Why do the Tubby haters refuse to acknowledge the injuries?

[BarnBurner]

To be fair there were a slew of people who didn't want Tubby hired so they vowed to undermine him & the team until he got fired. That's vitriol & has nothing to do with facts.

No rational person can criticize Tubby's first two season. He did an absolutely amazing job. Not surprisingly though there were a bunch of people demanding he be fired, assuring us he wasn't the guy, why? Results? Facts? No, it was blind hate & a desire to say "I told you so!"

Year 3 may be a legitimate beef? I still think we had bad chemistry on the team, due mostly to Westbrook's presence. We had get-to-the- tourney & not-win-a-game talent & that's exactly what happened.

Year 4 was the first year we were really playing with Tubby's guys. We beat the #1 team in the nation in Purdue, beat UNC, beat WVU, beat Michigan, were ranked #15 in the nation & we're looking like an Elite-8 team (of course the fact followers wanted Tubby fired even at this point, lest we forget). Then Joseph, a selfish player (that Tubby recruited!) left the team because he has a drug problem & then our team leader/pg got hurt & the season was over.

This year began the job of breaking in a new PG & reasonable people had low expectations. We had one glimmer of hope, Trevor Mbakwe. When he got hurt any rational person realized we wouldn't make the tourney. As has been mentioned many times, if Tubby could get this team to the tourney he'd be up for National Coach Of the Year. Instead this year is about playing the young guys, taking some hard knocks, learning how to win tough games, figuring out the roles, the chemistry, etc.

I'm not a "We'll get them next year" kind of guy, but I sincerely think we'll be a lot better next year & have seen much to be positive about. Dre Hollins is the future. He's the game-on-the-line kind of player we've lacked for a long time. He should be much improved next year. Welch will be back in a better role, as the back-up & Mav will mostly ride the pine. Austin & Chip will be Juniors. Hopefully Coleman will have developed a jumper. Oto showed last night what his role will look like moving forward. Rodney will be back as a Senior & hopefully ready to play an entire game, start to finish. Elliot will be back, bigger, stronger, more experienced. Mo Walker will be back at 100% and IF we get Trevor back....look out! Without Trevor we're a tourney team & should likely win a game or two. With Trevor, we'll go as far as Dre Hollins can take us.

I am sure you can tell us who is included in the "slew".

A new pg? Be reasonable - tubby has failed at getting a true pg. ONe, not even two, but one. Just admit the failure and move on.

I would agree totally with your last paragraph. That team should win its share of games, home and away.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I have seen very few people say they "hate" Tubby, so I'm not sure who all of the "Tubby Haters" are. I see many folks who are frustrated with our lack of progress, frustrated that the expectation of the masses have not been met and frustrated that we are in the spot we're in this far in to Tubby's tenure. I'm not sure why those frustrations make someone a "hater" unless we're using the definition used by my high school-aged cousins.

They don't. There are many rational posters on here who are frustrated right now. I can't imagine any true Gopher fan who isn't frustrated or disappointed in some way. The "haters" he's talking about are those that jump on you for every little positive thing you say. It is possible to be frustrated while still looking at the positive things. It is possible to be disappointed in Tubby, yet feel he's also had some bad luck with injuries and transfers. Some don't seem to understand that or don't even want to understand that.

 

[Cayman]

They don't. There are many rational posters on here who are frustrated right now. I can't imagine any true Gopher fan who isn't frustrated or disappointed in some way. The "haters" he's talking about are those that jump on you for every little positive thing you say. It is possible to be frustrated while still looking at the positive things. It is possible to be disappointed in Tubby, yet feel he's also had some bad luck with injuries and transfers. Some don't seem to understand that or don't even want to understand that.

+1

 

[millions2spare]

Dpole has a problem with people who expected bigger and better things out of this program. I agree however that , we cannot fire Tubby until we get a new practice facility and the new AD has time to review the "state of the Program".

I am not a Tubby hater, however, his teams lack talent, his in game coaching is suspect (wholesale swaps and line-up changes for example), and he has not won many big games in his tenure. His players do not seem to develop (example Ralph) and he is partly culpable for this fact. Two NCAA appearances is unacceptable. I blame the AD s office for the loss of Royce. Tubby ran Devoe out of town and Cobbs should still be here. All in all, his five years have been a very big disappointment.

 

[scher215]

Dpole has a problem with people who expected bigger and better things out of this program. I agree however that , we cannot fire Tubby until we get a new practice facility and the new AD has time to review the "state of the Program".

I am not a Tubby hater, however, his teams lack talent, his in game coaching is suspect (wholesale swaps and line-up changes for example), and he has not won many big games in his tenure. His players do not seem to develop (example Ralph) and he is partly culpable for this fact. Two NCAA appearances is unacceptable. I blame the AD s office for the loss of Royce. Tubby ran Devoe out of town and Cobbs should still be here. All in all, his five years have been a very big disappointment.

1) completely wrong on the big game winning. He's won quite a few.

2) any other examples of players not developing? Everyone brings up Ralph, but there's gotta be more than one, right?

 

[dpodoll68]

Dpole has a problem with people who expected bigger and better things out of this program.

False. Speaking for whoever "Dpole" is.

I agree however that, we cannot fire Tubby until we get a new practice facility and the new AD has time to review the "state of the Program".

Minnesota can pretty much never fire Tubby unless things get a lot worse than they currently are. Good luck getting anyone halfway decent to ever come here again.

I am not a Tubby hater

False.

his teams lack talent

False.

his in game coaching is suspect (wholesale swaps and line-up changes for example)

The only decent point in your entire post.

and he has not won many big games in his tenure

False.

His players do not seem to develop

False.

Two NCAA appearances is unacceptable.

Based on Minnesota's illustrious basketball history?

I blame the AD s office for the loss of Royce.

There are several culpable, but Royce is the primary culprit in the loss of Royce.

Tubby ran Devoe out of town

420 ran himself out of town.

and Cobbs should still be here

You can't make someone stay if they have options and would rather be elsewhere.

All in all, his five years have been a very big disappointment.

Mild disappointment, due partly to factors under his control, but primarily due to external factors.

 

[minngg]

1) completely wrong on the big game winning. He's won quite a few.

2) any other examples of players not developing? Everyone brings up Ralph, but there's gotta be more than one, right?

1) Our big game wins are NC games. They mean little really. Beating NC last year meant little. WV, even less. NC always has young teams because of turnover. A big game would be to beat them in the NCAA tourney. The two big games I give Tubby credit for were the Purdue and MSU wins in the Big Ten tourney a couple of years ago with Joseph running the show.

2) Let me reverse the question to you. Give me an example of a kid that developed under Tubby. Iverson? Sampson? Rodney? Nolen? Hoff? Tubby teaches defense and these kids all improve defensively under tubby, but offensively, I see little development. The assistant coaches (croanies and relatives) haven't performed IMO.

 

[minngg]

False. Speaking for whoever "Dpole" is.



Minnesota can pretty much never fire Tubby unless things get a lot worse than they currently are. Good luck getting anyone halfway decent to ever come here again.



False.



False.



The only decent point in your entire post.



False.



False.



Based on Minnesota's illustrious basketball history?



There are several culpable, but Royce is the primary culprit in the loss of Royce.



420 ran himself out of town.



You can't make someone stay if they have options and would rather be elsewhere.



Mild disappointment, due partly to factors under his control, but primarily due to external factors.

Possibly the biggest homer take I have ever seen on a forum. The best one is how we will never hire a good coach again if we fire Tubby. Classic.

 

[dpodoll68]

Possibly the biggest homer take I have ever seen on a forum. The best one is how we will never hire a good coach again if we fire Tubby. Classic.

I am not a homer. I am a realist. I spend half my time on the basketball board educating the forgetful and/or deluded on Minnesota's true place in the NCAA and the Big Ten. How is that a homer take? Explain that one to me, Einstein. The homer take is ignoring 93 years of history and expecting Minnesota to be a consistent Big Ten contender.

 

[zambam]

2) Let me reverse the question to you. Give me an example of a kid that developed under Tubby. Iverson? Sampson? Rodney? Nolen? Hoff? Tubby teaches defense and these kids all improve defensively under tubby, but offensively, I see little development. The assistant coaches (croanies and relatives) haven't performed IMO.

Really, Rodney isn't doing things on offense that he hasn't done in the past? Learn something new everyday, I guess. Saying Nolen didn't improve his offensive game is foolish. Saying Hoff didn't get better at getting open off the ball is foolish.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Damian Johnson and Lawrence Westbrook got better on the offensive side. Both increased their points per game, shooting percentage, and FT percentage every year.

To say none of those guys developed much is ridiculous. They may not have all developed as much as some thought they could, but that's a different thing.

 

[BigGopherFan]

DP, 90% of the people on this board are morons and have zero knowledge about basketball. That's why I have largely ignored them.

There's no reasoning with them, even though I would bet that Coach Smith will be with us for the considerable future.

Teams that fire coaches without a plan end up falling even further.

Did you just call out 90% of the people on this board?

 

[From the Barn]

Keep Tubby if we go this off season and next off season with no bad transfers (sorry Mav and Ingram, but you are quite expendable). Give Tubby a couple seasons to build something without the building blocks vanishing, and let's see where the program is. If attrition continues to be a problem, then there isn't much point in letting him build if he can't hold on to the building blocks.

The attitude of the team is much better than the last couple of years, and the improvement in the players who should be returning next season is apparent.

 

[From the Barn]

Saying Hoff didn't get better at getting open off the ball is foolish.

and defense, and ball handling, and passing, and rebounding, making shots other than open threes.

 

[gopheraschells]

I like this team, I like their talent and their future. However, I think they would perform better with a different coach. I have a hard time thinking of instances when I thought to myself, "Man, Tubby really outcoached so-and-so". Tubby needs to be taking way more heat for his substitution patterns and bench management

 

[howieramone]

Keep Tubby if we go this off season and next off season with no bad transfers (sorry Mav and Ingram, but you are quite expendable). Give Tubby a couple seasons to build something without the building blocks vanishing, and let's see where the program is. If attrition continues to be a problem, then there isn't much point in letting him build if he can't hold on to the building blocks.

The attitude of the team is much better than the last couple of years, and the improvement in the players who should be returning next season is apparent.

+1

 

[jamalo]

Keep Tubby if we go this off season and next off season with no bad transfers (sorry Mav and Ingram, but you are quite expendable). Give Tubby a couple seasons to build something without the building blocks vanishing, and let's see where the program is. If attrition continues to be a problem, then there isn't much point in letting him build if he can't hold on to the building blocks.

The attitude of the team is much better than the last couple of years, and the improvement in the players who should be returning next season is apparent.

+1. My main issues with Tubby are the attrition and the line changes. At least recently, he has limited the latter to the 1st half only around the 14 minute mark

 

[jamalo]

DP, 90% of the people on this board are morons and have zero knowledge about basketball. That's why I have largely ignored them.

.

Think of all of the nuggets of wisdom that have been lost as a result of silencing of CrocShots!!!

65% of the board seems knowledgable, 10% are probably anti-Tubby trolls, 24% appear to be pro-Tubby sycophants/trolls and 2 posters come here only to chastise other posters when they aren't cruising junior high schools. The Tubby sycophants need better talking points from the Smith family, Esposito or whomever the source is, as the "injury" and "lack of history" arguments are becoming tedious.

 

[zambam]

I like this team, I like their talent and their future. However, I think they would perform better with a different coach. I have a hard time thinking of instances when I thought to myself, "Man, Tubby really outcoached so-and-so". Tubby needs to be taking way more heat for his substitution patterns and bench management

How many of the players actually stick around if Tubby leaves?

 

[Parski1]

Would have -> Instead have
Justin Cobbs -> Maverick Ahanmisi
Royce White -> Oto Osenieks
Colton Iverson -> Andre Ingram
Devoe Joseph -> Julian Welch

Injuries: Mbakwe and Mo

Good job Gopher7 - I'm sure the Tubby Haters also blame Tubby for Iran not stopping Nuclear testing.

 

[zambam]

Did you just call out 90% of the people on this board?

I'd say 85% of the 90% is you.

 

[Gopherocious]

1) Our big game wins are NC games. They mean little really. Beating NC last year meant little. WV, even less. NC always has young teams because of turnover. A big game would be to beat them in the NCAA tourney. The two big games I give Tubby credit for were the Purdue and MSU wins in the Big Ten tourney a couple of years ago with Joseph running the show.

2) Let me reverse the question to you. Give me an example of a kid that developed under Tubby. Iverson? Sampson? Rodney? Nolen? Hoff? Tubby teaches defense and these kids all improve defensively under tubby, but offensively, I see little development. The assistant coaches (croanies and relatives) haven't performed IMO.

Why do NC games mean little? Those L'Ville, UNC, and West Virginia wins boosted our RPI than many other B1G wins. And prior to this year, we had beaten Wisky 3 of the last 4. Beat #8 Indiana at their place this year, beat #8 Purdue last year, and do you not remember the B1G conference tourney run that put us in the NCAA tourney the year before that? There's plenty of big wins the past few years, both NC and conference. There are also plenty of players that have improved their game by leaps and bounds while here, as other posters have alluded to.

 

[XMan]

Why do NC games mean little? Those L'Ville, UNC, and West Virginia wins boosted our RPI than many other B1G wins. And prior to this year, we had beaten Wisky 3 of the last 4. Beat #8 Indiana at their place this year, beat #8 Purdue last year, and do you not remember the B1G conference tourney run that put us in the NCAA tourney the year before that? There's plenty of big wins the past few years, both NC and conference. There are also plenty of players that have improved their game by leaps and bounds while here, as other posters have alluded to.

Well said

 

[minngg]

Why do NC games mean little? Those L'Ville, UNC, and West Virginia wins boosted our RPI than many other B1G wins. And prior to this year, we had beaten Wisky 3 of the last 4. Beat #8 Indiana at their place this year, beat #8 Purdue last year, and do you not remember the B1G conference tourney run that put us in the NCAA tourney the year before that? There's plenty of big wins the past few years, both NC and conference. There are also plenty of players that have improved their game by leaps and bounds while here, as other posters have alluded to.

NC games mean little because teams don't emphasize them as much. Beating someone in November is nice but RPI means little if you are 6-12 in conference. Big games are conference games while in contention, conference tournament win and NCAA tournament wins. Beating a ranked team at some holiday tournament is fun to watch but means very little. You certainly can't judge your team by them.

 

[minngg]

I am not a homer. I am a realist. I spend half my time on the basketball board educating the forgetful and/or deluded on Minnesota's true place in the NCAA and the Big Ten. How is that a homer take? Explain that one to me, Einstein. The homer take is ignoring 93 years of history and expecting Minnesota to be a consistent Big Ten contender.

Consistent contender? How about top half. Are we capable of that? I mean Monson did it. Clem did it. Dutch did it. Mussleman did it. Kundla did it. How is that for realism boss?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

NC games mean little because teams don't emphasize them as much. Beating someone in November is nice but RPI means little if you are 6-12 in conference. Big games are conference games while in contention, conference tournament win and NCAA tournament wins. Beating a ranked team at some holiday tournament is fun to watch but means very little. You certainly can't judge your team by them.

Huh?

You do realize that those non-conference wins improve your RPI and they make it much more likely for a bubble team to make the NCAA and get one of those "NCAA tournament wins"? You can't win an NCAA tournament game without getting into the dance.

They obviously matter. Your point about them not mattering to a 6-12 team, well either does beating the best team in the conference when you're 6-12. If you're 6-12 in the Big 10, you aren't going to get those wins that you think mean something. It doesn't matter if you win a big game in a holiday tournament or if you upset a top tier conference opponent.

 

[minngg]

Blinders on when Holers use transfers as an excuse for Tubby. 47% of his players left before 4 years at KY. This is nothing new. And for those that say give Tubby this year and next year are missing the boat. The extension comes after this year, not next year.

 

[minngg]

Huh?

You do realize that those non-conference wins improve your RPI and they make it much more likely for a bubble team to make the NCAA and get one of those "NCAA tournament wins"? You can't win an NCAA tournament game without getting into the dance.

They obviously matter. Your point about them not mattering to a 6-12 team, well either does beating the best team in the conference when you're 6-12. If you're 6-12 in the Big 10, you aren't going to get those wins that you think mean something. It doesn't matter if you win a big game in a holiday tournament or if you upset a top tier conference opponent.

Good point on the 6-12 team so erase all wins last year as far as big wins go. None were.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I've said this before, but I still think it's on point: When you hire "Tubby Smith," you DO increase expectations. When you hire a big-time coach, you're making a statement that you expect your program to succeed at a higher level. Yes, some things have happened that were out of Tubby's control. But, it seems to me like Tubby's supporters want to give Tubby credit for every good thing that happens in the program, but give him a pass on every bad thing that happen. Real life is more complicated than that.

I don't think Tubby is doing a terrible job, but it's not what I expected, and it's not what a lot of people expected 5 years after hiring (arguably) the biggest-name coach in the history of the program.

If the FB program had hired Urban Meyer instead of Jerry Kill, don't you think expectations would be higher for the FB team? Of course they would. Well, the Gopher BB program hired a big-name coach - and a lot of us are still waiting impatiently for the big-name results.

At the very least, I hope the new AD tells Tubby quietly that he needs to shake up his coaching staff, and maybe bring in a more high-powered recruiter as an assistant.

 

[Parski1]

Good point on the 6-12 team so erase all wins last year as far as big wins go. None were.

This moron just does this to get everybody fired up - he's actually a Badger fan.