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minngg said:
Ok, I'll accept your premise. Change out top 10 salary with $2 Million per year. Now it is germaine to whther or not a program would or should extend a coach making that kind of money given the pay back in results that have been achieved.
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See, was that so hard? This is how you have an honest discussion and not just spew venom. You should try more of it sometime.

At any rate, I disagree entirely with your premise. Coaches can be held accountable for transfers, but they cannot be held accountable for injuries. Tubby Smith is the 6th-highest paid coach in the Big Ten this season. With a full year of Mbakwe and Walker, it is quite reasonable to assume a finish of 6th or higher in the Big Ten this season. I am willing to give him another year to see what he can do with a full roster of healthy players. The three seasons that were not decimated by key injuries all resulted in postseason play. If more players transfer and/or get hurt, it is emblematic of a deeper issue and it is probably time to cut the cord. At any rate, he is absolutely not going to get fired after this season, and a Brewsteresque recruiting-purposes-extension is almost a certainty. You can feel free to keep stamping your feet and pouting about his continued employment for at least the next full calendar year, but you will likely get banned before then if you maintain your current trajectory.
 

dpodoll68 said:
See, was that so hard? This is how you have an honest discussion and not just spew venom. You should try more of it sometime.

At any rate, I disagree entirely with your premise. Coaches can be held accountable for transfers, but they cannot be held accountable for injuries. Tubby Smith is the 6th-highest paid coach in the Big Ten this season. With a full year of Mbakwe and Walker, it is quite reasonable to assume a finish of 6th or higher in the Big Ten this season. I am willing to give him another year to see what he can do with a full roster of healthy players. The three seasons that were not decimated by key injuries all resulted in postseason play. If more players transfer and/or get hurt, it is emblematic of a deeper issue and it is probably time to cut the cord. At any rate, he is absolutely not going to get fired after this season, and a Brewsteresque recruiting-purposes-extension is almost a certainty. You can feel free to keep stamping your feet and pouting about his continued employment for at least the next full calendar year, but you will likely get banned before then if you maintain your current trajectory.
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How can you be so sure he's the 6th highest paid Big Ten coach this season when you don't even know that Tubby is making more than
$2 million this year? You're big on facts, right? What does "paid" mean and are you certain that wherever you're pulling the "6th highest paid" claim from is comparing apples to apples? I don't really care about where he ranks amongst Big 1? coaches, but am interested in whether there are actually any good sources for this information (other than public records from the universities, including contracts including any amendments and/or supplemental schedules).

The issue with the "one more year" is that 2012-13 is not going to be a good year. What do you need in the next year? If you need an NCAA tournament berth in 2012-13 in order to want to keep him past next year, then you might as well end it now. (I'm not saying what I would do - I just think the "one more year" reasoning lacks common sense.)
 

dpodoll68 said:
See, was that so hard? This is how you have an honest discussion and not just spew venom. You should try more of it sometime.

At any rate, I disagree entirely with your premise. Coaches can be held accountable for transfers, but they cannot be held accountable for injuries. Tubby Smith is the 6th-highest paid coach in the Big Ten this season. With a full year of Mbakwe and Walker, it is quite reasonable to assume a finish of 6th or higher in the Big Ten this season. I am willing to give him another year to see what he can do with a full roster of healthy players. The three seasons that were not decimated by key injuries all resulted in postseason play. If more players transfer and/or get hurt, it is emblematic of a deeper issue and it is probably time to cut the cord. At any rate, he is absolutely not going to get fired after this season, and a Brewsteresque recruiting-purposes-extension is almost a certainty. You can feel free to keep stamping your feet and pouting about his continued employment for at least the next full calendar year, but you will likely get banned before then if you maintain your current trajectory.
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A couple of things...
a) I never said he should be fired. I said he should not be extended.
b) not one publication I read this year had MN in the top half of the league with Trevor playing. I know they are not always accurate, but all of them were wrong??
c) coaches are held accountable for their record. Every coach has injuires over a 5 year span. This isn't a one year record Tubby has. It is 5 years.
d) if I get banned from this site for advocating a coaching change then I don't want to be here anyway. Who wants to be on a discussion board that only wants one way of thinking? Not me. I think as long as I don't spam and I don't call people names (ahem) I will be allowed on here. Again, if not, I don't care. I am a Gopher fan and there are other boards.
 

minngg said:
A couple of things...
a) I never said he should be fired. I said he should not be extended.
d) if I get banned from this site for advocating a coaching change then I don't want to be here anyway.
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You do realize that these two statements are mutually exclusive, right?

Well...now that I think of it, no...I'm sure you don't realize that.
 

Unregistered User said:
You do realize that these two statements are mutually exclusive, right?

Well...now that I think of it, no...I'm sure you don't realize that.
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Wow. Can you even read? Yes, I advocate a coaching change. Are there ways to do that without firing a coach? Did I say an immediate coaching change? Let me clarify for you. My contention is that without an extension, Tubby leaves. It would be a slap in the face of a very egotistical person. Also, if you do not extend him his buyout goes down after next season. I want him gone, but I understand the politics. Now, perhaps you would like to actually address the point of the thread rather than avoiding it with technicalities. Probably not though huh?
 


minngg said:
Wow. Can you even read? Yes, I advocate a coaching change. Are there ways to do that without firing a coach? Did I say an immediate coaching change? Let me clarify for you. My contention is that without an extension, Tubby leaves. It would be a slap in the face of a very egotistical person. Also, if you do not extend him his buyout goes down after next season. I want him gone, but I understand the politics. Now, perhaps you would like to actually address the point of the thread rather than avoiding it with technicalities. Probably not though huh?
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The point of this thread is that you want Tubby gone. That's it. No amount of rationale, reasoning, logic, statistics, opinion, or venting will change that. I am not interested in posing a position to you that would fall on deaf ears.

Your stance has been made perfectly clear. Over and over, you make it perfectly clear.
 


Gopher Warrior said:
How can you be so sure he's the 6th highest paid Big Ten coach this season when you don't even know that Tubby is making more than$2 million this year?
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I'm not at all certain that you know that he's making more than $2 million this year either. And if you do, none of us have any reason to believe you, because you won't post the contract. Multiple sources, including publicly available, searchable salary databases, all have him at less than $2 million. And, if he really is making more than $2 million due to deferred compensation, isn't it reasonable to assume that all/most/some of the other coaches have quirky compensation structures that aren't reflected in their reported salary figures as well?

Gopher Warrior said:
are you certain that wherever you're pulling the "6th highest paid" claim from is comparing apples to apples
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No, I'm not. I at least have something for others to cite and refer to (whether you buy it or not, which I'm certain that you don't because it doesn't support your stance), while you have nothing other than allegedly having seen the contract for some reason.

Gopher Warrior said:
but am interested in whether there are actually any good sources for this information (other than public records from the universities, including contracts including any amendments and/or supplemental schedules
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http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/bo...-Big-Ten-men-s-basketball-head-coach-salaries

I'm quite certain that none of the news reports meet your capricious and arbitrary guidelines for "good" sources, so I don't know why I'm even bothering to take the time to respond.

Gopher Warrior said:
The issue with the "one more year" is that 2012-13 is not going to be a good year. What do you need in the next year? If you need an NCAA tournament berth in 2012-13 in order to want to keep him past next year, then you might as well end it now. (I'm not saying what I would do - I just think the "one more year" reasoning lacks common sense.)
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What makes you so certain that next year is going to be so terrible? Worst-case scenario (assuming no transfers), we lose Ralph and Rodney from the current available players, we gain Walker, Ellenson and Buggs, and every other player on the roster is a year older and more experienced. How is that not a net gain? Best-case scenario, Trevor is granted a waiver and comes back (highly doubtful though it is), Walker is fully healed, and Ellenson and Buggs become meaningful rotation players in their first year to add to the increased experience, strength, etc. from every other returning player. I don't think expecting a tournament bid in 2012-13 is at all unreasonable. I think you sometimes forget that you're allegedly a Gopher fan and that you spend too much time in your Golden Eagle persona.
 

People who use Tubby's salary as an excuse to want him gone are weak sauce. It's like an employee who's unhappy because they're not earning enough. Give them more money & in a week they're unhappy again because the root causes were never addressed. The guys who claim their beef with Tubby is his salary are being dishonest. They'd be just as unhappy with Tubby if he earned 500k. It's just a petty way to try to validate their opinions.
 



Costa Rican Gopher said:
People who use Tubby's salary as an excuse to want him gone are weak sauce. It's like an employee who's unhappy because they're not earning enough. Give them more money & in a week they're unhappy again because the root causes were never addressed. The guys who claim their beef with Tubby is his salary are being dishonest. They'd be just as unhappy with Tubby if he earned 500k. It's just a petty way to try to validate their opinions.
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I've said more or less the same very recently. I asked the Tubby haters if they would want him fired with a hypothetical $1 salary. Of course they would, but my query was met with crickets chirping. The performance relative to Minnesota's historical standards and Tubby's own historical standards are what's important, not what he's making.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I'm not at all certain that you know that he's making more than $2 million this year either. And if you do, none of us have any reason to believe you, because you won't post the contract. Multiple sources, including publicly available, searchable salary databases, all have him at less than $2 million. And, if he really is making more than $2 million due to deferred compensation, isn't it reasonable to assume that all/most/some of the other coaches have quirky compensation structures that aren't reflected in their reported salary figures as well?
Click to expand...

You do have reason to believe me - because I am telling you I have read the contract and given reasons why figures may have been reported as they were via other sources. You're OK citing BS sources sometimes, but not OK with someone who has the contract in front of them. That's silly.

As for 'quirky compensation structures' - YES, it is reasonable to assume (although the particular retirement arrangement is due more specifically to Tubby's circumstances). That's my point - you need to look at the contract(s) to know the numbers yourself, otherwise you run an extremely high risk of getting incomplete information.

What makes you so certain that next year is going to be so terrible? Worst-case scenario (assuming no transfers), we lose Ralph and Rodney from the current available players, we gain Walker, Ellenson and Buggs, and every other player on the roster is a year older and more experienced. How is that not a net gain? Best-case scenario, Trevor is granted a waiver and comes back (highly doubtful though it is), Walker is fully healed, and Ellenson and Buggs become meaningful rotation players in their first year to add to the increased experience, strength, etc. from every other returning player. I don't think expecting a tournament bid in 2012-13 is at all unreasonable. I think you sometimes forget that you're allegedly a Gopher fan and that you spend too much time in your Golden Eagle persona.
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Not sure what a golden eagle is, but who said next year is going to be 'so terrible'? It's going to be typical. I never said anything about whether or not next year's teams will be a "net gain" over this year's team. There is a lot more that goes into competing in the Big Ten than just your team improving. Everyone else doesn't stand still or regress, while Minnesota improves.

Back my question - "What do you need in the next year?" You said you want to give Tubby Smith one more year... is this based on some principled measurement? Or just.. "let's give him one more year.. and then evaluate it.. it's not time to evaluate yet.. we'll judge in a year, but I don't know how I will judge yet..".. or are you saying, "not only do I expect a tournament appearance next year, I am not willing to give the coach more time if we fail to make it again"? Is there some measurement... "6th place is fine as long as they make the tourney?".. "4th or better?" Or is it just a loosey-goosey "it depends" next year, where you may just give it another, "well... let's wait another year.. I can't tell yet"?

I'm just saying if you are in the "one more year - must make the tourney" camp, that doesn't make sense to me because they don't look like a tournament team.
 

minngg said:
b) not one publication I read this year had MN in the top half of the league with Trevor playing. I know they are not always accurate, but all of them were wrong??
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Not sure I understand what your beef with Tubby is then. He lost his best player to injury and has still been competitive in most games. He has one of the youngest lineups in the big ten and has been competitive in most games. Clearly recruiting can't be your issue since the players he has are able to compete with the top teams while missing their best player and being so young. Is it his game day coaching? Do you think no other coach makes mistakes during games? I have seen plenty of other coaches take ill timed time outs among other mistakes. Many coaches have different substitution patterns. I would say he is being paid just about right considering the circumstances. Are you a kentucky fan or racist or something?
 

Gopher Warrior said:
You do have reason to believe me - because I am telling you I have read the contract and given reasons why figures may have been reported as they were via other sources. You're OK citing BS sources sometimes, but not OK with someone who has the contract in front of them. That's silly.
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As I have stated multiple times, I like you and everything, but I have no reason to take you at your word on blind faith. Post the contract so we can all see it. I'm fairly certain you're not making it up, but I'm not 100% certain until I can see it with my own eyes. I can say I saw Jerry Kill's contract and it gives him a lifetime extension if he makes a bowl game, but what reason would anyone have to believe me until they can see it themselves? The sources I've cited, whether you agree with them or not, are available for any human being with functional vision and a functional computing device to view with their own eyes. That is in contrast to what any of us have from you on this topic, which is your word. Your word and a Franklin will get you a $100 gift card at Best Buy.

Gopher Warrior said:
I'm just saying if you are in the "one more year - must make the tourney" camp, that doesn't make sense to me because they don't look like a tournament team.
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It makes perfect sense to me. Then again, I actually prefer being a fan of the teams I'm a fan of, rather than looking for reasons to be pessimistic. I disagree that they don't look like a tournament team.
 



Costa Rican Gopher said:
People who use Tubby's salary as an excuse to want him gone are weak sauce. It's like an employee who's unhappy because they're not earning enough. Give them more money & in a week they're unhappy again because the root causes were never addressed. The guys who claim their beef with Tubby is his salary are being dishonest. They'd be just as unhappy with Tubby if he earned 500k. It's just a petty way to try to validate their opinions.
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+1
 

Gopher Warrior said:
How can you be so sure he's the 6th highest paid Big Ten coach this season when you don't even know that Tubby is making more than
$2 million this year? You're big on facts, right? What does "paid" mean and are you certain that wherever you're pulling the "6th highest paid" claim from is comparing apples to apples? I don't really care about where he ranks amongst Big 1? coaches, but am interested in whether there are actually any good sources for this information (other than public records from the universities, including contracts including any amendments and/or supplemental schedules).

The issue with the "one more year" is that 2012-13 is not going to be a good year. What do you need in the next year? If you need an NCAA tournament berth in 2012-13 in order to want to keep him past next year, then you might as well end it now. (I'm not saying what I would do - I just think the "one more year" reasoning lacks common sense.)
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nm
 

My beef is with Tubby's performance, not his salary. His high salary is relevent only in that he is getting paid very well for these poor results.
 


dpodoll68 said:
I've said more or less the same very recently. I asked the Tubby haters if they would want him fired with a hypothetical $1 salary. Of course they would, but my query was met with crickets chirping. The performance relative to Minnesota's historical standards and Tubby's own historical standards are what's important, not what he's making.
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His performace over historical standards is NOT what is important. Under this premise, a team in last place should only expect every coach to meet that standard. Ridiculous. The standard here is to make the top half of the conference once in awhile. Tubby isn't even close. The standard should be to compete for a title and if Tubby can't do it, next one in.
 

Three pages of nonsense and one person addressed the point. Since nobody wants to address the point, I'll throw out a challenge. Show me one time, one instance, where a coach in a major conference was extended with this type of conference record. Surely, we can't be the only school that would consider such an extension for this type of record. Northwestern? Maybe.
 

minngg said:
Three pages of nonsense and one person addressed the point. Since nobody wants to address the point, I'll throw out a challenge. Show me one time, one instance, where a coach in a major conference was extended with this type of conference record. Surely, we can't be the only school that would consider such an extension for this type of record. Northwestern? Maybe.
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I can come up with one. Like you said, Northwestern. Even in the same conference: Bill Carmody. Also, Doc Sadler at Nebraska. That was easy:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebask...3/nu-fans-not-thrilled-with-carmody-extension

http://huskerextra.com/sports/mens-basketball/article_f589fcb0-0de7-59f2-b26d-0d31564a2a30.html

Ed DeChellis: Penn State

http://nittanywhiteout.com/2009/10/01/ed-dechellis-signs-contract-extension/

Trent Johnson at LSU:

http://www.wbrz.com/news/lsu-hoops-coach-johnson-to-get-contract-extension

Paul Hewitt: Georgia Tech-2010. He was extended before he went to George Mason

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/c...ension-mix-st-john-red-storm-article-1.177576


I'm sure I could add to the list but I got to work. Do I win a prize of some sort?
 


minngg said:
His performace over historical standards is NOT what is important. Under this premise, a team in last place should only expect every coach to meet that standard. Ridiculous.
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Of course performance relative to historical standards is important. One could go so far as to say that it's all-important. Making a bowl game more or less every year at Northwestern practically gets you a lifetime extension (see Fitzgerald, Pat). Making a bowl game more or less every year at Alabama gets you fired in 4 years (see Shula, Mike). Making the Final Four at VCU gets you a ten-year extension. Making 3 straight Final Fours at UCLA gets people wanting to fire you within 4 years because you've had the audacity to not win a national championship yet. Saying performance relative to historical standards is not important is possibly the stupidest thing you've ever typed on this forum.

minngg said:
The standard here is to make the top half of the conference once in awhile.
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HAHAHA!! Based on what?!?!? The Gophers have finished in the top half of the conference exactly ONE time since 1993. ONE time in 19 seasons. Most people I know don't count every 19 years as "once in awhile". Dutcher and Musselman did it more regularly, but they were cheaters. The last coach to do it "once in awhile" without cheating was John Kundla, who did it 4 straight years ending in 1966. So many here like to pretend that Minnesota basketball is so much more accomplished than Minnesota football historically. Hell, even Glen Mason managed to finish in the top half of the conference 3 times.

Minngg here evidences three delusional illnesses endemic to the Tubby Haters:

1) They have an inflated and/or unrealistic sense of Minnesota's standing in NCAA basketball historically, and especially over the last 30 years.

2) They don't understand the difference between realistic and unrealistic expectations, especially as it pertains to Minnesota basketball.

3) They don't understand the difference between expecting something to happen and hoping for it to happen.
 

we cant because we don't the U paid monson as well as all their football coaches more money than their record warranted. the beat goes on
 

dpodoll68 said:
Of course performance relative to historical standards is important. One could go so far as to say that it's all-important. Making a bowl game more or less every year at Northwestern practically gets you a lifetime extension (see Fitzgerald, Pat). Making a bowl game more or less every year at Alabama gets you fired in 4 years (see Shula, Mike). Making the Final Four at VCU gets you a ten-year extension. Making 3 straight Final Fours at UCLA gets people wanting to fire you within 4 years because you've had the audacity to not win a national championship yet. Saying performance relative to historical standards is not important is possibly the stupidest thing you've ever typed on this forum.



HAHAHA!! Based on what?!?!? The Gophers have finished in the top half of the conference exactly ONE time since 1993. ONE time in 19 seasons. Most people I know don't count every 19 years as "once in awhile". Dutcher and Musselman did it more regularly, but they were cheaters. The last coach to do it "once in awhile" without cheating was John Kundla, who did it 4 straight years ending in 1966. So many here like to pretend that Minnesota basketball is so much more accomplished than Minnesota football historically. Hell, even Glen Mason managed to finish in the top half of the conference 3 times.

Minngg here evidences three delusional illnesses endemic to the Tubby Haters:

1) They have an inflated and/or unrealistic sense of Minnesota's standing in NCAA basketball historically, and especially over the last 30 years.

2) They don't understand the difference between realistic and unrealistic expectations, especially as it pertains to Minnesota basketball.

3) They don't understand the difference between expecting something to happen and hoping for it to happen.
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Sad. Really sad. You are going to tell me thatour expectations for our head basketball coach should not be to finish in the top half of the league? We need to get out of the Big ten ASAP.

I judge my expectations on what is possible here. Not what has been. I have no illusions of what the program has accomplished. Clem Haskins and Jim Dutcher both finished in the top half of the conference many times. If you want to say Clem only did it because of cheating that is your choice. Just don't pretend it wasn't done. In fact it was done quite often until the punishments from Clem's actions. Your new standard is that we should never recover from sanctions for the rest of the program's life??

There is no reason we cannot win in basketball here. None. You can accept mediocrity. I won't.
 

One more tidbit. If Tubby has winning records his next two years (doubtful) he will tie Dan Monson for having 2 winning records in the Big Ten in 7 years. This despite Monson having limited scholarships, other sanctions and cheating scandel hanging over the program.
 

minngg said:
You are going to tell me thatour expectations for our head basketball coach should not be to finish in the top half of the league?
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Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. For people who can read and are sane, it is not at all reasonable to expect the early 21st-century Gophers to finish in the top half of the Big Ten at all in any random 5-year period.

minngg said:
There is no reason we cannot win in basketball here.
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Who said otherwise? Again, there is an enormous difference between expectation and possibility or hope. Please consult Webster for clarification.

minngg said:
You can accept mediocrity. I won't.
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You keep saying this as though it actually means anything. What practical implications does it have for you or your life? Have you stopped going to the games? Have you stopped watching them on TV? Have you stopped posting on message boards about the team? Have you stopped investing yourself emotionally in the team's performance? Have you stopped thinking about the team? What exactly does "not accepting mediocrity" mean?
 

dpodoll68 said:
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. For people who can read and are sane, it is not at all reasonable to expect the early 21st-century Gophers to finish in the top half of the Big Ten at all in any random 5-year period.



Who said otherwise? Again, there is an enormous difference between expectation and possibility or hope. Please consult Webster for clarification.



You keep saying this as though it actually means anything. What practical implications does it have for you or your life? Have you stopped going to the games? Have you stopped watching them on TV? Have you stopped posting on message boards about the team? Have you stopped investing yourself emotionally in the team's performance? Have you stopped thinking about the team? What exactly does "not accepting mediocrity" mean?
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If you don't know what it means...re-read the post you just wrote. That is what it means.
 

minngg said:
If you don't know what it means...re-read the post you just wrote. That is what it means.
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That makes no sense. I don't understand what you are saying. Just spell it out for us, in terms of what it means to your life practically.
 

savagerube said:
I can come up with one. Like you said, Northwestern. Even in the same conference: Bill Carmody. Also, Doc Sadler at Nebraska. That was easy:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebask...3/nu-fans-not-thrilled-with-carmody-extension

http://huskerextra.com/sports/mens-basketball/article_f589fcb0-0de7-59f2-b26d-0d31564a2a30.html

Ed DeChellis: Penn State

http://nittanywhiteout.com/2009/10/01/ed-dechellis-signs-contract-extension/

Trent Johnson at LSU:

http://www.wbrz.com/news/lsu-hoops-coach-johnson-to-get-contract-extension

Paul Hewitt: Georgia Tech-2010. He was extended before he went to George Mason

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/c...ension-mix-st-john-red-storm-article-1.177576


I'm sure I could add to the list but I got to work. Do I win a prize of some sort?
Click to expand...

Well, you were right on some but not all. Trent Johnson was extended prior to 5 years. Hewitt was extended in 2004 and had a contract extension rollover for each year he worked. This, of course, after he took GT to the National Championship game with GT in his 4th year coaching there. I'll give you Carmody, Sadler and DeChellis even though DeChellis took PSU to the NIT title and 4th place in conference the year he got the extension. Something Tubby has never done here.

Any more or just these bottom feeders?
 


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