Wisconsin made a bold move, do we have the nerve to do the same?

Live in the now

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Not very many programs can.
Baylor
LSU a little?
Historically Ohio state and Michigan also. Badgers have had a few through but built the program with one or 2. I’m sure you many strive for that but it’s hard. But the ones that switch constantly seem to be a train wreck. I think pat f in northwestern has done an amazing job considering what he has to work with.
 

tjgopher

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Here's what I'm worried about:

TCU and Gary Patterson. (You all remember Kill's best man, right??)


2014 they have an incredible year 11-1, finish ranked #5 in the (first ever) final CFP rankings. Win a NY6 bowl to ultimately finish 12-1. Had a couple very good years after that, as well.

But Patterson was fired after last year after 8 games.

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They hire a new coach this year -- BOOM -- sitting at 11-0.



Point is simply: they waited wayyyyy too long, excrutiatingly too long, to fire Patterson.


Is that how it's going to end up with Fleck???

Yet, who could have predicted that Sonny Dykes would do that? And, at this point, who is to say he can continue the success? Big 12 adds Cincy, BYU, etc. Baylor and Okie State ain't going away.

And, who's to say Garry Patterson wouldn't have made a run against the weak ass Big 12 schedule this year had they kept him on? He can coach, we know that. Maybe he was building to this year recruiting wise. No one can say for sure.

Sonny Dykes was fired at Cal. He had some moderate success at SMU.

Prior to this season, if the U fired Fleck to hire Dykes, that would be quite an interesting and overwhelmingly criticized everywhere. (and I know you're not suggesting that)

But, the point is, there are no right answers, really. TCU fans weren't thrilled with the Dykes hire. There were fans from other Big 12 programs thinking TCU should get kicked out of the league because they weren't going to be competitive. They were picked anywhere from 7th-9th in a 10-team league. Kansas was universally picked last.

And yet, here is TCU undefeated, playing a quarterback that wasn't even their starter at the beginning of the season.

So, who knew?

Its a crapshoot. For every Sonny Dykes, there's a Tim Brewster.

One thing you're right about is knowing when/if to pull the trigger and whom to hire. And, even the smartest ADs don't really know.

And, at places like Minnesota it is undoubtedly much harder to determine because so much has to go right to have sustained success even with a good coach. With a bad coach, it is easier to tell.
 
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Gophers_4life

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Yet, who could have predicted that Sonny Dykes would do that? And, at this point, who is to say he can continue the success? Big 12 adds Cincy, BYU, etc. Baylor and Okie State ain't going away.

And, who's to say Garry Patterson wouldn't have made a run against the weak ass Big 12 schedule this year had they kept him on? He can coach, we know that. Maybe he was building to this year recruiting wise. No one can say for sure.

Sonny Dykes was fired at Cal. He had some moderate success at SMU.

Prior to this season, if the U fired Fleck to hire Dykes, that would be quite an interesting and overwhelmingly criticized everywhere. (and I know you're not suggesting that)

But, the point is, there are no right answers, really. TCU fans weren't thrilled with the Dykes hire. There were fans from other Big 12 programs thinking TCU should get kicked out of the league because they weren't going to be competitive. They were picked anywhere from 7th-9th in a 10-team league. Kansas was universally picked last.

And yet, here is TCU undefeated, playing a quarterback that wasn't even their starter at the beginning of the season.

So, who knew?

Its a crapshoot. For every Sonny Dykes, there's a Tim Brewster.

One thing you're right about is knowing when/if to pull the trigger and whom to hire. And, even the smartest ADs don't really know.

And, at places like Minnesota it is undoubtedly much harder to determine because so much has to go right to have sustained success even with a good coach. With a bad coach, it is easier to tell.
Great post, thanks.

And credit to other posters who did say things like this, too. Fair enough
 

Gophers_4life

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It's just .... TC f____ing U. They can do it.

And weren't we even recruit that QB at one point?? Duggan? Seems to ring a bell, but I might've been making that up.


They were nothing in the old Southwest Conf. Got kicked out when the Big 12 was formed, Baylor went instead. Mired down in G5. Then they have that crazy year where they beat Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl and the rest is history.
 



disco

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It's just .... TC f____ing U. They can do it.

And weren't we even recruit that QB at one point?? Duggan? Seems to ring a bell, but I might've been making that up.


They were nothing in the old Southwest Conf. Got kicked out when the Big 12 was formed, Baylor went instead. Mired down in G5. Then they have that crazy year where they beat Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl and the rest is history.
Baylor got in instead of Houston for political reasons. Houston was supposed to go to the Big 12, keeping the public schools from the SWC together.

Like all the old SWC schools (except Rice), TCU was paying people under the table. It was Jim Wacker who put a stop to it, before coming to Minnesota. He self reported the violations.

I have no reason to believe they don't have big NIL money, considering they're located in the DFW metro, in football crazed Texas. The whole Pony Express stuff at SMU was led by wealthy alumni who wanted winning football.
 

disco

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Well, I'd like to know the actual numbers myself.

Not sure if you have to have passed Sunday school to attend TCU, or if that's just a historical name.
Kind of historical. They are affiliated with the Disciples of Christ (never heard of it) church, but are not a church-run school like say Notre Dame.
 

Gophers_4life

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Ooo Disciples. I like the name. Very Skull & Bones -esque.

Have to get tatoo across your chest once you pass the final test.
 

Gophers_4life

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Baylor got in instead of Houston for political reasons. Houston was supposed to go to the Big 12, keeping the public schools from the SWC together.

Like all the old SWC schools (except Rice), TCU was paying people under the table. It was Jim Wacker who put a stop to it, before coming to Minnesota. He self reported the violations.

I have no reason to believe they don't have big NIL money, considering they're located in the DFW metro, in football crazed Texas. The whole Pony Express stuff at SMU was led by wealthy alumni who wanted winning football.
Ah.

There is the connection I didn't realize at all, until now. Thank you.


I vaugely knew Wacker was from the South, I did not know he came from TCU and that there was "that stuff" going on there too. I knew of SMU's death penalty, seems like TCU got near a similar thing.

From Wacker's Wikipedia page:

There was much hype surrounding the Frogs going into the 1985 season, and Wacker appeared on the cover of Dave Campbell's Texas Football alongside his All-American running back, Kenneth Davis, a finalist for the Heisman Trophy in 1984 and a leading candidate for the award in 1985. After the first game of the season, Wacker discovered that several players, including Davis, had been benefiting from a payment plan in violation of NCAA rules. Wacker promptly kicked the players off the team and self-reported the infractions to the NCAA, cementing his reputation as a man of integrity. In 1986, the NCAA slapped TCU with three years' probation and a ban on postseason play in the 1986 season. The most severe penalty in the long run, however, was a reduction to only 25 scholarships in 1987 and 1988. To this day, Horned Frog fans remain bitter that the NCAA imposed such a severe penalty given that the violations were voluntarily reported.[1] As heavy-handed as this penalty was, the NCAA seriously considered banning the Horned Frogs from bowl games and live television for three years and no new scholarships in 1987 or 1988.
 



Gophers_4life

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So, yeah, probably at least some of those boosters are still around, or their money is, 35-ish years later, and now they can spend on players with almost no restraints.
 

Panthadad2

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Ah.

There is the connection I didn't realize at all, until now. Thank you.


I vaugely knew Wacker was from the South, I did not know he came from TCU and that there was "that stuff" going on there too. I knew of SMU's death penalty, seems like TCU got near a similar thing.

From Wacker's Wikipedia page:

There was much hype surrounding the Frogs going into the 1985 season, and Wacker appeared on the cover of Dave Campbell's Texas Football alongside his All-American running back, Kenneth Davis, a finalist for the Heisman Trophy in 1984 and a leading candidate for the award in 1985. After the first game of the season, Wacker discovered that several players, including Davis, had been benefiting from a payment plan in violation of NCAA rules. Wacker promptly kicked the players off the team and self-reported the infractions to the NCAA, cementing his reputation as a man of integrity. In 1986, the NCAA slapped TCU with three years' probation and a ban on postseason play in the 1986 season. The most severe penalty in the long run, however, was a reduction to only 25 scholarships in 1987 and 1988. To this day, Horned Frog fans remain bitter that the NCAA imposed such a severe penalty given that the violations were voluntarily reported.[1] As heavy-handed as this penalty was, the NCAA seriously considered banning the Horned Frogs from bowl games and live television for three years and no new scholarships in 1987 or 1988.

Moral of the story, never self-report to the NCAA. Never. Ever.
 


disco

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Wacker was a legit coach at lower levels of the game. Two NAIA titles, two D2 titles at Texas State, Two D2 semifinals at NDSU. Texas State named their football field for him when he died.

We like to make fun of him "geezo beezo" but in hindsight, he's someone you would totally consider hiring, especially right from another major conference program in TCU. He was not Tim Brewster.

And yes, I do believe that there is still plenty of money to be spent on college football in Texas. Now granted, there are lot more FBS programs in the state now than there were then, so some of that cash is probably spread around more.
 



CentralGopher

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This is an interesting thing to say.


It's hard for me to accept that any staff is actively not trying to make it better/do better. Certainly, the results may not hold.

Why do you think Mason was not trying, and why do you think Fleck is trying?


All the BS Fleck spouts with his slogans and culture, does not equate to "trying" for me.
Mason had given up recruiting. That was obvious he wasn’t even trying anymore.
 

Some guy

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Wacker was a legit coach at lower levels of the game. Two NAIA titles, two D2 titles at Texas State, Two D2 semifinals at NDSU. Texas State named their football field for him when he died.

We like to make fun of him "geezo beezo" but in hindsight, he's someone you would totally consider hiring, especially right from another major conference program in TCU. He was not Tim Brewster.

And yes, I do believe that there is still plenty of money to be spent on college football in Texas. Now granted, there are lot more FBS programs in the state now than there were then, so some of that cash is probably spread around more.
Wacker was a horrible hire
He was 40-58-2 (21-48-1) at TCU


He was worse than Tim Brewster. At least Brewster didn’t have a history of failure at the major conference level already.

If he won 4 more games at Minnesota he would’ve had a higher winning percentage in conference at MN than TCU. That’s how bad he was at TCU. Wacker was maybe the worst hire in the history of Minnesota sports.
 
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GopherGod

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Rich Texan Christians??

Sonny Dykes gets six years and "close to" $30M. We don't pay Fleck that much but don't think we're that far off?
TCU has tons of ultra rich boosters. Patterson was one of the highest paid coaches in the country when there but a lot of it wasn’t reported as a private schools. He was given part ownership of some oil and gas leases from their rich oil alumni that was off the books salary. Minnesota couldn’t come close to compete with them money wise.
 

PhiloVance

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So wait for it to get worse?
Schedule next year includes North Carolina, Michigan, Ohio State besides Mich State and teams in the western division. Remember no Mo. It should be an interesting and exciting year. We'll have the opportunity to have Floyd of Rosedale, the Ax, and the Little Brown Jug all in MN.

GO GOPHERS!
 

disco

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Wacker was a horrible hire
He was 40-58-2 (21-48-1) at TCU


He was worse than Tim Brewster. At least Brewster didn’t have a history of failure at the major conference level already.

If he won 4 more games at Minnesota he would’ve had a higher winning percentage in conference at MN than TCU. That’s how bad he was at TCU. Wacker was maybe the worst hire in the history of Minnesota sports.
He was under probation for three of those years at TCU, because he self-reported. He had multiple coach of the year awards at the lower levels. He was a good football coach.
 

schw0509

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He recruited the kicker who missed the FG.

He overworked his star running back which probably contributed to the fumble.

He put together an offense where he feels like he needs to overwork his star running back to have a chance.

Not saying it's time to fire him but at this point the everything comes back to him. These are all his recruits so there's no one else to blame.
This is so...Minnesota. Fleck's tenure stands alone as the best modern coach we've had. Recruited the best QB (career-wise), best RB (ever!), best season since the 1960s (11-2). Too many trolls on this page.
Do we think Iowa or Wisconsin would tolerate as many consecutive losses to Minnesota as we have to Iowa?
 

schw0509

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Schedule next year includes North Carolina, Michigan, Ohio State besides Mich State and teams in the western division. Remember no Mo. It should be an interesting and exciting year. We'll have the opportunity to have Floyd of Rosedale, the Ax, and the Little Brown Jug all in MN.

GO GOPHERS!
I'm pumped for next season! Going to the NC game and excited for Athan and what I expect to be a new look offense that isn't as run focused, based on the personnel we'll have (including a rocket arm at QB!)
 


FredCoxRocks

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Do we think Iowa or Wisconsin would tolerate as many consecutive losses to Minnesota as we have to Iowa?
Rinse and repeat. We've tried that many times over the past 50 years. It hasn't worked well. We sit and wait for 5 years or so for something good to happen, then after a bad stretch, another trophy-game loss, or a bad bowl game, we pull the plug and start all over thinking some legendary coach is going to come here and never does, and we end up hiring some MAC coach and hope for the best.
Coyle is not firing PJ Fleck. The couple dozen fans that comment on the StarTrib or create a GopherHole account to bitch about the coach will have to understand that.
 

Spoofin

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Rinse and repeat. We've tried that many times over the past 50 years. It hasn't worked well. We sit and wait for 5 years or so for something good to happen, then after a bad stretch, another trophy-game loss, or a bad bowl game, we pull the plug and start all over thinking some legendary coach is going to come here and never does, and we end up hiring some MAC coach and hope for the best.
Coyle is not firing PJ Fleck. The couple dozen fans that comment on the StarTrib or create a GopherHole account to bitch about the coach will have to understand that.
I agree Coyle isn’t going to fire PJ. I don’t even think he should. That has its own downside tho - we will continue to get more of the same. I think that is what has some fans down 🤷‍♂️
 

Panthadad2

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I agree Coyle isn’t going to fire PJ. I don’t even think he should. That has its own downside tho - we will continue to get more of the same. I think that is what has some fans down 🤷‍♂️

I’d say 0-6 versus Iowa is about as predictable and “more of the same” as it gets.
 

Gophers_4life

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Mason had given up recruiting. That was obvious he wasn’t even trying anymore.
Really? That seems shocking to me, but I was not around (as a fan) back then. What about his staff? He actively instructed them to not recruit, at all??
 

Gophers_4life

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Rinse and repeat. We've tried that many times over the past 50 years. It hasn't worked well. We sit and wait for 5 years or so for something good to happen, then after a bad stretch, another trophy-game loss, or a bad bowl game, we pull the plug and start all over thinking some legendary coach is going to come here and never does, and we end up hiring some MAC coach and hope for the best.
Coyle is not firing PJ Fleck. The couple dozen fans that comment on the StarTrib or create a GopherHole account to bitch about the coach will have to understand that.
OK.

So ... why does it work for Wisconsin? Why do they get to do it, but we don't?

Coaches like Madison, Wisconsin, but hate Minneapolis, MN? Makes no sense to me ....
 


MNVCGUY

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Really? That seems shocking to me, but I was not around (as a fan) back then. What about his staff? He actively instructed them to not recruit, at all??
Mason checked out once he knew he was never going to be the head coach at Ohio State. They still went through the motions for a few more years but it was clear things were not going to end well. He didn't want to deal with the administration, high school coaches, media....

They still recruited but the effort level was not where it needed to be.
 

Gophers_4life

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Well, the message/lesson is obvious:

fire Mason earlier, and hire Jerry Kill to replace him.


Imagine ....
 

CentralGopher

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Really? That seems shocking to me, but I was not around (as a fan) back then. What about his staff? He actively instructed them to not recruit, at all??
Never said they didn’t recruit but it was obvious Mason gave up trying to get better recruits and stuck with his 2 stars and lightly recruited players with no effort to get better recruits.
 




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