Will the next starting RB please step up?

RememberMurray

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
4,911
Reaction score
3,393
Points
113
It's never going to be an exact science and reasonable people can disagree. I don't really have an exact pitch count and it's likely different for different people. I would think of handing the running backs similar to how you'd handle a pitching staff. It's never going to be exact.

I probably would have put Mo on around a 20 carry pitch count (~250-260 for the full season). Ideally, With Potts, it probably would have been 15-20. With Bucko, I'm probably more like 12-15. It depends on the person. Would it have prevented injuries? Surely not, it's a violent position. Do I think it would help reduce the chance of injury? Most likely.

Yes, as I said earlier I agree in general with the idea of spreading the carries out, and Fleck has stated as much.

Mo might be the exception, though, for me. As MNVCGUY pointed out, Mo seemed to get stronger and stronger at the end of games. It seemed to wear the opponents' defense out. If I was a coach attempting to install a winning culture in a program, I'd find it hard to say no to watching that unfold. It was inspiring.

I can think of many examples. I still can picture Mo rumbling toward the end zone and then sliding feet first, going down intentionally to keep the clock running, at the end of the Nebraska game last season.

I think Mo's sheer relentlessness was a helluva a psychological weapon for the Gophers. You could almost see the opposing defenders thinking, "Oh, God... here he comes again!"

And Potts seemed to have some of the same traits.
 

Dakota2

Active member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
230
Reaction score
217
Points
43
OL and DL smash into each other every play. Sometimes RB don't even hit anyone on a play.
OL and DL guys smash into each other from a couple feet at all. Sometimes they don't even hit anyone on a play (see Big Dan vs BG).

Running backs also hit guys at full speed and quite often the other guy is going at full speed. Quite a difference.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
14,147
Reaction score
3,992
Points
113
Yes, as I said earlier I agree in general with the idea of spreading the carries out, and Fleck has stated as much.

Mo might be the exception, though, for me. As MNVCGUY pointed out, Mo seemed to get stronger and stronger at the end of games. It seemed to wear the opponents' defense out. If I was a coach attempting to install a winning culture in a program, I'd find it hard to say no to watching that unfold. It was inspiring.

I can think of many examples. I still can picture Mo rumbling toward the end zone and then sliding feet first, going down intentionally to keep the clock running, at the end of the Nebraska game last season.

I think Mo's sheer relentlessness was a helluva a psychological weapon for the Gophers. You could almost see the opposing defenders thinking, "Oh, God... here he comes again!"

And Potts seemed to have some of the same traits.
Yep, and they're both on the sidelines now.

The only season we can really look at is 2020. In 2019, he split carries and a much fresher Mo was running over folks. I agree, I love watching Mo run against teams at the end of the game. I think it would be considerably more fun watching him get carries 20-22 in the 4th quarter than 29-30. As for getting stronger in the games, some of them. He did against Nebraska and Wisconsin last year. He also fell off quite a bit in the second half against Maryland and Purdue.

The thing that really strikes me is the amount of touches he was getting when the games weren't in doubt in the Iowa, Illinois, and Michigan games. There was no reason for Mo to be getting 20 carries in the second halves of those games.

Obviously, I'm coming from the vantage point that fatigue can increase the chance of injury. If you don't believe that, I guess it makes sense to run the RB who has more carries than anyone in the country to the max in meaningless snaps.
 


STPGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
6,649
Reaction score
935
Points
113
Yep, and they're both on the sidelines now.

The only season we can really look at is 2020. In 2019, he split carries and a much fresher Mo was running over folks. I agree, I love watching Mo run against teams at the end of the game. I think it would be considerably more fun watching him get carries 20-22 in the 4th quarter than 29-30. As for getting stronger in the games, some of them. He did against Nebraska and Wisconsin last year. He also fell off quite a bit in the second half against Maryland and Purdue.

The thing that really strikes me is the amount of touches he was getting when the games weren't in doubt in the Iowa, Illinois, and Michigan games. There was no reason for Mo to be getting 20 carries in the second halves of those games.

Obviously, I'm coming from the vantage point that fatigue can increase the chance of injury. If you don't believe that, I guess it makes sense to run the RB who has more carries than anyone in the country to the max in meaningless snaps.
For Mo, I think the staff and team really wanted to help Mo get into position to be considered for top RB awards. Part of that is often racking up yardage. That and the OSU game was obviously still in question. Mo himself would most likely say give me the ball. So that means that the OC/ coaches need to spread the love. Hard to do against a team like OSU.
 


RememberMurray

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
4,911
Reaction score
3,393
Points
113
Yep, and they're both on the sidelines now.

Well, as I said you haven't proved, to my mind, that those injuries were caused by too many carries. You've pointed out correctly that if each player had not had that very last carry, they wouldn't have gotten hurt. And you have also correctly pointed out that more carries increase the risk, but since you've also admitted that a player can get injured on their very first snap, it seems like a fairly shaky argument.

In fact, in Trey's case, I was under the impression that we don't really know enough about his situation to say definitively that he was injured, as opposed to being taken ill (appendix, spleen, myocarditis, etc).

The only season we can really look at is 2020. In 2019, he split carries and a much fresher Mo was running over folks. I agree, I love watching Mo run against teams at the end of the game. I think it would be considerably more fun watching him get carries 20-22 in the 4th quarter than 29-30. As for getting stronger in the games, some of them. He did against Nebraska and Wisconsin last year. He also fell off quite a bit in the second half against Maryland and Purdue.

Earlier you said it would be difficult to set an exact 'pitch count'. Now you seem to be setting it at 20-22.


The thing that really strikes me is the amount of touches he was getting when the games weren't in doubt in the Iowa, Illinois, and Michigan games. There was no reason for Mo to be getting 20 carries in the second halves of those games.

Obviously, I'm coming from the vantage point that fatigue can increase the chance of injury. If you don't believe that, I guess it makes sense to run the RB who has more carries than anyone in the country to the max in meaningless snaps.

It's hard for me to say I agree or disagree with this particular point about 'meaningless snaps', since you haven't supplied any hard information regarding Mo's actual number of carries and the scores at particular times in those games. At what point in each of those games did you come to consider the games out of reach, and the snaps to therefore be meaningless? How many carries did Mo get in those games after that arbitrary point had been passed?

As far as fatigue is concerned, I understood all along that you were taking the position that fatigue can increase the chance of injury. Mpls stated that no one here was saying that, and I refuted him by quoting your posts.
 
Last edited:

RememberMurray

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Messages
4,911
Reaction score
3,393
Points
113
For Mo, I think the staff and team really wanted to help Mo get into position to be considered for top RB awards. Part of that is often racking up yardage. That and the OSU game was obviously still in question. Mo himself would most likely say give me the ball. So that means that the OC/ coaches need to spread the love. Hard to do against a team like OSU.

Yeah, I think it's pretty hard to take your best player out of the Ohio State game when you're fighting hard for a win in front of a sellout crowd against one of the top teams in the country. When Mo got hurt, we were still very much in that game.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
14,147
Reaction score
3,992
Points
113
Well, as I said you haven't proved that those injuries were caused by too many carries, beyond pointing out that if they each had not had that last carry, they wouldn't have gotten hurt. And in Trey's case, I don't think we know enough to even say that much definitively.



Earlier you said it would be difficult to set an exact 'pitch count'. Now you seem to be setting it at 20-22.




It's hard for me to say I agree or disagree with this point about meaningless touches, since you haven't supplied any hard information regarding actual number of carries and scores in the games. At what point in each of those games did did you come to consider those games out of reach, and the snaps to therefore be meaningless? How many carries did Mo get in those games after that arbitrary point had been passed?

As far as fatigue is concerned, I understood all along that you were taking the position that fatigue can increase the chance of injury. Mpls stated that no one was saying that, and I refuted him by quoting your posts.
(1) What is with you people and asking for hard data? I don't have to prove my opinion and I would never ask other people to prove theirs with hard data. It's a weird thing to say. You're the same guy that thought it was some conspiracy that people were saying Potts was hurt at Purdue. Frankly, your ability to come to a logical conclusion isn't something I find to be super impressive.

But, I will say this for the 100th time now, I never said the injuries were caused by getting too many touches. We will never know. It's impossible to know. I'm saying that, IN MY OPINION, fatigue can lead to injuries. I think a RB can carry the ball too much in a game and I think fatigue can lead to injuries. I think running the ball with one person as much as PJ does leads to a greater chance of injury. I'm not going to supply you with hard data on that opinion lol.

(2) Pitch count. Yep, it was the exact same post that I said it's not an exact science. Acute observation. LOL. In my opinion saying "around 20-22" for Mo Ibrahim isn't an exact pitch count. I would have kept him closer to 20-22 carries per game. I don't even really blame coaches for occasionally going over a pitch count. It's kind of like a pitch count (it's where the term comes from), coaches having different limits and it's not a hard and fast rule, it's just something to monitor and be mindful of. If I were a HC, my RB would never lead the nation in carries. If I were a pitching coach, I don't think my pitcher would lead the league in innings. Where would I draw that line would depend a bit on the game, player, etc. All of this is kind of common sense. I'm surprised it needs to be explained to you.

(3) I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me. I don't really think the world of your opinion (and you probably don't think the world of mine). I don't really remember the point in those games that I came to that determination, it was a year ago. If you think it makes sense for running backs to get 30 carries in 35-0 game, that's cool. Like I said, we can disagree.
 

bsce97

New member
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
18
Reaction score
20
Points
3
Miles on a car is not a good analogy. Football injuries are situational and highly unpredictable, much the same as a deer jumping in front of your new car as your driving home from the dealership.
But the question is, did the deer do it because Fleck made the deer do it?

🤔

 



Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
14,147
Reaction score
3,992
Points
113
Yeah, I think it's pretty hard to take your best player out of the Ohio State game when you're fighting hard for a win in front of a sellout crowd against one of the top teams in the country. When Mo got hurt, we were still very much in that game.
No one asked to take him out. Maybe mix in Potts a bit in the first 3 quarters.

Every other coach in the last three years, including in the Big 10 championship games, playoff games, etc., found ways to keep their starting RBs from getting even 25 carries in a full game against Ohio State. If you watched any football other than the Gophers, you'd realize that we are the outlier. I'll try to get some hard data from those coaches as to why they would be so stupid to spread the carries around.
 



bsce97

New member
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
18
Reaction score
20
Points
3
I do, why do you ask?
Since you made the car analogy at 10:13 am this morning, you've 'carried the ball' 29 times total so far. Over a 5 1/2 hour period, that works out to roughly one post every 12 minutes. Taking into consideration the time to think about and compose each reply, that is a lot of miles.

You are going to blow a wrist tendon with that workload.

🤣

 



MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
28,533
Reaction score
7,115
Points
113
Sometimes they don't even hit anyone on a play (see Big Dan vs BG).
Yowzaaa ...

OL and DL guys smash into each other from a couple feet at all.
...
Running backs also hit guys at full speed and quite often the other guy is going at full speed. Quite a difference.
Yes.

I mean, we could talk about physics (mass, acceleration, etc.). But at the end of the day, I'm fine with your point.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
28,533
Reaction score
7,115
Points
113
Since you made the car analogy at 10:13 am this morning, you've 'carried the ball' 29 times total so far. Over a 5 1/2 hour period, that works out to roughly one post every 12 minutes. Taking into consideration the time to think about and compose each reply, that is a lot of miles.

You are going to blow a wrist tendon with that workload.

🤣

Ever since he moved to Austin, TX, he seems to have more free time to post.
 

Some guy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
10,327
Reaction score
2,724
Points
113
The thing that really strikes me is the amount of touches he was getting when the games weren't in doubt in the Iowa, Illinois, and Michigan games. There was no reason for Mo to be getting 20 carries in the second halves of those games.
Yeah this didn’t make any sense
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
14,147
Reaction score
3,992
Points
113
Yeah this didn’t make any sense
Mo ran the ball 33 times against Iowa in an absolute blow out. 11 of his 33 carries came after we were down by 3 TDs with a quarter of football remaining. 7 of his carries came when we were done 35-0 with under 8 minutes left. Still confused?

Mo ran the ball 30 times against Illinois in an absolute blowout. 9 of his 30 carries came after we were up by 28 points in the 4th quarter.

I get it, you've talked yourself into believing that fatigue has absolutely nothing to do with injuries. We can put that point aside. Even using your logic, if it's just a roll of the dice and carry 1 is the same as carry 30, then why in the world would you keep rolling the dice when the game was over?

Does this point really elude you? Do you honestly think a guy who is leading the nation in rushing attempts should be getting that many carries when the game is over? If so, you don't even agree with your own logic.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
14,147
Reaction score
3,992
Points
113
Since you made the car analogy at 10:13 am this morning, you've 'carried the ball' 29 times total so far. Over a 5 1/2 hour period, that works out to roughly one post every 12 minutes. Taking into consideration the time to think about and compose each reply, that is a lot of miles.

You are going to blow a wrist tendon with that workload.

🤣

Gotcha. You think 29 posts in 5.5 hours is a ton of work.

If you're really concerned about my job, I was actually at an airport for part of this conversation and then at a starbucks for another portion of it. It takes me roughly 3 minutes to make a post (usually much less). I was actually able to watch Seinfeld on Netflix too.

90 minutes of typing isn't a huge workload for me, but thanks for looking out.
 

Some guy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
10,327
Reaction score
2,724
Points
113
Mo ran the ball 33 times against Iowa in an absolute blow out. 11 of his 33 carries came after we were down by 3 TDs with a quarter of football remaining. 7 of his carries came when we were done 35-0 with under 8 minutes left. Still confused?

Mo ran the ball 30 times against Illinois in an absolute blowout. 9 of his 30 carries came after we were up by 28 points in the 4th quarter.

I get it, you've talked yourself into believing that fatigue has absolutely nothing to do with injuries. We can put that point aside. Even using your logic, if it's just a roll of the dice and carry 1 is the same as carry 30, then why in the world would you keep rolling the dice when the game was over?

Does this point really elude you? Do you honestly think a guy who is leading the nation in rushing attempts should be getting that many carries when the game is over? If so, you don't even agree with your own logic.
I’m literally agreeing with you. You need to chill
 

Dakota2

Active member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
230
Reaction score
217
Points
43
(1) What is with you people and asking for hard data? I don't have to prove my opinion and I would never ask other people to prove theirs with hard data. It's a weird thing to say. You're the same guy that thought it was some conspiracy that people were saying Potts was hurt at Purdue. Frankly, your ability to come to a logical conclusion isn't something I find to be super impressive.

But, I will say this for the 100th time now, I never said the injuries were caused by getting too many touches. We will never know. It's impossible to know. I'm saying that, IN MY OPINION, fatigue can lead to injuries. I think a RB can carry the ball too much in a game and I think fatigue can lead to injuries. I think running the ball with one person as much as PJ does leads to a greater chance of injury. I'm not going to supply you with hard data on that opinion lol.

(2) Pitch count. Yep, it was the exact same post that I said it's not an exact science. Acute observation. LOL. In my opinion saying "around 20-22" for Mo Ibrahim isn't an exact pitch count. I would have kept him closer to 20-22 carries per game. I don't even really blame coaches for occasionally going over a pitch count. It's kind of like a pitch count (it's where the term comes from), coaches having different limits and it's not a hard and fast rule, it's just something to monitor and be mindful of. If I were a HC, my RB would never lead the nation in carries. If I were a pitching coach, I don't think my pitcher would lead the league in innings. Where would I draw that line would depend a bit on the game, player, etc. All of this is kind of common sense. I'm surprised it needs to be explained to you.

(3) I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me. I don't really think the world of your opinion (and you probably don't think the world of mine). I don't really remember the point in those games that I came to that determination, it was a year ago. If you think it makes sense for running backs to get 30 carries in 35-0 game, that's cool. Like I said, we can disagree.
And yet the pitcher who leads the league in innings is probably your MVP. Might even win Cy Young Award.
 


Dakota2

Active member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
230
Reaction score
217
Points
43
Yowzaaa ...


Yes.

I mean, we could talk about physics (mass, acceleration, etc.). But at the end of the day, I'm fine with your point.
Would have been a better point if spell check (or something) hadn't wrecked the first sentence.
 

Wally

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
11,050
Reaction score
4,862
Points
113
but what injuries do tired legs lead to exactly?
Its been shown in professional soccer players that fatigued players at the end of the half and end of game are more likely to have non contact injuries and the Achilles is a common noncontact soccer injury.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2015
Messages
17,910
Reaction score
4,744
Points
113
Since you made the car analogy at 10:13 am this morning, you've 'carried the ball' 29 times total so far. Over a 5 1/2 hour period, that works out to roughly one post every 12 minutes. Taking into consideration the time to think about and compose each reply, that is a lot of miles.

You are going to blow a wrist tendon with that workload.

🤣

I pulled a muscle just thinking about that!

🚑
 

Word

Eats difficult conversations
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
8,200
Reaction score
3,014
Points
113
Its been shown in professional soccer players that fatigued players at the end of the half and end of game are more likely to have non contact injuries and the Achilles is a common noncontact soccer injury.
Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a link to info about that?
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
28,533
Reaction score
7,115
Points
113
Its been shown in professional soccer players that fatigued players at the end of the half and end of game are more likely to have non contact injuries and the Achilles is a common noncontact soccer injury.
Achilles rupture (or just a lower grade injury??) may indeed be a kind of noncontact injury that happen in soccer at a higher rate than in other settings.

But the way you worded it here doesn't clearly say that the study claims this specific injury happens more often at the end of halves.


You could easily clear this up by just posting the link to the study.
 




Top Bottom