Why do the Tubby haters refuse to acknowledge the injuries?

[Parski1]

Some like to pretend that he's been playing with a full deck each of the last two seasons. Some say it's making excuses and say "Players get injured all the time". They conveniently ignore the fact that Mbakwe is the best Gopher in (at least) the last 15 seasons. It's not like losing a bench player or your 5th starter. The injury to Nolen by itself would not have been such a big deal had Mr. 420 not decided he liked to toke more than he liked to play basketball and left the team with no viable PGs. They also conveniently ignore the fact that, in seasons with no major season-ending injuries, he is 3-for-3 in making the postseason. But then again, none of that fits into the vitriolic anti-Tubby agenda.

I agree 100% - Tubby Haters just want to hate and forget the real problems that have hurt this team...injuries and kids making bad decisions.

 

[scher215]

OSU was coached by Tom O'Brien before Matta, O'Brien had four 20 plus win seasons, two big ten regular season co-championships and the Big Ten championship. He didn't do it cleanly and was fired because of NCAA violations, but he did have success.

Indiana had Sampson before Crean and in his two seasons he was 43-15 with a trip to the NCAA second round, again he was dirty and fired because of it but he was successful.

Iowa, the Lickliter era was a failure but Alford was decent.

So the logical conclusion is ... Tubby should start cheating!

 

[Monty519]

It's never as simple as most want to make things. People need to realize these transfers were gonna set the program back a couple years at least. And that's even if everything else went right. When you couple the transfers with injuries and criminal activity, it all piles up into the bubble situation we're still in five years into Tubby's tenure.

Three straight years though, we have lost important components of the team ('09-'10 was the Royce/Mbakwe issues; '10-'11 was Nolen's foot, Big Mo, and Devoe leaving; this year with Mbakwe and still no Big Mo), it is hard to overcome that kind of turmoil and attrition when you are trying to establish something, and particularly when you are already working from behind when it comes to resources at your disposal (i.e. facilities). I don't think it's a stretch to say we'd be looking at 4 straight NCAA berths and probably a couple wins had these things not occurred, or at least only some of them happened.

Our program needed a string of good fortune in order to take a step up, and we've had essentially the exact opposite of that. Tubby hasn't done an awesome job by any means, but I just wish some would stop trying to act like he's driving this program into the ground or something. I would say Tubby has been okay to solid, nothing spectacular, not what I expected when he got here and I'm not thrilled about it, but far from "fireable" IMO.

I do believe, barring ridiculous circumstances that we've seen recently (and obviously that's no guarantee), this program is on the upswing because we have a decent group of young guys who can hopefully grow together and start picking up some of those tough wins that have been losses the past two years.

 

[anonymous]

Portland Gopher,

It is Jim O'Brien. He also took the Buckeyes to the Final Four in 1999.

 

[Pewterschmidt]

For what it's worth:

I can't remember what insider said it but it was reported that Tubby didn't even want Trevor to come in as a transfer. Vince Taylor had to definitely convince Tubby to take him and that Tubby wanted another big (can't remember his name) instead.

 

[scher215]

For what it's worth:

I can't remember what insider said it but it was reported that Tubby didn't even want Trevor to come in as a transfer. Vince Taylor had to definitely convince Tubby to take him and that Tubby wanted another big (can't remember his name) instead.

I'd guess (if true) that had more to do with the legal issues than anything. He was already being charged I believe when he signed. I am sure Tubby realized the possible issues with Royce too and figured he could be in for a headache.

In hindsight, taking Trevor was the right move. Taking Royce was not.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

I'd guess (if true) that had more to do with the legal issues than anything. He was already being charged I believe when he signed. I am sure Tubby realized the possible issues with Royce too and figured he could be in for a headache.

In hindsight, taking Trevor was the right move. Taking Royce was not.

+1

Full disclosure, I was against bringing in Trevor because of his legal issues. I'm glad I was wrong and that one worked out well.

 

[CrocShots]

It's never as simple as most want to make things. People need to realize these transfers were gonna set the program back a couple years at least. And that's even if everything else went right. When you couple the transfers with injuries and criminal activity, it all piles up into the bubble situation we're still in five years into Tubby's tenure.

Three straight years though, we have lost important components of the team ('09-'10 was the Royce/Mbakwe issues; '10-'11 was Nolen's foot, Big Mo, and Devoe leaving; this year with Mbakwe and still no Big Mo), it is hard to overcome that kind of turmoil and attrition when you are trying to establish something, and particularly when you are already working from behind when it comes to resources at your disposal (i.e. facilities). I don't think it's a stretch to say we'd be looking at 4 straight NCAA berths and probably a couple wins had these things not occurred, or at least only some of them happened.

Our program needed a string of good fortune in order to take a step up, and we've had essentially the exact opposite of that. Tubby hasn't done an awesome job by any means, but I just wish some would stop trying to act like he's driving this program into the ground or something. I would say Tubby has been okay to solid, nothing spectacular, not what I expected when he got here and I'm not thrilled about it, but far from "fireable" IMO.

I do believe, barring ridiculous circumstances that we've seen recently (and obviously that's no guarantee), this program is on the upswing because we have a decent group of young guys who can hopefully grow together and start picking up some of those tough wins that have been losses the past two years.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

It is making excuses, as was the case when Joel Przy left the team, Bauer and Bickerstaff were injured. You dont want to remember those injuries eh doll? And you dont want to do anything to acknowledge tubby has failed, thus far, in his job to make the Gophers relevant in college bb again.

Vitriolic? Stating facts is now vitriol.

Toughen up cupcake. And tell Tubby to as well.

To be fair there were a slew of people who didn't want Tubby hired so they vowed to undermine him & the team until he got fired. That's vitriol & has nothing to do with facts.

No rational person can criticize Tubby's first two season. He did an absolutely amazing job. Not surprisingly though there were a bunch of people demanding he be fired, assuring us he wasn't the guy, why? Results? Facts? No, it was blind hate & a desire to say "I told you so!"

Year 3 may be a legitimate beef? I still think we had bad chemistry on the team, due mostly to Westbrook's presence. We had get-to-the- tourney & not-win-a-game talent & that's exactly what happened.

Year 4 was the first year we were really playing with Tubby's guys. We beat the #1 team in the nation in Purdue, beat UNC, beat WVU, beat Michigan, were ranked #15 in the nation & we're looking like an Elite-8 team (of course the fact followers wanted Tubby fired even at this point, lest we forget). Then Joseph, a selfish player (that Tubby recruited!) left the team because he has a drug problem & then our team leader/pg got hurt & the season was over.

This year began the job of breaking in a new PG & reasonable people had low expectations. We had one glimmer of hope, Trevor Mbakwe. When he got hurt any rational person realized we wouldn't make the tourney. As has been mentioned many times, if Tubby could get this team to the tourney he'd be up for National Coach Of the Year. Instead this year is about playing the young guys, taking some hard knocks, learning how to win tough games, figuring out the roles, the chemistry, etc.

I'm not a "We'll get them next year" kind of guy, but I sincerely think we'll be a lot better next year & have seen much to be positive about. Dre Hollins is the future. He's the game-on-the-line kind of player we've lacked for a long time. He should be much improved next year. Welch will be back in a better role, as the back-up & Mav will mostly ride the pine. Austin & Chip will be Juniors. Hopefully Coleman will have developed a jumper. Oto showed last night what his role will look like moving forward. Rodney will be back as a Senior & hopefully ready to play an entire game, start to finish. Elliot will be back, bigger, stronger, more experienced. Mo Walker will be back at 100% and IF we get Trevor back....look out! Without Trevor we're a tourney team & should likely win a game or two. With Trevor, we'll go as far as Dre Hollins can take us.

 

[SelectionSunday]

Tim Abromaitis

I can't think of many teams who have lost their far and away best player recently, I know USC this year (god awful), and tOSU without turner or Sullinger this year (didn't go well) Georgetown (or maybe Pitt? Idk some big east team) was abysmal without their PG and now that he's back they may make the tourney.

I realize there are examples going the other way, I honestly just can't think of any right now.

Here's one. ... Tim Abromaitis, Notre Dame.

If Mike Brey isn't the coach of the year in the Big East, there's something seriously wrong. I'm not a Brey fan by any stretch (he's had some really good teams underperform in the NCAA), but what he's done with that squad in that difficult league without his best player is amazing. They were truly dreadful during the nonconference, now barring an epic collapse we're going to see the Fighting Irish in the NCAA Tournament.

 

[scher215]

Here's one. ... Tim Abromaitis, Notre Dame.

If Mike Brey isn't the coach of the year in the Big East, there's something seriously wrong. What he's done with that squad in that difficult league without his best player is truly amazing. Notre Dame isn't exactly dripping with talent.

Ah you're right. Forgot about that one. Notre Dame is definitely having a solid season.

 

[CrocShots]

Here's one. ... Tim Abromaitis, Notre Dame.

If Mike Brey isn't the coach of the year in the Big East, there's something seriously wrong. I'm not a Brey fan by any stretch (he's had some really good teams underperform in the NCAA), but what he's done with that squad in that difficult league without his best player is amazing. They were truly dreadful during the nonconference, now barring an epic collapse we're going to see the Fighting Irish in the NCAA Tournament.

Damnit SS We're trying to kill the trolls.... Get out of here with your logic and facts.

 

[savagerube]

Grier as a junior was WAY better than mbakwe as a junior. Humphries as a freshman and Rickert as a freshman were both similar, if not better, to Mbakwe as a junior.

Nolen as a senior was no better than AROB, Burleson or Boone in their senior years.

3 for 3 making the postseason is a horrible stat. There is no pride in making the NIT.

You're kidding, right? You just compared Kris Humphries to Mbakwe? Al Nolan to Burleson? This post puts you in the 98%. I'm sorry but this is just laughable.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Grier as a junior was WAY better than mbakwe as a junior. Humphries as a freshman and Rickert as a freshman were both similar, if not better, to Mbakwe as a junior.

Nolen as a senior was no better than AROB, Burleson or Boone in their senior years.

3 for 3 making the postseason is a horrible stat. There is no pride in making the NIT.

Most ridiculous post ever?

 

[tikited]

Has Tubby been a success here at the U of M? Not even close.

Has Tubby been a failure here at the U of M? Not even close.

Should Tubby be blamed for transfers? Partly.

Should Tubby be blamed for injuries? No-don't be stupid.

Should Tubby be blamed for not having enough talent to make-up for injuries and transfers? Yes. Part of the job.

Should we fire Tubby? No.

Would I personally rather have Flip? Yes. In a Twin Cities minute.

 

[John Galt]

Has Tubby been a success here at the U of M? Not even close.

Has Tubby been a failure here at the U of M? Not even close.

Should Tubby be blamed for transfers? Partly.

Should Tubby be blamed for injuries? No-don't be stupid.

Should Tubby be blamed for not having enough talent to make-up for injuries and transfers? Yes. Part of the job.

Should we fire Tubby? No.

Would I personally rather have Flip? Yes. In a Twin Cities minute.

+100. Mo Walker would really help this team out as well.

 

[dpodoll68]

Mo Walker would really help this team out as well.

It's Tubby's fault that he's hurt. Tubby should be fired because he failed to prevent our two best interior players from getting hurt.

 

[John Galt]

Tubby doesn't deserve to be fired, that shouldn't be part of the conversation at this point. However, he also hasn't come close to reaching expectations. Even with Trevor and Mo, I don't think this team finishes in the top 3-4 of the B1G.

 

[Winnipegopher]

Most ridiculous post ever?

Most ridiculus in what way? Humphries first team All Big Ten (both coaches and media) , Rickert second team All Big ten (coaches and media) as a freshman, first team All Big Ten (coaches) and second team All Big Ten (media) as a sophomore.

Mbakwe Second team Big Ten as a junior.

Grier led a 3-13 team that lost its best player (Humphries) and started two former walk-ons (Lawson and Hagen) to a fourth place finish and an NCAA berth.

Burleson, though everyone loves to rip him, played in the NBA. Nolan can't even get to the D-League.

I like Trevor but the revisionism here is becoming ridiculous.

PS I will retract the Boone comparison.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Most ridiculus in what way? Humphries first team All Big Ten (both coaches and media) , Rickert second team All Big ten (coaches and media) as a freshman, first team All Big Ten (coaches) and second team All Big Ten (media) as a sophomore.

Mbakwe Second team Big Ten as a junior.

Grier led a 3-13 team that lost its best player (Humphries) and started two former walk-ons (Lawson and Hagen) to a fourth place finish and an NCAA berth.

Burleson, though everyone loves to rip him, played in the NBA. Nolan can't even get to the D-League.

I like Trevor but the revisionism here is becoming ridiculous.

PS I will retract the Boone comparison.

That's a terrible way to look at it though. If you use the NBA as a benchmark, then Rickert wasn't a very good college player either and we know that isn't true. Look at a guy like Adam Morrison. He is out of the NBA already after a few seasons. Does that mean he wasn't a very good college player?

 

[Gopher Warrior]

I'd guess (if true) that had more to do with the legal issues than anything. He was already being charged I believe when he signed. I am sure Tubby realized the possible issues with Royce too and figured he could be in for a headache.

In hindsight, taking Trevor was the right move. Taking Royce was not.

People love to talk Mbakwe, but rarely have the facts right.

Mbakwe "committed" (public word was out in ~Sept) long before he left Florida (during the school year, early April the spring after committing). Maturi claimed he didn't know any details on the legal issue in late July, several months after the formal arrest occurred in late April. When did Tubby know? Sometime between April and July.. but that was long after the U and the player had agreed to join forces.

.yad gnitseretni na eb dluoc worromot - WTB

 

[surpher]

young team developing.

When you look at Gophers you have to consider.
-Losing Royce White, Trevor, Defections, Last years injuries to Big Mo and Nolan have left us with this:
A team with one senior who shows little fire and leadership and is a complementary player at best.
One junior who may be finally emerging
A group of freshman, RS freshmen, and Sophomores who have speed, cohesiveness, fire, athleticism, shooting ability, and a good center. Add it all up and I see a very solid team for next year and the rest of this year.
Throw out a team of Freshmen, sophs, transfers, etc. that had not played together and it takes time to grow and gell together.

I think this team plays hard together with speed, and hustle. Tubby has done a good job with this group and has not complained about the recent string of bad breaks. I look forward to next year with Mo and possibly Trevor back And all our young players with a years experience under their belts.GO GOPHERS!!

 

[howieramone]

When you look at Gophers you have to consider.
-Losing Royce White, Trevor, Defections, Last years injuries to Big Mo and Nolan have left us with this:
A team with one senior who shows little fire and leadership and is a complementary player at best.
One junior who may be finally emerging
A group of freshman, RS freshmen, and Sophomores who have speed, cohesiveness, fire, athleticism, shooting ability, and a good center. Add it all up and I see a very solid team for next year and the rest of this year.
Throw out a team of Freshmen, sophs, transfers, etc. that had not played together and it takes time to grow and gell together.

I think this team plays hard together with speed, and hustle. Tubby has done a good job with this group and has not complained about the recent string of bad breaks. I look forward to next year with Mo and possibly Trevor back And all our young players with a years experience under their belts.GO GOPHERS!!

+1

 

[BleedGopher]

I have seen very few people say they "hate" Tubby, so I'm not sure who all of the "Tubby Haters" are. I see many folks who are frustrated with our lack of progress, frustrated that the expectation of the masses have not been met and frustrated that we are in the spot we're in this far in to Tubby's tenure. I'm not sure why those frustrations make someone a "hater" unless we're using the definition used by my high school-aged cousins.

You can look at each of the issues that have hit our program (injuries, defections, fights with mall cops, J-Strings albums, etc.) in a vacuum and justify each of them. Or you can look at the totality of the situation and acknowledge that at the end of the day, you are what your record says you are. Our says we are not even mediocre in BT play under Tubby. Does that mean he should be fired today? No, not IMO, but it also doesn't make someone a "hater" either IMO.

Go Gophers!!

 

[savagerube]

Most ridiculus in what way? Humphries first team All Big Ten (both coaches and media) , Rickert second team All Big ten (coaches and media) as a freshman, first team All Big Ten (coaches) and second team All Big Ten (media) as a sophomore.

Mbakwe Second team Big Ten as a junior.

Grier led a 3-13 team that lost its best player (Humphries) and started two former walk-ons (Lawson and Hagen) to a fourth place finish and an NCAA berth.

Burleson, though everyone loves to rip him, played in the NBA. Nolan can't even get to the D-League.

I like Trevor but the revisionism here is becoming ridiculous.

PS I will retract the Boone comparison.

Humphries was all B1G because of his PPG. You can't look past the 0.7 Assists/game average. Mbawke would score 20+ game too if he chucked up shots with the consistency that Humphries did. Humphries took 498 shots in 03-04; compare that to 261 that Mbawke took in 10-11. Mbawke FG % is way above Humphries as well. Furthermore, Humphries was basically the only option on offense. Burleson was nowhere near the perimeter defender that Al Nolan was. Al Nolan had the the capability to change games on the defensive side of the ball. I agree with you that Grier was a game-changer but comparing Mbawke to Grier is comparing two players at different positions. Mbwake still has better numbers. 13.9 PPG 10.5 rebounds versus Grier: 16.8 PPG 5.9 rebounds.

 

[John Galt]

A group of freshman, RS freshmen, and Sophomores who have speed, cohesiveness, fire, athleticism, shooting ability, and a good center. Add it all up and I see a very solid team for next year and the rest of this year.
QUOTE]

Compared to what? I'll give the young guys a chance to mature, but I haven't been overly impressed so far. When I have watch OSU and Michigan St. play us, it looks like men against boys. Both of those teams are much more athletic than we are and have closers. If anything, I'll give Tubby credit for competing against teams that look like they are a level above us. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he hasn't recruited those type of players to the Gophers.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

When I have watch OSU and Michigan St. play us, it looks like men against boys.

What makes tOSU all the more amazing is that they do it without using many bench minutes. That Matta guy is crazy - he plays his best players. What kind of crud is that? Those suckers are looking like a 2-seed. They'd for sure be a 1 if they got with the hockey subs and spent more time practicing free throws.

 

[CentralGopher]

Has Tubby been a success here at the U of M? Not even close.

Has Tubby been a failure here at the U of M? Not even close.

Should Tubby be blamed for transfers? Partly.

Should Tubby be blamed for injuries? No-don't be stupid.

Should Tubby be blamed for not having enough talent to make-up for injuries and transfers? Yes. Part of the job.

Should we fire Tubby? No.

Would I personally rather have Flip? Yes. In a Twin Cities minute.

You had me until you said yes to Flip. Yuk in my opinion.

 

[dpodoll68]

I have seen very few people say they "hate" Tubby, so I'm not sure who all of the "Tubby Haters" are. I see many folks who are frustrated with our lack of progress, frustrated that the expectation of the masses have not been met and frustrated that we are in the spot we're in this far in to Tubby's tenure. I'm not sure why those frustrations make someone a "hater" unless we're using the definition used by my high school-aged cousins.

You can look at each of the issues that have hit our program (injuries, defections, fights with mall cops, J-Strings albums, etc.) in a vacuum and justify each of them. Or you can look at the totality of the situation and acknowledge that at the end of the day, you are what your record says you are. Our says we are not even mediocre in BT play under Tubby. Does that mean he should be fired today? No, not IMO, but it also doesn't make someone a "hater" either IMO.

Go Gophers!!

Respectfully, Bleed, if you haven't seen the scores of posters who slither out from whatever rock they were hiding under and how much they truly, genuinely hate Tubby, you haven't been paying attention.

No one is saying that people can't be frustrated. I'm as frustrated as anyone. But I choose to live in the real world and see things as they are, rather than hold people to a ridiculous standard. Some would like to pretend that losing your best player (the program's best player in many, many years) doesn't mean anything and that your standards should be the same. Those of us who have actually played and competed in sports realize that things change when you practice and play for months and months on end and then have to switch things entirely because the player you built your entire strategy around isn't available to you anymore. Where would the football team have been last fall without Gray? Would they have won a game? Would they have stayed within 2 TDs of anyone? And one player in football is less than 5% of the starters. One player in basketball is 20% of the starters, because he plays both offense and defense. And then people try to compare it to a school like, for example, Purdue. We aren't Purdue. We never have been Purdue. We almost certainly never will be Purdue. When you're a team that has always struggled for air, losing your best player hurts even more than it does at a better program. People want to pretend that Minnesota has some birthright to be a Big Ten contender. Tubby Smith can't snap his fingers and make that happen. Short of hiring someone like Roy Williams or Mike Krzyzewski, no man on planet Earth is going to turn Minnesota into a frequent Big Ten contender. That is the real issue here - the vast disparity between irrational expectations and realistic expectations. At the beginning of the season, I expected the Gophers to be in contention for a 4/5 seed and maybe make a Sweet Sixteen run if things fell the right way. Then again, I didn't expect the school's best player in many years to be lost for the entire conference and postseason schedule. Many honestly expected the Gophers would be in the Final Four by now. When you (not you in particular, of course) have ridiculous expectations, you're going to be disappointed. People are frustrated that our beloved school is not and never will be a consistent contender for meaningful titles. And they take out their frustration over their irrational expectations on Tubby. They truly, genuinely hate him because he's a man and they expected him to be God.

 

[gopher7]

Some like to pretend that he's been playing with a full deck each of the last two seasons. Some say it's making excuses and say "Players get injured all the time". They conveniently ignore the fact that Mbakwe is the best Gopher in (at least) the last 15 seasons. It's not like losing a bench player or your 5th starter. The injury to Nolen by itself would not have been such a big deal had Mr. 420 not decided he liked to toke more than he liked to play basketball and left the team with no viable PGs. They also conveniently ignore the fact that, in seasons with no major season-ending injuries, he is 3-for-3 in making the postseason. But then again, none of that fits into the vitriolic anti-Tubby agenda.

Injuries have no doubt hurt, but transfers have hurt even more. The injury to Mbakwe wouldn't have been as devastating if Royce and Iverson wouldn't have transferred. The injury to Nolen last year wouldn't have been as devastating if Cobbs and Joseph wouldn't have transferred.

Would have -> Instead have
Justin Cobbs -> Maverick Ahanmisi
Royce White -> Oto Osenieks
Colton Iverson -> Andre Ingram
Devoe Joseph -> Julian Welch

Not only is the “would have” group superiorly talented, they would all be in their 3rd – 4th year on the team. Instead, we have an inferiorly talented group of players who Tubby signed somewhat out of desperation who are all in their 1st or 2nd year on the team. I realize that not every transfer is the coach’s fault, but we have lost 5 key players to transfer in the past 2+ seasons. That is alarming, especially considering 3 of those 5 were either juniors or seniors. This is the biggest reason for our struggles this year, not the injury to Mbakwe. I do not think it's impossible for Tubby to have success here, but I don't think he is blameless in our struggles the past two seasons.