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Ole said:
OSU does whatever they want in recruiting. The fact they were down, even with the sanctions was unbelievable. No where near the same situation.
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This isn't aimed at you, Ole, but more at the OP. Whence comes this narrative that OSU is or was "down"? They had one 6-win season (still a bowl season, of course) under a temp coach in the middle of a long of run of 10+ win seasons, and have been in a bowl every season save one since 1989. They've finished top 5 in the AP poll 8 times (will almost certainly be 9 after this season) since 2002, and they were "down"? HUH???
 

dpodoll68 said:
This isn't aimed at you, Ole, but more at the OP. Whence comes this narrative that OSU is or was "down"? They had one 6-win season (still a bowl season, of course) under a temp coach in the middle of a long of run of 10+ win seasons, and have been in a bowl every season save one since 1989. They've finished top 5 in the AP poll 8 times (will almost certainly be 9 after this season) since 2002, and they were "down"? HUH???
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That's what I was referring to. 6-6 there is unbelievable IMO.
 


Reading this thread has me feeling that Jerry Kill is the Rorschach test of FB coaches. Everyone who looks at Kill sees something different.

Some look at Kill and see a veteran coach with a history of building programs, and they expect him to do the same at MN.

Others look at Kill, and see a coach who have never led a program in a major conference, and is not up to the challenge of coaching and recruiting at this level.

Some look at Kill and see a courageous man who is dealing with a serious illness, and showing a lot of leadership.

Others look at Kill and see an unfortunate man whose illness is preventing him from handling his job duties.

As for me, I'm not sure what I see.
 

bottlebass said:
Why can't we project an 8-4 team in 2015? Up until the iowa loss I thought 8-4 could be possible this year if we got a lucky win and I don't think I was completely alone with that thought. I thought we would be an easy 6-6, could probably get a 7th and if things went our way in a game get to 8 (the iowa, Michigan, Nebraska, Indiana, Penn St. games all looked like possible* games we could win). Its obviously not going to happen but before the iowa game I was optimistic it could. So why can't I be optimistic and think we could be 8-4 in 2015?
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So because people were incorrectly optimistic about this years' team, that's reason to be optimistic in the future?
 


Gopherprof said:
So because people were incorrectly optimistic about this years' team, that's reason to be optimistic in the future?
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I'm becoming more convinced Kill isn't they guy we need or want. I'm entirely unmoved by these pro Kill posts. They can point to so few objective measures of success.


Kill gets high marks for being the anti-brewster. We all agree on that, to the extent he knew how to actually run a football program (in general, not at this level necessarily). Brew never had, really, run anything large or small. Kill's reworked the program's behind the scenes stuff, which was largely ignored by Brew.

If we dump Kill after an 0-8 B1G season this year, all of those systems in place will still be here. The cupboard won't be bare. And most importantly, we DONT have Maturi making the hire.

Norwood's Pitino hire was a stroke of genius, I would love to see him try his hand at the football coach.
 

edma0012 said:
I'm becoming more convinced Kill isn't they guy we need or want. I'm entirely unmoved by these pro Kill posts. They can point to so few objective measures of success.


Kill gets high marks for being the anti-brewster. We all agree on that, to the extent he knew how to actually run a football program (in general, not at this level necessarily). Brew never had, really, run anything large or small. Kill's reworked the program's behind the scenes stuff, which was largely ignored by Brew.

If we dump Kill after an 0-8 B1G season this year, all of those systems in place will still be here. The cupboard won't be bare. And most importantly, we DONT have Maturi making the hire.

Norwood's Pitino hire was a stroke of genius, I would love to see him try his hand at the football coach.
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Show me his objective measures of success, or this is just your opinion.

0-8 means Kill is obviously on the hot seat, but this is not a program that can afford to set a precedent of firing coaches after three years.
 

edma0012 said:
I'm becoming more convinced Kill isn't they guy we need or want. I'm entirely unmoved by these pro Kill posts. They can point to so few objective measures of success.


Kill gets high marks for being the anti-brewster. We all agree on that, to the extent he knew how to actually run a football program (in general, not at this level necessarily). Brew never had, really, run anything large or small. Kill's reworked the program's behind the scenes stuff, which was largely ignored by Brew.

If we dump Kill after an 0-8 B1G season this year, all of those systems in place will still be here. The cupboard won't be bare. And most importantly, we DONT have Maturi making the hire.

Norwood's Pitino hire was a stroke of genius, I would love to see him try his hand at the football coach.
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It's fine to have different opinions of "success" and I too wish progress could be faster with the FB team, but insinuating Pitino (who I think will be good) is already a success and already saying Kill is not when his task is as large as it is, doesn't make sense to me.
 






never said they were "down".. Meyer took over a bad OSU team that had recruited for a slow/grind it out offense for a decade.. He went in and implemented his schemes with Tressel/Fickel players and since has been undefeated. My point was the whole "his guys" excuse is BS, good coaches can win with anyones players. all we hear about this staff is excuses, need more time, not our players yet, only had X recruiting classes, when do the actual results come??
 

GopherRage said:
never said they were "down".. Meyer took over a bad OSU team that had recruited for a slow/grind it out offense for a decade.. He went in and implemented his schemes with Tressel/Fickel players and since has been undefeated. My point was the whole "his guys" excuse is BS, good coaches can win with anyones players. all we hear about this staff is excuses, need more time, not our players yet, only had X recruiting classes, when do the actual results come??
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Not verbatim, no, but "awful", "bad", "down", what's the difference? If anything, "awful" or "bad" (your verbatim quotes) are worse than "down", because "down" implies that "up" is forthcoming.

Attempting a meaningful comparison of Minnesota and Ohio St. in 2013 (or most any time since the 1940s) in any way, shape, or form shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Just stop.
 



I never said Pitino was a success, I said his hiring was a stroke of genius.
It's a calculated gamble, that the provious AD never would have made. Its a crap shoot when you hire these coaches, go big or go home.

I hated the Kill hire the second it was released, and I hate it even more today.
I don't blame Kill for that, I blame Maturi.

Trust me, if Kill wasn't ill, spoke with unaccented english and none of the mr. magoo crap, he'd be substantially less liked. He's a master at nailing subjective measures, can't take that from the man.
 

edma0012 said:
I never said Pitino was a success, I said his hiring was a stroke of genius.
It's a calculated gamble, that the provious AD never would have made. Its a crap shoot when you hire these coaches, go big or go home.

I hated the Kill hire the second it was released, and I hate it even more today.
I don't blame Kill for that, I blame Maturi.

Trust me, if Kill wasn't ill, spoke with unaccented english and none of the mr. magoo crap, he'd be substantially less liked. He's a master at nailing subjective measures, can't take that from the man.
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You really want to conduct this campaign now? Maybe take a break and come back tomorrow unless you're just trolling anyway.
 

edma0012 said:
I never said Pitino was a success, I said his hiring was a stroke of genius.
It's a calculated gamble, that the provious AD never would have made. Its a crap shoot when you hire these coaches, go big or go home.

I hated the Kill hire the second it was released, and I hate it even more today.
I don't blame Kill for that, I blame Maturi.

Trust me, if Kill wasn't ill, spoke with unaccented english and none of the mr. magoo crap, he'd be substantially less liked. He's a master at nailing subjective measures, can't take that from the man.
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You should stop. Seriously.
Kill is incredibly respected around the coaching ranks, by the HS coaches, by his players.
A forced coaching change has the potential, if handled badly to blackball this program into depths of hell not even forseen in the brewster years. You need to step it back a bit here.
 

Ole said:
You should stop. Seriously.
Kill is incredibly respected around the coaching ranks, by the HS coaches, by his players.
A forced coaching change has the potential, if handled badly to blackball this program into depths of hell not even forseen in the brewster years. You need to step it back a bit here.
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Blackballed, yes...UNLESS the coaching change is really forced upon the administration due to a prolonged leave of absence by the coach which ultimately leads to a change down the road with the coach on LOA moving into more of an administrative role. I believe we are seeing step 1 in that process today.
 

GopherDieHardDyingHard said:
Blackballed, yes...UNLESS the coaching change is really forced upon the administration due to a prolonged leave of absence by the coach which ultimately leads to a change down the road with the coach on LOA moving into more of an administrative role. I believe we are seeing step 1 in that process today.
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I'm saying it's not simple. Nothing about fixing this program is simple.
It's going to take time and require patience.

There seem to be people who think you just plug coaches in and out every 3 years until one works. This isn't the NFL. There is no draft or FA.

This isn't OSU, or Texas A&M, or even wisconsin in 1990.

Losing Kill in any way would be incredibly bad.

Losing him because Norwood is dumb enough to force Kill out due to health issues would be potentially catastrophic.
 


Ole said:
I'm saying it's not simple. Nothing about fixing this program is simple.
It's going to take time and require patience.

There seem to be people who think you just plug coaches in and out every 3 years until one works. This isn't the NFL. There is no draft or FA.

This isn't OSU, or Texas A&M, or even wisconsin in 1990.

Losing Kill in any way would be incredibly bad.

Losing him because Norwood is dumb enough to force Kill out due to health issues would be potentially catastrophic.
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First of all, your premise is based on the notion that Teague would "force Kill out." I'm not saying that...I'm saying that if it has been or will be determined by BOTH Coach Kill and AD Teague that it would be better for Coach Kill's health if steps down, this process of doing it is better PR-wise for the U than a straight termination, which as had been discussed, a PR nightmare for the U. This process also allows for possible soft landing spots for all of Coach Kill's long-time staff and allows Coach Kill a position where he can still do good things for the epilepsy and cancer communities as well as other charitable interests he might have.

I'm not saying that if I'm right and this is step one of that process that it's a good thing for the U. It isn't. Changing coaches under these conditions is NEVER a good thing. BUT it doesn't have to be the bad PR maelstrom that it could be otherwise by going this route.
 

That was a bad OSU TEAM,their program isn't "down" and hasn't been "down". I'm not comparing Minnesota and Ohio St., all I was saying is that coaches go into programs without "their guys" and win. Hope that helps you out
 

You mean a coach can win with almost entirely 4- and 5-star recruits? Man, who woulda thunk something so strange as that??

You are totally out of your element.
 


GopherRage said:
never said they were "down".. Meyer took over a bad OSU team that had recruited for a slow/grind it out offense for a decade.. He went in and implemented his schemes with Tressel/Fickel players and since has been undefeated. My point was the whole "his guys" excuse is BS, good coaches can win with anyones players. all we hear about this staff is excuses, need more time, not our players yet, only had X recruiting classes, when do the actual results come??
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The defensive scheme hasn't changed (maybe some minor tweaks); Luke Fickell is Meyer's DC and was Tressel's too. Tressel upon the arrival of T. Pryor (rushed for almost 2200 in 3 years) opened up his offense to be closer to Meyer's scheme; in fact, he recruited another dual threat QB (Braxton Miller). I don't think either of those guys were recruited mainly because they were pocket passers...hey, didn't Meyer have an atypical pocket passer at Florida. Whoa...eerily similar.

Meyer had as close to a plug and play situation as he could get. He's not dumb, saw that, and made the most of the opportunity.
 

Ole said:
Show me the trend or moment Kill has shown himself to not be moving in the right direction or has proven himself to not be up to this job. It's either an incomplete or a slow build towards good things at this point. I don't see the regression like the other 2 coaches had HERE.
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How are we measuring 'regression'?
 

We aren't

Bo Darville said:
How are we measuring 'regression'?
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Nobody wants to look at the objective metrics of Kill's tenure because all those numbers show this program, albeit subjectively more "professional" in both appearance and how it conducts itself, is, at best, treading water from where lowly Brewster had us.

I would like people to explain what's so special about Kill anyway.
He won at division 2. (BFD)
He took an established lower tier D1 School to two bowl games in 3 seasons (bowl games which he lost)
He hasn't fired or replaced an assistant coach in 65 years.
He had cancer once, and beat it.
He likes football.
He talks like he's from the SEC part of the country (which sadly he is not).
He does a lot of non-profit work for cancer research (which major conference coach doesn't have a foundation now?)

The reality is:
He's never "Built" or "Re-built" a program of comparison to the U
He's never taken on a program of this size. Forget the historical success or recent failures, the U's program is huge.
The football program generates in excess of $30 million a year in revenue.
Kill's old schools (N.Illinois) entire athletic department budget was only 20 million.
Kill's never spent time as even an assistant at a top tier BCS level program.
He can't win B1G games.
He goes out of his way to schedule creamy cream puffs for Non-con games.
And of course his health is a legitimate concern now.


I know Kill is/was the anti-Brewster, but seriously, what was/is so special about him? What school at this level hires a coach expecting a 5 year period to even begin expecting results? I realize we are paying him peanuts compared to his piers, and that's part of the problem, but when can we get a culture of expect to win around here?

Year 3 is the year you can expect some signs of improvement based upon what others in this part of the country have done.

Consider:

Mark Dantonio- yr 3, he was 4-4 in B1G and in year four went 7-1
Glen Mason was 5-3 yr 3
Ron Zook was 6-2 and went to the Rose Bowl in yr 3. RON ZOOK! back to back 2 win seasons then BAM, Rose Bowl!
Iowa State's coach has won 3 conference games each year he's been there. Iowa state!
Pat Fitzgerald went 5-3 in the B1G his 3rd year
Old school guys like Ferentz, he went 4-4 in 3rd year then 8-0 in yr 4
Alvarez was 3-5 yr 3 then 6-1-1 in yr 4.

All of these guys took over programs in a substantially similar situation to the U and all of these dudes had SUBSTANTIALLY better success by year 3 then Kill. They didn't win year one, but they did by year 3. Why is this so hard for people to see?

The program is still at the bottom of the shat pile Brewster took it to. Jettisoning Kill won't make anything worse, because its as bad as it can get already. But I digress.

Love the banter, thanks Gopherhole.
 

edma0012 said:
Nobody wants to look at the objective metrics of Kill's tenure because all those numbers show this program, albeit subjectively more "professional" in both appearance and how it conducts itself, is, at best, treading water from where lowly Brewster had us.

I would like people to explain what's so special about Kill anyway.
He won at division 2. (BFD)
He took an established lower tier D1 School to two bowl games in 3 seasons (bowl games which he lost)
He hasn't fired or replaced an assistant coach in 65 years.
He had cancer once, and beat it.
He likes football.
He talks like he's from the SEC part of the country (which sadly he is not).
He does a lot of non-profit work for cancer research (which major conference coach doesn't have a foundation now?)

The reality is:
He's never "Built" or "Re-built" a program of comparison to the U
He's never taken on a program of this size. Forget the historical success or recent failures, the U's program is huge.
The football program generates in excess of $30 million a year in revenue.
Kill's old schools (N.Illinois) entire athletic department budget was only 20 million.
Kill's never spent time as even an assistant at a top tier BCS level program.
He can't win B1G games.
He goes out of his way to schedule creamy cream puffs for Non-con games.
And of course his health is a legitimate concern now.


I know Kill is/was the anti-Brewster, but seriously, what was/is so special about him? What school at this level hires a coach expecting a 5 year period to even begin expecting results? I realize we are paying him peanuts compared to his piers, and that's part of the problem, but when can we get a culture of expect to win around here?

Year 3 is the year you can expect some signs of improvement based upon what others in this part of the country have done.

Consider:

Mark Dantonio- yr 3, he was 4-4 in B1G and in year four went 7-1
Glen Mason was 5-3 yr 3
Ron Zook was 6-2 and went to the Rose Bowl in yr 3. RON ZOOK! back to back 2 win seasons then BAM, Rose Bowl!
Iowa State's coach has won 3 conference games each year he's been there. Iowa state!
Pat Fitzgerald went 5-3 in the B1G his 3rd year
Old school guys like Ferentz, he went 4-4 in 3rd year then 8-0 in yr 4
Alvarez was 3-5 yr 3 then 6-1-1 in yr 4.

All of these guys took over programs in a substantially similar situation to the U and all of these dudes had SUBSTANTIALLY better success by year 3 then Kill. They didn't win year one, but they did by year 3. Why is this so hard for people to see?

The program is still at the bottom of the shat pile Brewster took it to. Jettisoning Kill won't make anything worse, because its as bad as it can get already. But I digress.

Love the banter, thanks Gopherhole.
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Spot on...except you forgot one thing: His recruiting haul last season was rated 12th (12th!!!) in the Big Ten. That's last place for all of you paying attention. I knew that small-program Jerry was going to have difficulty transitioning to a BCS conference in regards to recruiting, but I never thought it would fall that low.
 

In my book, Jerry's got 5 seasons to make it to a legitimate NYD bowl. If he hasn't taken the team there, it's probably time to move on. Of course, Mason's 5th season resulted in a 4-7 record, so if Kill can reach that mark, he can start planning for sainthood, apparently.
 

Breakin' The Plane said:
In my book, Jerry's got 5 seasons to make it to a legitimate NYD bowl. If he hasn't taken the team there, it's probably time to move on. Of course, Mason's 5th season resulted in a 4-7 record, so if Kill can reach that mark, he can start planning for sainthood, apparently.
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But Mason also went 8-4 in Year 3... :cool:
 

How

Breakin' The Plane said:
In my book, Jerry's got 5 seasons to make it to a legitimate NYD bowl. If he hasn't taken the team there, it's probably time to move on. Of course, Mason's 5th season resulted in a 4-7 record, so if Kill can reach that mark, he can start planning for sainthood, apparently.
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Five years to get to a Jan 1 bowl and if not then probably its time to move on? Give me a break.
Kill needs to show progress by yr 3, we are worse, in almost every objective measure, then last year.
Kill's model appears to be catch lightening in a bottle with a senior filled team every 5th season.
That's the plucky small upstart D-1 proven method, shucks, why not do it here? I suppose it could work, but I don't see any evidence that it will.
I get that having a bunch of 22 year old 5th year O-linemen is helpful, but so aren't talented underclassmen.

If you are of the belief, as I am, that Joel Maturi was beyond terrible, you can't take the Kill hire on faith alone.
 

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