How did Coyle let this happen?

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stocker08 said:
I know that Illinois has a lot of freshman playing. However....all four of their freshman were ranked higher than any one of the Gophers freshman. Not to mention that they've been really up and down. Currently 1-3 in the Big Ten.



Name some teams with as many minutes going to true freshman as the Gophers. My guess is that outside of some blue bloods pulling in blue chip recruits....you are going to have trouble finding many. And the ones that you do find....it'll be interesting to see how they are performing.

My guess is that you'll ignore this because you know that you can't back any of it up. Just trying to pass time in between St. Thomas D2 basketball games.
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Purdue for starters. They are a real good program but not blue blood.
 

bga1 said:
#2 wasn't Ben's bad decision. If someone offers you 2 million to coach a team, you are going to take it with a smile and you will worry about your lack of coaching experience later
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It is Johnson’a responsibility to make sure the Administrator didn’t make a bad hire. He doesn’t get a free pass if he fails because the Administration hired someone with a lack head coaching experience.
 
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scools12 said:
It is Johnson’a responsibility to make sure the Administrator didn’t make a bad hire. He doesn’t get a free pass if he fails because the Administration hired someone with a lack head coaching experience.
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For sure it is up to him to make them look good- while he cashes on 10 million. Smart move!
 

stocker08 said:
I know that Illinois has a lot of freshman playing. However....all four of their freshman were ranked higher than any one of the Gophers freshman. Not to mention that they've been really up and down. Currently 1-3 in the Big Ten.



Name some teams with as many minutes going to true freshman as the Gophers. My guess is that outside of some blue bloods pulling in blue chip recruits....you are going to have trouble finding many. And the ones that you do find....it'll be interesting to see how they are performing.

My guess is that you'll ignore this because you know that you can't back any of it up. Just trying to pass time in between St. Thomas D2 basketball games.
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I think Skyy Clark the Illinois best freshman left the program. Purdue struck gold with two freshman as well
 

scools12 said:
It is Johnson’a responsibility to make sure the Administrator didn’t make a bad hire. He doesn’t get a free pass if he fails because the Administration hired someone with a lack head coaching experience.
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No he doesn't but if he does fail Coyle doesn't get a free pass either. Can't rest on hiring Fleck forever
 



Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
And Amir Coffey didn’t even get drafted…so he wasn’t that sure in the minds of nba scouts (kudos to him for making a niche living and turning out a solid nba career so far…much more than oturo…)
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He could’ve got drafted. His agent told teams to not draft him at the last half of the second round so they could choose their 2 way they wanted to sign with
 


Gopherfan84 said:
He could’ve got drafted. His agent told teams to not draft him at the last half of the second round so they could choose their 2 way they wanted to sign with
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That feels like Team Coffey damage control. If your a team with that pick in the late half of the second round, and you actually wanted Amir, why wouldn’t you have choosing him versus letting him go somewhere else… either way, it worked out for him and I hope he plays as long as he wants.
 



Too many of you are simplifying this into these two options:
A) Ben Johnson's recruiting has been pretty good and we're going to win later because we have freshman playing a lot of minutes and Evans/Christie/Betts coming in next year.
B) The freshman aren't talented enough relative to the rest of the conference and our upperclassmen aren't talented enough.

To me its less about the talent. I think we generally have the talent to compete now, even with the freshman playing significant minutes, IF we had a great scheme and good coaching. I don't think Ben is putting the players in a position to win. Our shot selection is hideous. We don't move the ball, and we get almost zero penetration which is the key to getting good shots either in the lane or on the perimeter. So many of our shots are one on one moves by Battle or Garcia. These are not quality shots, with Battle being the worst offender.

Our offense is stagnant. Our shot quality sucks so we shoot a low percentage and can't score. This is NOT due to talent, but coaching. Steph Curry would shoot 25% on this team because the only shots he'd get would be challenged 30 footers. Obviously, there are some serious defensive issues as well.

My point being getting freshman playing time in and of itself does nothing. If it is getting them valuable experience running well-thought out offensive and defensive game plans designed to take advantage of our teams strengths and capitalize on the opponents weaknesses, that's great. If its just to throw them out there to get them minutes and the entire team is unorganized and confused, it could be counterproductive if anything.

I saw what I thought were flashes of an identity and some smart basketball for the Gophers under Ben last year, and now it seems to be gone. THAT is why I'm concerned, despite the talent I think we have in the freshman and next year's class.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Do bluebloods not matter in college basketball anymore?

If we are counting P5 schools, which we should since the Gophers are in a P5 conference, and P5 schools can compete for the best talent, and can compete in the NCAA tournament (last I checked)...here are some schools with similar % of total minutes played by freshmen, the Gophers are not in a unique situation, and they are doing it much more poorly than these other schools in P5 conference.

For the data on the gophers, I used Season Totals / Minnesota Golden Gophers via ESPN:

(gophers freshmen have played 38.5% of total minutes so far these season)​

  • Syracuse 10-6 (4th in the ACC) | freshmen play 42% of total minutes
  • #4 Alabama 13-2 (1st in the SEC) | freshmen play 46% of total minutes
  • #15 Arkansas 12-3 (8th in the SEC) | freshmen play 38.4% of total minutes
  • #7 UCLA 14-2 (1st in PAC-12) | freshmen play 34.3% of total minutes
BIG TEN SCHOOLS
  • Illinois 10-5 | freshmen play 37.4% of the minutes (soon to take a hit with their 5 star recruit leaving the team)
  • Michigan 9-6 | freshmen play 34.4% of total minutes
  • Ohio State 10-5 | freshmen play 41.7% of total minutes
  • #3 Purdue (15-1 1st in B10) | freshmen play 39.4% of total minutes
UST KENPOM of 189 while GOPHERS are 191 as of today | Freshmen play 38.3% of minutes

So...why Stocker08 and everyone else who uses our freshmen as a crutch, please stop. Lots of good to great teams use freshmen at or around the same amount we do...and guess what...they don't have a garbage record that we do. Stop talking about youth when there are so many teams out there who are in the same position, yet they seem to keep on trucking. Also, stop talking about our great freshmen class (this current one). They are serviceable at best. Next year is hopeful, but this year is serviceable and hopefully they grow into solid big10 rotational players...but the only one with star potentially is Payne.
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You just listed a bunch of teams that brought in top classes for the most part.

Arkansas - 2nd ranked class with three five star players
Alabama - 3rd ranked class with two five star players
Ohio State - 8th ranked class
Illinois - 10th ranked class
Michigan - 11th ranked class
UCLA - 12th ranked class with two five star players
Syracuse - 20th ranked class
Purdue - 29th ranked class

Not to mention that most of those teams were already strong prior to this class. It's not comparable. lol.....why don't you compare the Gophers football freshman to Ohio State and Alabama's next.....so we can laugh more at your terrible takes.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
No he's not, he's in year 3. He just gets an extra year. If he was one year younger, he wouldn't get that, and it would be the same as it always has been.

If this was 2019 Garcia would be a JR in year 3. Next year Treyton Thompson will be a JR in year 3.
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Year 3 in school. Year 2 in terms of eligibility.

Are RS-Sophomores really Juniors? Are they considered upperclassmen?
 

bga1 said:
Purdue for starters. They are a real good program but not blue blood.
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Purdue is a small step down from a true blue blood.....but their program has been strong for a very long time.
 



stocker08 said:
You just listed a bunch of teams that brought in top classes for the most part.

Arkansas - 2nd ranked class with three five star players
Alabama - 3rd ranked class with two five star players
Ohio State - 8th ranked class
Illinois - 10th ranked class
Michigan - 11th ranked class
UCLA - 12th ranked class with two five star players
Syracuse - 20th ranked class
Purdue - 29th ranked class

Not to mention that most of those teams were already strong prior to this class. It's not comparable. lol.....why don't you compare the Gophers football freshman to Ohio State and Alabama's next.....so we can laugh more at your terrible takes.
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So we can never do that? No good things here? I don't recall Arkansas being a national power before they got a certain coach a few years back. I like Ben's recruiting. All of our current frost are doing fine and would be better with a really good PG.
 

bga1 said:
So we can never do that? No good things here? I don't recall Arkansas being a national power before they got a certain coach a few years back. I like Ben's recruiting. All of our current frost are doing fine and would be better with a really good PG.
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Where are you getting this from? Ben Johnson is only in his second year of being a head coach. Were you expecting top ten classes from him this early on?
 


stocker08 said:
Where are you getting this from? Ben Johnson is only in his second year of being a head coach.
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You can't get this kind of information just anywhere!
stocker08 said:
Were you expecting top ten classes from him this early on?
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Absolutely not. I think Purdue was ranked 29th. We have the 43rd ranked class right there with Arizona, Iowa State and Baylor. That didn't count the transfers of Garcia, Cooper and Samuels. It was a nice group for Ben, not fantastically constructed by position but a really good group that I think you can compete with. If we can get a couple of really good portal guards - we should be solid next year. That's my hope and expectation.

What would be acceptable for you next year? There is no right or wrong here, I'm just wondering.
 

DarthGopher said:
Year 3 in school. Year 2 in terms of eligibility.

Are RS-Sophomores really Juniors? Are they considered upperclassmen?
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Garcia did not redshirt though. This is year 3 of eligibility, he just gets 5 years of eligibility if he chooses to, or 6 if he redshirted. Everyone else post 2020 still only gets 4 years of eligibility, or 5 years of if they redshirt, just like it was prior to 2020.

So while Garcia is listed as a Sophomore currently, because 2020 'did not count', this is still his 3rd year playing. If you're making an apples to apples comparison, he's a JR compared to those who didn't play in 2020. When Treyton Thompson, Ola-Joseph, Carrington, Payne, and Henley are in their 3rd year playing, they will all be JRs and not SOs.
 
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bga1 said:
You can't get this kind of information just anywhere!

Absolutely not. I think Purdue was ranked 29th. We have the 43rd ranked class right there with Arizona, Iowa State and Baylor. That didn't count the transfers of Garcia, Cooper and Samuels. It was a nice group for Ben, not fantastically constructed by position but a really good group that I think you can compete with. If we can get a couple of really good portal guards - we should be solid next year. That's my hope and expectation.

What would be acceptable for you next year? There is no right or wrong here, I'm just wondering.
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I honestly don't have a bar set for next year. The most glaring issue I see right now is a lack of guys who can run the point/offense. Johnson needs to bring in a transfer. That one position could be the difference. Until then....I'm looking to see guys improve as they gain experience. On top of the freshman....who seem to be getting more comfortable....I think even Garcia has taken noticeable steps. Lots of good pieces on this team. Need a guard or two to pull things together.
 

stocker08 said:
You just listed a bunch of teams that brought in top classes for the most part.

Arkansas - 2nd ranked class with three five star players
Alabama - 3rd ranked class with two five star players
Ohio State - 8th ranked class
Illinois - 10th ranked class
Michigan - 11th ranked class
UCLA - 12th ranked class with two five star players
Syracuse - 20th ranked class
Purdue - 29th ranked class

Not to mention that most of those teams were already strong prior to this class. It's not comparable. lol.....why don't you compare the Gophers football freshman to Ohio State and Alabama's next.....so we can laugh more at your terrible takes.
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Not sure which homegrown ranking site you use...but I use rivals.com and double check with ESPN.com for player rankings as well.

you can twist your argument however you want so it looks like the gophers freshmen are the only ones playing...

Of the schools (according to rivals.com) in the top 30 of team rankings class of 2022 to be higher than the gophers (#29) in % of minutes played by freshmen is Alabama and Purdue (note I didn't check Duke as I assumed it was a given). Also when I looked at all the P5 schools, there are many in which the freshmen are getting no minutes, which means they are most likely redshirting...and will be freshmen next year. So these schools will be powers with their higher ranked recruiting classes.

But ultimately, you just want to be able to say that the gophers are doing it with more average talent...well I guess that is a win for me in that you are admitting that our talent is average.


*as for your Ohio State comment, neither ESPN has them with a 5 star player or Rivals has them listed in the top 50 team rankings* - so maybe stop using janky ranking sites

Here is Rivals site team rankings for class of 2022 https://n.rivals.com/team_rankings/2022/all-teams/basketball along with ESPN's top 100 for class of 2022 http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2022/order/true
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Not sure which homegrown ranking site you use...but I use rivals.com and double check with ESPN.com for player rankings as well.

you can twist your argument however you want so it looks like the gophers freshmen are the only ones playing...

Of the schools (according to rivals.com) in the top 30 of team rankings class of 2022 to be higher than the gophers (#29) in % of minutes played by freshmen is Alabama and Purdue (note I didn't check Duke as I assumed it was a given). Also when I looked at all the P5 schools, there are many in which the freshmen are getting no minutes, which means they are most likely redshirting...and will be freshmen next year. So these schools will be powers with their higher ranked recruiting classes.

But ultimately, you just want to be able to say that the gophers are doing it with more average talent...well I guess that is a win for me in that you are admitting that our talent is average.


*as for your Ohio State comment, neither ESPN has them with a 5 star player or Rivals has them listed in the top 50 team rankings* - so maybe stop using janky ranking sites

Here is Rivals site team rankings for class of 2022 https://n.rivals.com/team_rankings/2022/all-teams/basketball along with ESPN's top 100 for class of 2022 http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2022/order/true
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Rivals and ESPN are trash in comparison to 247. lol @ janky rating sites. You had to go dumpster diving to attempt to strengthen your already terrible argument.

247sports.com

2022 Recruit Basketball Team Rankings

In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting Ranking is solely based on the 247Sports Composite Rating.
247sports.com 247sports.com

Let's not also forget that seven of the eight teams you mentioned were in the tournament last year. Already established teams with depth. Syracuse is the one exception....and take a quick look at their schedule. Not exactly world beaters this year.

Gophers are building from the ground up. Those teams are already established. We got some good freshman that are gaining a bunch of experience and it will pay off.

Sorry to break it to you....but St. Thomas will always be a 'who gives a shit' team.
 

ekeg0002 said:
Too many of you are simplifying this into these two options:
A) Ben Johnson's recruiting has been pretty good and we're going to win later because we have freshman playing a lot of minutes and Evans/Christie/Betts coming in next year.
B) The freshman aren't talented enough relative to the rest of the conference and our upperclassmen aren't talented enough.

To me its less about the talent. I think we generally have the talent to compete now, even with the freshman playing significant minutes, IF we had a great scheme and good coaching. I don't think Ben is putting the players in a position to win. Our shot selection is hideous. We don't move the ball, and we get almost zero penetration which is the key to getting good shots either in the lane or on the perimeter. So many of our shots are one on one moves by Battle or Garcia. These are not quality shots, with Battle being the worst offender.

Our offense is stagnant. Our shot quality sucks so we shoot a low percentage and can't score. This is NOT due to talent, but coaching. Steph Curry would shoot 25% on this team because the only shots he'd get would be challenged 30 footers. Obviously, there are some serious defensive issues as well.

My point being getting freshman playing time in and of itself does nothing. If it is getting them valuable experience running well-thought out offensive and defensive game plans designed to take advantage of our teams strengths and capitalize on the opponents weaknesses, that's great. If its just to throw them out there to get them minutes and the entire team is unorganized and confused, it could be counterproductive if anything.

I saw what I thought were flashes of an identity and some smart basketball for the Gophers under Ben last year, and now it seems to be gone. THAT is why I'm concerned, despite the talent I think we have in the freshman and next year's class.
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This is a great response.
 

Where has Ben been successful at basketball post his high school days?
 

S
stocker08 said:
Rivals and ESPN are trash in comparison to 247. lol @ janky rating sites. You had to go dumpster diving to attempt to strengthen your already terrible argument.

247sports.com

2022 Recruit Basketball Team Rankings

In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting Ranking is solely based on the 247Sports Composite Rating.
247sports.com 247sports.com

Let's not also forget that seven of the eight teams you mentioned were in the tournament last year. Already established teams with depth. Syracuse is the one exception....and take a quick look at their schedule. Not exactly world beaters this year.

Gophers are building from the ground up. Those teams are already established. We got some good freshman that are gaining a bunch of experience and it will pay off.

Sorry to break it to you....but St. Thomas will always be a 'who gives a shit' team.
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o we can only compare against average freshmen (check), and we can’t compare against good programs (check). Looking forward to this future of measuring against the best. We might as well measure ourselves against the summit league.

Heck UST freshmen play more and they have a higher net ranking, higher KENPOM, and they are a lower ranking recruiting class…doesn’t that satisfy your arguement?
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
S

o we can only compare against average freshmen (check), and we can’t compare against good programs (check). Looking forward to this future of measuring against the best. We might as well measure ourselves against the summit league.

Heck UST freshmen play more and they have a higher net ranking, higher KENPOM, and they are a lower ranking recruiting class…doesn’t that satisfy your arguement?
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Pulling out the strawman. Surprised it took this long.

St. Thomas plays against the dregs of college basketball and will never do better than pulling the Gophers leftovers. Hate to break it to you.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
S

o we can only compare against average freshmen (check), and we can’t compare against good programs (check). Looking forward to this future of measuring against the best. We might as well measure ourselves against the summit league.

Heck UST freshmen play more and they have a higher net ranking, higher KENPOM, and they are a lower ranking recruiting class…doesn’t that satisfy your arguement?
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This stocker dude isn't all there.
 


We've got one guy who named himself 'crappie' and another named 'wet blanket'. Good idea of what to expect right off the bat. But god bless them anyways....for attempting to troll despite being quite a few cards shy of a full deck. Gold star stickers for both! Non-toxic...of course.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
I’m still trying to figure out which teams we are allowed to compare ourselves to.
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Try watching the game and the players on the team, then review if they are getting better.
I see improvement. It seems you cannot see that.
 

ekeg0002 said:
Too many of you are simplifying this into these two options:
A) Ben Johnson's recruiting has been pretty good and we're going to win later because we have freshman playing a lot of minutes and Evans/Christie/Betts coming in next year.
B) The freshman aren't talented enough relative to the rest of the conference and our upperclassmen aren't talented enough.

To me its less about the talent. I think we generally have the talent to compete now, even with the freshman playing significant minutes, IF we had a great scheme and good coaching. I don't think Ben is putting the players in a position to win. Our shot selection is hideous. We don't move the ball, and we get almost zero penetration which is the key to getting good shots either in the lane or on the perimeter. So many of our shots are one on one moves by Battle or Garcia. These are not quality shots, with Battle being the worst offender.

Our offense is stagnant. Our shot quality sucks so we shoot a low percentage and can't score. This is NOT due to talent, but coaching. Steph Curry would shoot 25% on this team because the only shots he'd get would be challenged 30 footers. Obviously, there are some serious defensive issues as well.

My point being getting freshman playing time in and of itself does nothing. If it is getting them valuable experience running well-thought out offensive and defensive game plans designed to take advantage of our teams strengths and capitalize on the opponents weaknesses, that's great. If its just to throw them out there to get them minutes and the entire team is unorganized and confused, it could be counterproductive if anything.

I saw what I thought were flashes of an identity and some smart basketball for the Gophers under Ben last year, and now it seems to be gone. THAT is why I'm concerned, despite the talent I think we have in the freshman and next year's class.
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This is all due to coaching? After coaching young people for 30 years, I've found that when you're coaching them every day for long periods of time, you gain a really good idea of what they can do and what they can't. If you don't have that information, it's a lot harder to tease out what's poor coaching and what's a player's inability to grasp something.

This team has shown a great deal of improvement the last 2 games, and that certainly doesn't mean they're a great team, but I'd be very surprised if they're not a much better team by the end of the year. I realize that's your opinion, which you're free to have, and my opinion is that Johnson did a very good job of coaching a team with extremely limited talent last year. This year's problems are mostly on inconsistent play from their veterans (Battle, Garcia, Cooper), and inconsistent play from his freshmen. It will get better, and I don't believe this is all on the coach, although that's an easy place to put the blame. End of next year, let's see where we're at.
 

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