How did Coyle let this happen?

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Off to another great start in 22-23.
MBB 0-4
WBB 1-4
Neither coach has ever defeated a team in the top half of the BIG10 since being gifted the head coaching position. Facts.
 

stocker08 said:
Yeah....our most productive players have experience. It's like that with a lot of teams. True freshman outside of the very top recruits out of high school usually aren't major contributors. Yet true freshman for the Gophers are playing about 40% of the total minutes. An amount much higher than most power five teams.

Are you starting to understand how stupid your argument is....or are you sticking to the laughably bad take that this team isn't young? Maybe stick to simpler things like colors and shapes.
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The Gophs are playing a lot of frosh minutes. We are fairly young. That said there are 4-5 other Big Ten teams getting between 30 and 40% of their minutes from frosh- some of them faring pretty well....
 

Crappie said:
YOU used the term upperclassmen.
NOW you use a different term. I see your dishonesty on full display.

Garcia in year three at a college.
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FFS he is listed on the roster as a sophomore. You assume college is a linear process like high school. It is not.

It doesn't matter this is his third year removed from high school. In basketball years, he is in year 2.

It used to be that a college athlete's playing career tracked with their academic tenure. Therefore, the freshman, sophomore, junior and senior designation made sense. Now that is just simply not the case. It is rare that an athlete's academic track and athletic track run in parallel, so it makes no sense to conflate the two.

FWIW it would be better if they just went by their eligibility using a simple 0 (redshirt), 1, 2, 3, 4 designation for undergrads and a 5 designation for a graduate player. This fall, Chris Autman-Bell will be a Year 4 player, even though he will have been in school for 7 years. Two seasons were lost to injury and a third was Covid.

0, 1, 2 = less experienced
3, 4, 5 = more experienced

Problem solved.
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
Rutgers MBB finished 6th last year #fakenews
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We keep finding new and creative ways to say the first year and a half has been off the charts.

The signature win of the Ben Johnson era is Rutgers.
 




Bob_Loblaw said:
With the Ben apology crowd, when the non-freshman are terrible, you are an absolute idiot for even factoring in anything about them - how they're used, regression, development, etc. However, if they do anything well, that's a feather in Ben's cap.

So he's both an asset and a non-asset to them. He's both one of Ben's recruits (because Ben literally recruited him here) and also not one of Ben's recruits.

Also, last year didn't happen. Ignore it. This is Ben's first season.
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“Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”

George Orwell- 1984
 

DarthGopher said:
It doesn't matter this is his third year removed from high school. In basketball years, he is in year 2.
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No he's not, he's in year 3. He just gets an extra year. If he was one year younger, he wouldn't get that, and it would be the same as it always has been.

If this was 2019 Garcia would be a JR in year 3. Next year Treyton Thompson will be a JR in year 3.
 



DarthGopher said:
FFS he is listed on the roster as a sophomore. You assume college is a linear process like high school. It is not.

It doesn't matter this is his third year removed from high school. In basketball years, he is in year 2.

It used to be that a college athlete's playing career tracked with their academic tenure. Therefore, the freshman, sophomore, junior and senior designation made sense. Now that is just simply not the case. It is rare that an athlete's academic track and athletic track run in parallel, so it makes no sense to conflate the two.

FWIW it would be better if they just went by their eligibility using a simple 0 (redshirt), 1, 2, 3, 4 designation for undergrads and a 5 designation for a graduate player. This fall, Chris Autman-Bell will be a Year 4 player, even though he will have been in school for 7 years. Two seasons were lost to injury and a third was Covid.

0, 1, 2 = less experienced
3, 4, 5 = more experienced

Problem solved.
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Year 1 = Marquette
Year 2 = North Carolina
Year 3 = Minnesota

Basketball years, as he played basketball at each of the three colleges.
 

Dupreefor3 said:
Recruiting is good but it's not elite. Dennis Evans is not going to be Karl Anthony Towns or Anthony Davis, he's going to take time. This years freshman can all become good players as can Betts and Christie but there's no white knight like Amir Coffey coming in that's a sure thing
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And Amir Coffey didn’t even get drafted…so he wasn’t that sure in the minds of nba scouts (kudos to him for making a niche living and turning out a solid nba career so far…much more than oturo…)
 

stocker08 said:
Yeah....our most productive players have experience. It's like that with a lot of teams. True freshman outside of the very top recruits out of high school usually aren't major contributors. Yet true freshman for the Gophers are playing about 40% of the total minutes. An amount much higher than most power five teams.

Are you starting to understand how stupid your argument is....or are you sticking to the laughably bad take that this team isn't young? Maybe stick to simpler things like colors and shapes.
Click to expand...
Lots of teams who are much better than the gophers are young…and win. Which holds poorly for the gophers. This has been covered in other threads.

Other teams just get much much better freshmen. By the time our freshmen have grown and developed into juniors, they will be on the level of those other teams freshmen (who themselves will develop)
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Lots of teams who are much better than the gophers are young…and win. Which holds poorly for the gophers. This has been covered in other threads.

Other teams just get much much better freshmen. By the time our freshmen have grown and developed into juniors, they will be on the level of those other teams freshmen (who themselves will develop)
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Ben is up against some long odds. He is doing better at recruiting so far than Pitino did. Right now Pitino who won an NIT right away, appears to have the coaching edge. Pitino's team that went for three wins had far less mature talent than this team overall, so let's see if Ben can at least match that.

Ben is going to need to convince the guys that are here to stick it out for four years or at least three. He needs two more portal guards- good ones- in addition to Christie. Then he needs to teach them to play harder, tougher and smarter than other Big Ten teams that will still have more talent. If he does all of that he could have a top 5 Big Ten team in year four and an NCAA bubble team next year.
 




bga1 said:
Ben is up against some long odds. He is doing better at recruiting so far than Pitino did. Right now Pitino who won an NIT right away, appears to have the coaching edge. Pitino's team that went for three wins had far less mature talent than this team overall, so let's see if Ben can at least match that.

Ben is going to need to convince the guys that are here to stick it out for four years or at least three. He needs two more portal guards- good ones- in addition to Christie. Then he needs to teach them to play harder, tougher and smarter than other Big Ten teams that will still have more talent. If he does all of that he could have a top 5 Big Ten team in year four and an NCAA bubble team next year.
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This is a very logical response. Portal guards are an absolute must. If that means we lose Cooper because he gets upset about playing time, we have to let him go (this is a historically bad team). I’d lower the NCAA bubble expectation though as even though we have the roster for it, I don’t think we have the coach to get us over the hump. (Noting our offense and defensive statistics). I’d argue a more realistic achievement is 7 big ten wins next year and 8 non-conference (I don’t think 15 wins gets you in the dance).


- Two fast portal guards, Carrington, Christie, Henley (bench guards and small ball SFs
- Forwards/ Center: Battle, JOJ, Betts?, Payne, Evans

I’d say thank fox and ihnen for sticking around, but we need their scholarships for guard speed. They unfortunately are extremely redundant and if this team wants to improve we need slashes, penetration, shooting (more guards)

*I also think Evans being a potential game changer on defense may start day 1 and there is no evidence that Payne can play the 4. There will be a logjam of minutes in the front court. Everyone on this board has their fingers crossed on Evans and it’s going to go 1 of two ways: 1) he’s the real deal and he comes in and wows on defense and deserves ~ 30 min a game based on that (plus has a ok offense *lobs and tip-ins), on 2) he is a project…in this scenario he will probably still need some minutes as game action is the only real way to develop (hence our freshmen this year)

**my scenario takes the assumption that TT is gone
 

scools12 said:
Exactly what long odds is Ben Johnson up against?

Johnson recruited these players, constructed the roster and is the head coach.

The current state of the program is all on Ben Johnson.
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Fighting words.....
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
This is a very logical response. Portal guards are an absolute must. If that means we lose Cooper because he gets upset about playing time, we have to let him go (this is a historically bad team). I’d lower the NCAA bubble expectation though as even though we have the roster for it, I don’t think we have the coach to get us over the hump. (Noting our offense and defensive statistics). I’d argue a more realistic achievement is 7 big ten wins next year and 8 non-conference (I don’t think 15 wins gets you in the dance).


- Two fast portal guards, Carrington, Christie, Henley (bench guards and small ball SFs
- Forwards/ Center: Battle, JOJ, Betts?, Payne, Evans

I’d say thank fox and ihnen for sticking around, but we need their scholarships for guard speed. They unfortunately are extremely redundant and if this team wants to improve we need slashes, penetration, shooting (more guards)

*I also think Evans being a potential game changer on defense may start day 1 and there is no evidence that Payne can play the 4. There will be a logjam of minutes in the front court. Everyone on this board has their fingers crossed on Evans and it’s going to go 1 of two ways: 1) he’s the real deal and he comes in and wows on defense and deserves ~ 30 min a game based on that (plus has a ok offense *lobs and tip-ins), on 2) he is a project…in this scenario he will probably still need some minutes as game action is the only real way to develop (hence our freshmen this year)

**my scenario takes the assumption that TT is gone
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If TT (for example) leaves, Ramberg's scholly is almost surely a 1 year deal- you have the 2 open slots right there. One player at the very least is going to leave- that is a lock- it happens every year to nearly every team. I'd say that the average team now has 2-3 departures per year.
 

scools12 said:
Exactly what long odds is Ben Johnson up against?

Johnson recruited these players, constructed the roster and is the head coach.

The current state of the program is all on Ben Johnson.
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The long odds are built of three components:

1. Ben's own inexperience and choices ranging from roster construction to game coaching
2. The administration's decision to put him in this spot
3. Lousy program history resulting in waning fan support and an uphill climb on recruiting high end players
 

bga1 said:
If TT (for example) leaves, Ramberg's scholly is almost surely a 1 year deal- you have the 2 open slots right there. One player at the very least is going to leave- that is a lock- it happens every year to nearly every team. I'd say that the average team now has 2-3 departures per year.
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They have 13 scholarships filled without counting Ramberg for next season right now. They would only have 1 open if TT left. Then there's still the whole 'can't keep everyone happy' problem that Ben likes to talk about when he doesn't fill all of his scholarships.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
They have 13 scholarships filled without counting Ramberg for next season right now. They would only have 1 open if TT left. Then there's still the whole 'can't keep everyone happy' problem that Ben likes to talk about when he doesn't fill all of his scholarships.
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Adding in II and PF will surely make it better.....
 

bga1 said:
The long odds are built of three components:

1. Ben's own inexperience and choices ranging from roster construction to game coaching
2. The administration's decision to put him in this spot
3. Lousy program history resulting in waning fan support and an uphill climb on recruiting high end players
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Maybe the only thing working against Johnson is #3.

The other two have nothing to do with long odds working against him. #1 and #2 are just bad decisions.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Michigan?
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Yeah, I suppose a win on the road at Michigan would be the most impressive to date even though they finished behind Rutgers in the standings last year by a game. So basically my post sucked in content and context.

Self-imposed 48 hour no posting penalty administered. 😠
 

scools12 said:
Maybe the only thing working against Johnson is #3.

The other two have nothing to do with long odds working against him. #1 and #2 are just bad decisions.
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#2 wasn't Ben's bad decision. If someone offers you 2 million to coach a team, you are going to take it with a smile and you will worry about your lack of coaching experience later
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
And Amir Coffey didn’t even get drafted…so he wasn’t that sure in the minds of nba scouts (kudos to him for making a niche living and turning out a solid nba career so far…much more than oturo…)
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I've always wondered how this Outro fellow would have been next to Oturu. Seen Outro name on this board for years lol. Coffey wingspan is what held him back in the draft, very small arms for someone his size. But he was a damn good college player, played 1-3 for us and probably was a"Villanova 4" in some offenses
 

Dupreefor3 said:
I've always wondered how this Outro fellow would have been next to Oturu. Seen Outro name on this board for years lol. Coffey wingspan is what held him back in the draft, very small arms for someone his size. But he was a damn good college player, played 1-3 for us and probably was a"Villanova 4" in some offenses
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Coffey was great for us. Very fun to watch.
 


bga1 said:
The Gophs are playing a lot of frosh minutes. We are fairly young. That said there are 4-5 other Big Ten teams getting between 30 and 40% of their minutes from frosh- some of them faring pretty well....
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I know that Illinois has a lot of freshman playing. However....all four of their freshman were ranked higher than any one of the Gophers freshman. Not to mention that they've been really up and down. Currently 1-3 in the Big Ten.

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Lots of teams who are much better than the gophers are young…and win. Which holds poorly for the gophers. This has been covered in other threads.

Other teams just get much much better freshmen. By the time our freshmen have grown and developed into juniors, they will be on the level of those other teams freshmen (who themselves will develop)
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Name some teams with as many minutes going to true freshman as the Gophers. My guess is that outside of some blue bloods pulling in blue chip recruits....you are going to have trouble finding many. And the ones that you do find....it'll be interesting to see how they are performing.

My guess is that you'll ignore this because you know that you can't back any of it up. Just trying to pass time in between St. Thomas D2 basketball games.
 

golfing18now said:
Yeah, I suppose a win on the road at Michigan would be the most impressive to date even though they finished behind Rutgers in the standings last year by a game. So basically my post sucked in content and context.

Self-imposed 48 hour no posting penalty administered. 😠
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Oh, I wouldn't go that far! 🥺 Either is arguable.
 

stocker08 said:
I know that Illinois has a lot of freshman playing. However....all four of their freshman were ranked higher than any one of the Gophers freshman. Not to mention that they've been really up and down. Currently 1-3 in the Big Ten.



Name some teams with as many minutes going to true freshman as the Gophers. My guess is that outside of some blue bloods pulling in blue chip recruits....you are going to have trouble finding many. And the ones that you do find....it'll be interesting to see how they are performing.

My guess is that you'll ignore this because you know that you can't back any of it up. Just trying to pass time in between St. Thomas D2 basketball games.
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Do bluebloods not matter in college basketball anymore?

If we are counting P5 schools, which we should since the Gophers are in a P5 conference, and P5 schools can compete for the best talent, and can compete in the NCAA tournament (last I checked)...here are some schools with similar % of total minutes played by freshmen, the Gophers are not in a unique situation, and they are doing it much more poorly than these other schools in P5 conference.

For the data on the gophers, I used Season Totals / Minnesota Golden Gophers via ESPN:

(gophers freshmen have played 38.5% of total minutes so far these season)​

  • Syracuse 10-6 (4th in the ACC) | freshmen play 42% of total minutes
  • #4 Alabama 13-2 (1st in the SEC) | freshmen play 46% of total minutes
  • #15 Arkansas 12-3 (8th in the SEC) | freshmen play 38.4% of total minutes
  • #7 UCLA 14-2 (1st in PAC-12) | freshmen play 34.3% of total minutes
BIG TEN SCHOOLS
  • Illinois 10-5 | freshmen play 37.4% of the minutes (soon to take a hit with their 5 star recruit leaving the team)
  • Michigan 9-6 | freshmen play 34.4% of total minutes
  • Ohio State 10-5 | freshmen play 41.7% of total minutes
  • #3 Purdue (15-1 1st in B10) | freshmen play 39.4% of total minutes
UST KENPOM of 189 while GOPHERS are 191 as of today | Freshmen play 38.3% of minutes

So...why Stocker08 and everyone else who uses our freshmen as a crutch, please stop. Lots of good to great teams use freshmen at or around the same amount we do...and guess what...they don't have a garbage record that we do. Stop talking about youth when there are so many teams out there who are in the same position, yet they seem to keep on trucking. Also, stop talking about our great freshmen class (this current one). They are serviceable at best. Next year is hopeful, but this year is serviceable and hopefully they grow into solid big10 rotational players...but the only one with star potentially is Payne.
 
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