What's your bottom line?

[killme]

This is getting off topic, but I think “the right way” talk is dangerous. When you have a lack of WR’s and then look at the stories around the Barker’s, McDonald’s, Harbison’s, etc… is that what you mean by the right way?

I think some are confused as to what the APR measures. Yes, a 994 is incredible. And Kill’s program (made up of many Brewster kids) in his very first year on campus scored a 994. His score in year 2 isn’t as good (although you all won’t see that for a long time).

Doing things “the right way” is important, but it gets overplayed and often without much evidence.

Ahhh, thanks for reminding me about the Barker fiasco. I had fun going back and reading my diatribe on that. We might be at a major impasse in this debate if you're saying you think Barker should be a part of this program.

I can't seem to find what issues you have with McDonald & Harbison.

Doing things the right way does not GET OVERPLAYED. Sheesh. And, I'll be happy to point out all the actual evidence of examples. If you need me to, you really aren't paying attention and know far less that you'd like everyone to believe.

However, you’d be hard pressed to find a doctor that would say Kill’s job has no net impact on his health and that stress levels are of no concern. Even an eighth grade dropout who has been around epilepsy or studied it a bit should know that.

... as someone who thinks coaching at the U is bad for Kill’s health, I can’t put the program ahead of the man.

Much of your response is snarky and you seem to want it both ways when it's convenient for your arguments, but not for opposing views. Facts are important to you for some arguments, beliefs for others. You make statements that include "likely" and "seems to be something to" to back up your opinions about Kill's health.

I'm not an 8th grade dropout, but I'm pretty sure coaching has an impact on a person's health. In fact, the list of things that impact health is probably infinite. So?

I'm not sure what you want, Gopher Warrior. No one reading your posts - including 8th grade dropouts - would conclude you're ultimate concern is for Coach Kill. And, my guess is that even if he wins championships here -- in a way that makes this community proud -- you won't be happy.

 

[killme]

Did you really enjoy the last two games??

Absolutely! TCF was full for Iowa, the mood of the week was electric, optimism high, and it was a big step in many ways towards getting this where we want it to be. Enjoy the journey, don't focus on the destination. Feeling passionate and experiencing the ups-and-downs is a better way to live than a flat line. The disappointment was crushing and painful, making the future wins more enjoyable.

The Gophs went into the Big House without Killer and went toe-to-toe in learning they have a ways to go. After a getting punched in the mouth by Iowa, they slugged with Michigan, but ultimately didn't haven enough to finish it.

The progress seems dramatic, to me.

 

[killme]

I'll be interested to see the spin of those that share the opinion "the program is on pace" if in year 3 the season ends up with an 0-8 conference record.

Also find it interesting the talk from Kill suppoters has turned from Ws and Ls to other things such as graduation rates and relationships with in-state high school as the measure of success in year 3 since it appears the W-L record will not be what they hoped.

As Kill's biggest supporter, I'd like to address this for those of us that do. The wins are important and they will come. Is the Brick by Brick concept too complex for you? Minnesota, of all places, should realize that you can't just go buy a championship. This program must be BUILT. The graduation rates, relationships, loyalty, consistency, fan base, community service, citizenship...it's all part of the process. Yeah, I'd rather be 6-0, but not taking a shortcut. I'd like to see the program succeed and contend annually. That is what is being built.

 

[Gopherprof]

Jerry and his staff are confident they will win here. So am I. So, I encourage Gopher fans to join me in being part of the process of getting there, and to enjoy it.

If you could explain to me how I can enjoy continually losing by 20+ points, I would seriously get on board with that.

 

[lakesgopher]

As Kill's biggest supporter, I'd like to address this for those of us that do. The wins are important and they will come. Is the Brick by Brick concept too complex for you? Minnesota, of all places, should realize that you can't just go buy a championship. This program must be BUILT. The graduation rates, relationships, loyalty, consistency, fan base, community service, citizenship...it's all part of the process. Yeah, I'd rather be 6-0, but not taking a shortcut. I'd like to see the program succeed and contend annually. That is what is being built.

You have no idea if what kill is doing is working for the long term just like those who are skeptical have no idea it isn't working. I think kill gets to be here through year 5 and if we don't have more than 2 wins in conference he is gone and we start over. This "brick by brick" promotion deal is by far the lamest thing to come out of the U. Maybe it would have caught fire in year one but starting this philosophy in year 3 feels like an internal way to let the fans know we won't win for a long time but don't complain cause we have a plan.

 

[OddStack]

This "brick by brick" promotion deal is by far the lamest thing to come out of the U. Maybe it would have caught fire in year one but starting this philosophy in year 3 feels like an internal way to let the fans know we won't win for a long time but don't complain cause we have a plan.

Maybe you mean starting this promotion in year three.

HOWEVER
The "brick by brick" is the PROMOTION started this year but it ISN'T A NEW PHILOSOPHY that started this year. Since day 1, Kill has talked about building a foundation and program from the ground up. Often, saying if you build a house on a bad foundation, things will eventually crumble. He's referenced the building metaphor over and over since the beginning.

 

[killme]

You have no idea if what kill is doing is working for the long term just like those who are skeptical have no idea it isn't working. I think kill gets to be here through year 5 and if we don't have more than 2 wins in conference he is gone and we start over. This "brick by brick" promotion deal is by far the lamest thing to come out of the U. Maybe it would have caught fire in year one but starting this philosophy in year 3 feels like an internal way to let the fans know we won't win for a long time but don't complain cause we have a plan.

I have no idea if the sun will come up tomorrow, but based on my experience, I'm predicting it will. If you want to wait for proof, that's ok. I'm good with moving on if Killer doesn't win. Minnesota might even win as much as you want AFTER HE'S GONE, but based on the experience of the last several decades, I'm predicting NOT. You have a proven program builder and LOTS of issues to overcome (IMHO). He's overcome that everywhere he's been.

Sorry you don't like the BBB theme. It's the "lamest" but it might have caught fire in year one? lol. I don't view it as a way to stave off the complainers, but as an excellent way to educate a fan base that has a large faction that doesn't understand what it takes and what's going on.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

You have no idea if what kill is doing is working for the long term just like those who are skeptical have no idea it isn't working. I think kill gets to be here through year 5 and if we don't have more than 2 wins in conference he is gone and we start over. This "brick by brick" promotion deal is by far the lamest thing to come out of the U. Maybe it would have caught fire in year one but starting this philosophy in year 3 feels like an internal way to let the fans know we won't win for a long time but don't complain cause we have a plan.

I prefer an honest and realistic approach rather than a bunch of hollow promises and hype. As others have stated, Coach Kill has a plan, one that has been proved and tested. He is selling that to the public and I believe that the team is fully on board. BBB has a ton more significance than getting your chile hot!

Coach Danitono (sp) missed three games a couple of years ago with a heart attack and blood clots. MSU seemed to over come that quite well.

We can't keep on showing coaches the door. They need a reasonable amount of time even under "normal" conditions which is certainly not the case the Minnesota. The Gopher program has one of the worst performing track records for decades. I think Mr. Kaler "gets" it and realizes that there is a huge amount of work that must get done even to get to the level of being competitive, rather than being the proverbial BIG doormat. Thus Coach Kill was give a seven year contract.

Coach Kill's health is an issue but not the Achilles Heel of the program. The problems are much more significant that that.

 

[Iceland12]

I prefer an honest and realistic approach rather than a bunch of hollow promises and hype. As others have stated, Coach Kill has a plan, one that has been proved and tested. He is selling that to the public and I believe that the team is fully on board.

Coach Danitono (sp) missed three games a couple of years ago with a heart attack and blood clots. MSU seemed to over come that quite well.

We can't keep on showing coaches the door. They need a reasonable amount of time even under "normal" conditions which is certainly not the case the Minnesota. The Gopher program has one of the worst performing track records for decades. I think Mr. Kaler "gets" it and realizes that there is a huge amount of work that must get done even to get to the level of being competitive, rather than being the proverbial BIG doormat. Thus Coach Kill was give a seven year contract.

Coach Kill's health is an issue but not the Achilles Heel of the program. The problems are much more significant that that.

Agree with the rest but Danitono's heart problems was more relatable to Kill's cancer. Something that was horrible but hopefully, appears to be behind both of them.

 

[edma0012]

Why do we have to wait until after he has 5 years of putrid B1G success to fire him?
Isn't part of Norwood's job to assess the percent chance Kill can turn it around? Every Kill lover in here will point to mysterious subjective signs of tremendous improvement since Kill got here, yet funny, since Kill got here we still can't get to 500 in the B1G.

If Kill is give 10 years, will be find a way to win 4 games in one of those seasons in conference play? Yea, I am sure he will. But we should want more than one out of ten, we shouldn't have to wait so long.

If you wait until after year 5 and its clear to all he ain't got it, then those of us suggesting we do something sooner will be screaming I TOLD YOU SO, but, to turn a Kill phrase- "to be honest with you" I don't want to wait until after he's proven he can't do it. We should be able to make some assessments before its too late. Why lose another 2 years?

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Why do we have to wait until after he has 5 years of putrid B1G success to fire him?
Isn't part of Norwood's job to assess the percent chance Kill can turn it around? Every Kill lover in here will point to mysterious subjective signs of tremendous improvement since Kill got here, yet funny, since Kill got here we still can't get to 500 in the B1G.

If Kill is give 10 years, will be find a way to win 4 games in one of those seasons in conference play? Yea, I am sure he will. But we should want more than one out of ten, we shouldn't have to wait so long.

If you wait until after year 5 and its clear to all he ain't got it, then those of us suggesting we do something sooner will be screaming I TOLD YOU SO, but, to turn a Kill phrase- "to be honest with you" I don't want to wait until after he's proven he can't do it. We should be able to make some assessments before its too late. Why lose another 2 years?

I'm not as convinced as you are that he can't or won't turn it around. I'd like to see him get it done. I think he will. If we get an entire B1G season worth of performances like the last two games, then you will have been convinced. That said, I'm not ready to jump ship based on two piss poor performances. We still have a garbage Indiana team on our schedule, and a Penn State team that got beat by a garbage Indiana team. If we can win those two games and then get a big upset (which is something Kill desperately needs to do sooner rather than later), then I think a lot of us will view this season as a success.

 

[edma0012]

If they steal a win vs Penn State or Indiana, and have a signature win (so 3 B1G wins) that earns Kill one more year, but it will make that Iowa loss look really really bad. If Kill can do this, which I have no belief at all he can or will, we're sorta right back to where we were before.
I'd unhappily concede that if we get 3 B1G this year Kill gets next year no questions.
But if we get 0 B1G? I honestly say no. You can't blame Brewster for not getting any B1G wins in your 3rd season.

 

[Killjoy]

If they steal a win vs Penn State or Indiana, and have a signature win (so 3 B1G wins) that earns Kill one more year, but it will make that Iowa loss look really really bad. If Kill can do this, which I have no belief at all he can or will, we're sorta right back to where we were before.
I'd unhappily concede that if we get 3 B1G this year Kill gets next year no questions.
But if we get 0 B1G? I honestly say no. You can't blame Brewster for not getting any B1G wins in your 3rd season.

LOL - Kaler has been perfectly clear that he supports Kill and believes that it is going to take patience to turn this program around.

 

[tinyarch]

This just makes me so glad that you have ZERO say in anything at the U.

If they steal a win vs Penn State or Indiana, and have a signature win (so 3 B1G wins) that earns Kill one more year, but it will make that Iowa loss look really really bad. If Kill can do this, which I have no belief at all he can or will, we're sorta right back to where we were before.
I'd unhappily concede that if we get 3 B1G this year Kill gets next year no questions.
But if we get 0 B1G? I honestly say no. You can't blame Brewster for not getting any B1G wins in your 3rd season.

 

[thailleagle]

I'm not as convinced as you are that he can't or won't turn it around. I'd like to see him get it done. I think he will. If we get an entire B1G season worth of performances like the last two games, then you will have been convinced. That said, I'm not ready to jump ship based on two piss poor performances. We still have a garbage Indiana team on our schedule, and a Penn State team that got beat by a garbage Indiana team. If we can win those two games and then get a big upset (which is something Kill desperately needs to do sooner rather than later), then I think a lot of us will view this season as a success.

If Indiana, a team very much improved since last year, is garbage then what are we?

 

[GopherRage]

^ This.

We have been really bad for 45 years. Its going to take a little patience to turn this thing around.

Texas A&M was a subpar big12 team and was coming off a 7-6 record 4-5 in big 12 play when Sumlin took over the team.. they move to the SEC and everyone says what a joke they will be there, guy only takes the team to its first 10 win season in 14 years and now they are looked at as a Nat'l Champ team.. all done in one year and with another guys players.. Meyer went to an awful OSU team that had recruited for a slow pace offense for a decade and was under NCAA sanctions and hasnt lost yet. Look at kansas state took Ron Prince 3 years to wreck that program, Bill Snyder comes back and within 3 years they win 10 games. I know Minn isn't osu or aTm but there a lot of coaches that can turn programs around before 4-5 years. Not having your players is an excuse losing coaches use, never hear winning coaches say damn i wish i had my own players..
From 2002 -2005 the Gophers had 32 wins avr(8/yr) won 10 in 2003 and had 3 bowls win, not sure i would say thats really bad.

 

[Gopherprof]

Absolutely! TCF was full for Iowa, the mood of the week was electric, optimism high, and it was a big step in many ways towards getting this where we want it to be.

What the....

 

[GopherGod]

What the....

It is good to know that TCF beer sales are up this year.

 

[Iceland12]

What the....

Forget him. He could care less about the Gophers or any of their fans. Exists solely to usher Kill into Sainthood.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

If Indiana, a team very much improved since last year, is garbage then what are we?

We won't lose to them. If we do, we are nowhere. Didn't they manage to make it through an entire game against a mediocre opponent without even forcing a punt?

 

[Rosemountian]

When this team finishes 1-7 or 0-8 in the conference and there are 25-30k butts in seats for the penn state game, there won't be an option.

Kill needs this team to win. If they don't spark some fan interest, they can't afford to keep him.


Everyone hated Brewster, but at least they cared enough to hate.



I'm interested to see if we improve. But if we finish 0-8 and that stadium is empty against penn state. No way we keep him.

 

[thailleagle]

We won't lose to them. If we do, we are nowhere. Didn't they manage to make it through an entire game against a mediocre opponent without even forcing a punt?

I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if we did lose to them considering their Offense has been lighting it up & we haven't shown our Offense is capable of playing in a possible shootout so I don't think we're in a position to call a team that has improved since last year & will likely go bowling garbage when they could beat us...

If this were about Purdue then yes I would agree they're garbage but Indiana is nowhere near a "gimme" with how lethargic our Offense looks right now...

 

[Gopherprof]

The idea that Indiana on the road is a gimme is *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#ing crazy. Basing that off of the Navy game when:

1) That was by far Indiana's worst game
2) Navy is still probably better than we are

Is equally crazy.

 

[Deleted_User]

If I read another false conclusion that what happened at other schools will happen here fails to acknowledge that similar systems do not always produce identical results. Just like dissimilar systems sometimes produce identical results. If you want to play systems analyst, at least acknowledge some of the better known pitfalls of incomplete analysis. If a typical kill program works every time we should see similar patterns if it were true that it leads to identical results. But on a simple examination, it begins to fall apart. It is proving to show a strong possibility to show multiple possible outcomes, both good and bad. If we are on the bad outcome trend line, then continuing in trusting the plan must be called into question and major adjustments will be required to be made. Minor adjustments will not correct for faulty assumptions. Staying the course for more years only sustains the wrong path longer. This is season three and the books tells we are destined for an 0-8 season. If thatbproves true, then we know continuing for more years will not prove fruitful as we will already have enough datapoints to know the Kill system does not fit Minnesota. Some element in the ecology is not fitting the system. That will have to be accounted for and adjusted for. Continuing as is is not an option. Something must change. What that is is not known yet. But, we do know that Kill is not advocating a new plan yet. That is somewhat disconcerting. Toss on that the major distraction of health issues and the argument that the disease has no influence on his coaching is starting to be clearly false.

 

[50PoundHead]

Texas A&M was a subpar big12 team and was coming off a 7-6 record 4-5 in big 12 play when Sumlin took over the team.. they move to the SEC and everyone says what a joke they will be there, guy only takes the team to its first 10 win season in 14 years and now they are looked at as a Nat'l Champ team.. all done in one year and with another guys players.. Meyer went to an awful OSU team that had recruited for a slow pace offense for a decade and was under NCAA sanctions and hasnt lost yet. Look at kansas state took Ron Prince 3 years to wreck that program, Bill Snyder comes back and within 3 years they win 10 games. I know Minn isn't osu or aTm but there a lot of coaches that can turn programs around before 4-5 years. Not having your players is an excuse losing coaches use, never hear winning coaches say damn i wish i had my own players..
From 2002 -2005 the Gophers had 32 wins avr(8/yr) won 10 in 2003 and had 3 bowls win, not sure i would say thats really bad.

Interesting perspective with Sumlin. One of my wife's cousins is married to a huge A&M fan and he told me Sherman never was accepted by the fans down there, but he recruited fairly well and couldn't get the program completely turned around (did tie for 1st in Big 12 Southern Division in 2010). But Sumlin clearly benefited from Sherman's recruiting classes.

Anyway, I think Kill gets five years if his health holds out and he should. Bottom line for me if he doesn't recruit better, he won't last, but I like the look of this year's class to this point.

The Iowa loss was bad and the nature of the whoopin' a little unexpected. But Michigan simply has better players than we do. We stuck with them for a half, but then, as Jerry Burns used to say "Their big knockers started making plays."

PS--If our pass defense doesn't improve, Indiana may have a field day with us. Of course, if we can play ball control and drain the clock, we could win. It will be an interesting match-up.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

If I read another false conclusion that what happened at other schools will happen here fails to acknowledge that similar systems do not always produce identical results. Just like dissimilar systems sometimes produce identical results...What that is is not known yet. But, we do know that Kill is not advocating a new plan yet. That is somewhat disconcerting. Toss on that the major distraction of health issues and the argument that the disease has no influence on his coaching is starting to be clearly false.

I'm glad to see some rational thought here. Kill gets credited with "turning programs around", but he's only coached one other FBS program - one which had been in bowl games in 2006 and 2004 before his arrival and continues to be a solid program (top 25, unbeaten team currently). Kill has never won an FBS bowl game.

I realize people want to talk up their head coach, but I just don't see the same resume others do. You'll hear a lot about, "the plan" and "it's worked everywhere else we've been", but then when the topic of "year 3" is brought up to compare history vs. Minnesota this year, the excuses begin. "Oh, it's not _really_ year 3 for Kill... it's _like_ year 2; Brewster; Maturi; practice facility; fan support"....

I think people would be well served by stepping back and doing a quick 30-second projection of where they expect this team to be in year 5 of Kill if he's still here. Projecting 5 to 6 wins might* be within a reasonable range, but much more is overly optimistic, right?

Is that still "the plan" that works for you? Every situation is different. Not only is Minnesota a higher level of football, but the program comes with its own challenges... and sadly for Kill, it comes with more demands and stress which are likely adversely affecting his health.

Rough situation. If you believe Minnesota is on path to being an 8-4 squad in 2015 then I absolutely understand why you'd want to stick with Kill. Do people really project that, though?

 

[bottlebass]

Rough situation. If you believe Minnesota is on path to being an 8-4 squad in 2015 then I absolutely understand why you'd want to stick with Kill. Do people really project that, though?

Why can't we project an 8-4 team in 2015? Up until the iowa loss I thought 8-4 could be possible this year if we got a lucky win and I don't think I was completely alone with that thought. I thought we would be an easy 6-6, could probably get a 7th and if things went our way in a game get to 8 (the iowa, Michigan, Nebraska, Indiana, Penn St. games all looked like possible* games we could win). Its obviously not going to happen but before the iowa game I was optimistic it could. So why can't I be optimistic and think we could be 8-4 in 2015?

I know our record doesn't show it right now but there are signs of improvement I see which give me optimism for the future.

 

[goldengophers]

I'm glad to see some rational thought here. Kill gets credited with "turning programs around", but he's only coached one other FBS program - one which had been in bowl games in 2006 and 2004 before his arrival and continues to be a solid program (top 25, unbeaten team currently). Kill has never won an FBS bowl game.

I realize people want to talk up their head coach, but I just don't see the same resume others do. You'll hear a lot about, "the plan" and "it's worked everywhere else we've been", but then when the topic of "year 3" is brought up to compare history vs. Minnesota this year, the excuses begin. "Oh, it's not _really_ year 3 for Kill... it's _like_ year 2; Brewster; Maturi; practice facility; fan support"....

I think people would be well served by stepping back and doing a quick 30-second projection of where they expect this team to be in year 5 of Kill if he's still here. Projecting 5 to 6 wins might* be within a reasonable range, but much more is overly optimistic, right?

Is that still "the plan" that works for you? Every situation is different. Not only is Minnesota a higher level of football, but the program comes with its own challenges... and sadly for Kill, it comes with more demands and stress which are likely adversely affecting his health.

Rough situation. If you believe Minnesota is on path to being an 8-4 squad in 2015 then I absolutely understand why you'd want to stick with Kill. Do people really project that, though?

I agree with both sentiments, how we get beyond our current situation by recruiting similar athletes for a similar system as our rivals has me skeptical. The path to success is incredibly muddled and undefined, simply being less boastful and having more staff stability doesn't indicate future success is on the way. Implementing a continuation of the ground and pound at a successful MAC school is a far different proposition than at Minnesota, as there are several competing schools who have a long history of success with that system and more readily have access to recruits who fit that system. Under Kill we may beat Wisconsin and Iowa once in a blue moon, but I don't see competing with them for 10-15 years if we continue with our current strategy. More than Kill's health my concern is with the direction of this program relative to other schools in our division, not relative to Tim Brewster.

 

[RodentRampage]

My bottom line is that the season isn't over yet, we can't simply assume the Gophers will be 0-8.

 

[Ole]

Texas A&M was a subpar big12 team and was coming off a 7-6 record 4-5 in big 12 play when Sumlin took over the team.. they move to the SEC and everyone says what a joke they will be there, guy only takes the team to its first 10 win season in 14 years and now they are looked at as a Nat'l Champ team.. all done in one year and with another guys players.. Meyer went to an awful OSU team that had recruited for a slow pace offense for a decade and was under NCAA sanctions and hasnt lost yet. Look at kansas state took Ron Prince 3 years to wreck that program, Bill Snyder comes back and within 3 years they win 10 games. I know Minn isn't osu or aTm but there a lot of coaches that can turn programs around before 4-5 years. Not having your players is an excuse losing coaches use, never hear winning coaches say damn i wish i had my own players..
From 2002 -2005 the Gophers had 32 wins avr(8/yr) won 10 in 2003 and had 3 bowls win, not sure i would say thats really bad.

Apples/Oranges/Pinapples

A&M can oversign as much as they want, recruits in Texas during a down phase in Longhorn football, and had the SEC to sell under sumlin. We're no where near the same situation.

KSU went the Snyder route and stocked up on top JUCOs, no way that works here.
Snyder is also a HOF coach with a huge rep in Kansas. Few have his reputation.

OSU does whatever they want in recruiting. The fact they were down, even with the sanctions was unbelievable. No where near the same situation.

Quick turnarounds are not common, and when they do occur often are a result of good luck, underrated recruiting, and a solid hire. Most take time, sometimes even two coaches.

I still haven't seen one thing, not one, that makes me worry about this coaching staff's ability to compete here. They have made moves that are logical to me, seem to build for the future, and have moved in the general direction I would have hoped they would.

I knew Brewster was done when we lost to South Dakota, there was no way to spin that one in year 4. Players were worse, less disciplined, and the program moved in the wrong direction fast.
Mason was done IMO in year 10 when he BARELY beat NDSU, and didn't get his team off the bus in Madison. Then he blamed everyone else but himself for the problem.
He deserved to be fired.
Our AD made an unforgivable hire to replace him, bob's your uncle, we're here.

Show me the trend or moment Kill has shown himself to not be moving in the right direction or has proven himself to not be up to this job. It's either an incomplete or a slow build towards good things at this point. I don't see the regression like the other 2 coaches had HERE.