosts.

 

[USAF]

Two straw men in the same sentence.

Settle down. You’re fighting ghosts.

So you didnt spend the.weekend pooh-poohing the idea any of this had any merit, then hide for a day when he got fired, then pivot to blathering about lawsuits?

D'okay.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

The AD has been on vacation and only returned yesterday evening. And the investigation started back in November by a 3rd party.

“Lol I was on vacation”

 

[Some guy]

The contracts I’ve looked at do not extend quite that far. There is no good proof eg he didn’t make a good faith effort to ensure a safe and positive environment. You may think not, but can you prove it at trial, and what exactly does the contract stipulate. This circles back to the who, what, when issues we’ve been wondering about.

Do you work in education related contracts?
Because that is in just about every education related contract Ive ever seen

Based on what came our (if that stuff is true) he would be negligent simply for not having proper supervision in Locker room. (Hence why they are putting someone outside the program in the locker room as part of the two week suspension announcement that Fitz agreed to and didn’t fight)

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Do you work in education related contracts?
Because that is in just about every education related contract Ive ever seen

Based on what came our (if that stuff is true) he would be negligent simply for not having proper supervision in Locker room. (Hence why they are putting someone outside the program in the locker room as part of the two week suspension announcement that Fitz agreed to and didn’t fight)

The school initially deemed the issue worthy of a two week suspension. What changed over 48 hours that would be provable under oath at jury trial. Most people out there aren’t as biased as we are, so the fine points could be debated. So we once again arrive at what is provable, under oath, witness depositions and testimony, whether corroborating stories, and so on. I think both parties have an idea of the area of truth there and future events will eventually reflect that, settlement etc.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

So you didnt spend the.weekend pooh-poohing the idea any of this had any merit, then hide for a day when he got fired, then pivot to blathering about lawsuits?

D'okay.

OK let me turn this around at you. Do you take Grant Norton’s story at full face value. If so Fleck should be fired for cause immediately.

Yes or no. No weaseling. Contract here:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[Some guy]

The school initially deemed the issue worthy of a two week suspension. What changed over 48 hours that would be provable under oath at jury trial. Most people out there aren’t as biased as we are, so the fine points could be debated. So we once again arrive at what is provable, under oath, witness depositions and testimony, whether corroborating stories, and so on. I think both parties have an idea of the area of truth there and future events will eventually reflect that, settlement etc.

I agree there will be a settlement.
I have no idea what occurred, but I do not think the people saying no way he can be fired for cause know what they’re talking about because they don’t know either.

Fitz lawyered up.
Northwestern already was lawyered up

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I agree there will be a settlement.
I have no idea what occurred, but I do not think the people saying no way he can be fired for cause know what they’re talking about because they don’t know either.

Fitz lawyered up.
Northwestern already was lawyered up

The school can’t unilaterally say he breached his contract without some sort of probable factual argument of failure. Your example of lack of supervision is one: do we know there wasn’t any supervision, at all? Would the former staffers swear on their version of events. Any locker room staff. Players, etc. What is the ”community standard” for college athletics (or high school) for supervising locker rooms and showers and did Fitzgerald fall short.

Pat and his lawyers aren’t dumb. We’ll see what transpires.

 

[jovs]

“Northwestern will retain its assistant coaches and support staff for the 2023 season in the wake of coach Pat Fitzgerald's firing” per this ESPN article.

To me, this only amplifies the clown show from the President and AD’s handling thus far. The executive report said Fitz and the assistant coaches were not aware of what was going on. The President and AD believe this is enough to outright fire the head coach but won’t consider further discipline for assistant coaches? I have to imagine Fitz’ lawyers are licking their lips and already looking for a new beach house at this.uck

The assistant coaches are not responsible for things that go on in a program if they are not directly involved. The head coach is, the buck stops there, that is why he was fired.

 

[Some guy]

The school can’t unilaterally say he breached his contract without some sort of factual argument. Your example of lack of supervision is one : do we know there wasn’t any supervision, at all? Would the former staffers swear on their version of events. Players, etc. What is the ”community standard” for college athletics (or high school) for supervising locker rooms and showers and did Fitzgerald fall short.

No, we don’t
I’m not saying I know they can fire him for cause
I’m saying we don’t know they can’t fire him for cause

I am going to go ahead and guess northwestern consulted their lawyers during this and feel fine about their position (I am guessing is their position is they assume they’ll pay some, but not all of the buyout in a negotiated settlement but that even if they had to pay the full buyout they wanted him gone). It I don’t know that for certain

 

[Pompous Elitist]

No, we don’t
I’m not saying I know they can fire him for cause
I’m saying we don’t know they can’t fire him for cause

I am going to go ahead and guess northwestern consulted their lawyers during this and feel fine about their position (I am guessing is their position is they assume they’ll pay some, but not all of the buyout in a negotiated settlement but that even if they had to pay the full buyout they wanted him gone). It I don’t know that for certain

After everything that has happened, is happening I wouldn’t assume Schill is getting good advice, or he isn’t just shooting from the hip.

 

[Some guy]

After everything that has happened, is happening I wouldn’t assume Schill is getting good advice, or he isn’t just shooting from the hip.

If he is just shooting from the hip and costs the university tens of millions without consulting their board, he will likely be gone too.

I think the only thing that changed between the two week suspension and the firing was the board probably said we don’t care if we end up paying the whole buyout, he’s gone. (And we will end up settling for less than the whole buyout)

For 90-95% of education related contracts I’ve seen the Fitzgerald public statement would be evidence enough to fire for cause.
If they have proof that hazing occurred during football related events (camp Kenosha, showers after practice, etc. ) Fitzgerald saying this: “I had no knowledge whatsoever of any form of hazing within the Northwestern Football Program.”
Is an admission of a complete lack of oversight within the program. i am guessing based on my knowledge oversight and the creation of a safe educational environment are both in the contract. I wouldn’t even been surprised if there is specific language about hazing in his contract as even most high school coaches have to go through stuff about hazing every year.

Obviously neither of us have seen the contract but I am going to go ahead and guess Fitzgerald gets a lot more than 0 dollars but a lot less than his full buyout.

 

[GophersInIowa]

The assistant coaches are not responsible for things that go on in a program if they are not directly involved. The head coach is, the buck stops there, that is why he was fired.

If the stories are true, it would be impossible for at least some of the coaches and/or staff to not have witnessed it or know about it.

I also disagree that they are not responsible at all for those things. Assistants are an extension of the head coach.

 

[Some guy]

If the stories are true, it would be impossible for at least some of the coaches and/or staff to not have witnessed it or know about it.

I also disagree that they are not responsible at all for those things. Assistants are an extension of the head coach.

Regardless, I would guess unless someone explicitly did something wrong they’ll all be on staff until about January and then the new coach for 2024 will hire his own staff. whether that coach is hired in the next 5 weeks or not, it would be really difficult to bring together a staff before September at this point

 

[hungan1]

If Fitz let multiple guys be sexually assaulted and mentally abused (this is provided the details given to this point are true, outside of the him targeting players) then he got better then he deserved with temporary hope he may survive and the University not demolishing him.
If he was truly in the know and was targeting players, then he deserves this all and more.
It’s hard to separate our preconceived notions about him being a good man, tough football player, etc and be faced with new evidence. We’re being faced with it pretty frequently right now given all the NW alums publishing things about how great he is. However until the whole story comes out, it’s hard to say they deserved more/better/etc. Hell, though not to derail the thread again, there are people who swear Sandusky did nothing wrong to this day and was a great guy.

How are the big alumni fans and big NW boosters reacting? The new $800 million NW Athletic Complex is funded entirely by private donors.

 

[MNVCGUY]

“Northwestern will retain its assistant coaches and support staff for the 2023 season in the wake of coach Pat Fitzgerald's firing” per this ESPN article.

To me, this only amplifies the clown show from the President and AD’s handling thus far. The executive report said Fitz and the assistant coaches were not aware of what was going on. The President and AD believe this is enough to outright fire the head coach but won’t consider further discipline for assistant coaches? I have to imagine Fitz’ lawyers are licking their lips and already looking for a new beach house at this.

I get what you are saying but there is a major timing issue here as well. Hiring a new coach and having them assemble a staff this close to the start of a new season just doesn't happen often. Everyone is pretty locked in for the 2023 season at this point.

You could hire an unemployed head coach but even then they are going to have a really hard time getting a staff together this time of year.

The whole situation is a mess and I am sure they will clean house as soon as the 2023 season ends but for now they just have to bandaid it and try to make it work.

 

[Dave H]

I think Fitz deserves better than what he got. This may haunt Northwestern Football and University for a long time. Football takes a back seat to academic research at Northwestern.

First of all why does he deserve better?

Second, football should always take a backseat to research at a friggin school. Football is a sport.

 

[USAF]

OK let me turn this around at you. Do you take Grant Norton’s story at full face value. If so Fleck should be fired for cause immediately.

Yes or no. No weaseling. Contract here:

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

First, What the actual **** are you talking about? Seriously? What does PJ's contract have to do with any of this?

But ok, I'll humor your attempt to avoid the subject:
Did the U contract a private law firm to conduct a months long investigation of Fleck? Did said law firm submit an investigation essentially confirming the accusations? Was there a shred of authenticity to anything alleged? Did the U take disciplinary action?

No?

Then stop. You fucked up, it's ok. It happens. There was plenty of fire under the original smoke. Fitz ended up fired. Pretending this was always just unfounded rumor or less was wrong, but no big deal. Stubbornly sticking with that...pathetic.

 

[Dave H]

The school initially deemed the issue worthy of a two week suspension. What changed over 48 hours that would be provable under oath at jury trial. Most people out there aren’t as biased as we are, so the fine points could be debated. So we once again arrive at what is provable, under oath, witness depositions and testimony, whether corroborating stories, and so on. I think both parties have an idea of the area of truth there and future events will eventually reflect that, settlement etc.

The school wasn't expecting this to blow up. It is more likely their "investigation" was half assed as a CYA move and they figured a two week suspension would make it go away. The whole think stinks of a Friday news dump. What changed was that none of that happened and they pulled the pin on a live grenade.

What should have happened was they "suspend him indefinitely pending an independent investigation" and then let everything play out. That would have made way more sense and given them time to get their ducks in a row if they were going to fire him. They chose to gamble the story would go away and it didnt.

And for the record if there isn't a "safe culture for student athletes" clause in his contract then Northwestern is the stupidest bunch of smart people ever.

 

[Dave H]

The school can’t unilaterally say he breached his contract without some sort of probable factual argument of failure. Your example of lack of supervision is one: do we know there wasn’t any supervision, at all? Would the former staffers swear on their version of events. Any locker room staff. Players, etc. What is the ”community standard” for college athletics (or high school) for supervising locker rooms and showers and did Fitzgerald fall short.

Pat and his lawyers aren’t dumb. We’ll see what transpires.

If there was supervision there would be no questions about what did or did not happen. Someone would have been there to say "hey that dude is lying the players never hazed like that!" or "they attempted those things but we put a stop to it". And supervision doesn't mean players, but coaches or managers. Someone who can keep an eye on what is going on with the team while Fitz has his back turned like Colonel Klink.

Was that a serious question?