What is wrong with this team?

GopherWeatherGuy

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This is ridiculous....Whalen's freshman class this year was basically top 10-20 in the country. You've got to give her a chance for these players to play....I don't know about her coaching ability, but I doubt you've had a lot of conversations with D1 coaches about her ability.

As for Johnson, I'm as frustrated as anyone, but to say that he can't attract enough talent when he just signed the best recruiting class in a long long time, seems a bit short-sighted.

Comparing women's basketball to mens is apples and oranges. Men's basketball generates the 2nd most revenue of all U sports, and women's bball is one of the biggest losers. It's much easier to be patient on the women's side when Whalen is bringing in top recruiting classes in the country and they don't make any money.

But if this uncompetitive mens basketball continues and the barn becomes more of a ghost town, that's a big problem when it comes to generating revenue and would require faster action.

As far as Ben's recruiting, next year is a nice class with a lot of potential, but it's not top 10-20, nor is it that rare here. It's still a middle of the pack B1G class currently ranked in the mid 30s nationally. It's comparable to the class Pitino brought in with Coffey and Curry. Both Pitino and Tubby have had several similarly ranked classes.
 

ecoperson

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I think this has shown why Ben is what I thought he was, a really good assistant coach. Good recruiter, great person and what i would call a players coach. He will be their friend and tell them it's ok when they lose. I'm not saying you have to get Fran level red and go nuts but my lord show a little emotion, get a little fired up. He was so worried about hurting feelings he wouldn't even get another PG or fill the roster. That's an absolute joke. Izzo sits his 4* studs all the time. Look at 1st year coach Jon Scheyer, his 2 top freshman ride the pine when they do stupid things.

I look forward to gopher bball more than any other sport, but I'm terrified we are stuck in reverse for another 2-3 years. And if you don't think other teams aren't lining up to poach guys like Payne after an 8 win year, then you don't know how college sports work.
Why do you feel that they are stuck in reverse? Will the new players not improve with more experience? Will the new talent coming next year be duds?

So many fans in this board have sounded miserable for the last 18 months or so. Why do they put themselves through this?

Fans really only have a few choices:

1. We can continue to pound their heads against the wall game after game and make ourselves sick and miserable.
2. We can take a small step back for the year, be a little less invested in the outcomes, and look for the small wins and improvements. (As a Timberwolves ticket holder from the inaugural season, this has usually been my approach with that team. I get to watch some of the worlds' best players on both sides of the court do some amazing things.)
3. We can make a big stink with the administration to let them know that we are walking away from the program and the university for good unless they invest in a better product. (I personally think that we are far too early in season 2 to be this drastic... especially with the talent signed for next year. Others may think otherwise.)
4. We can support NIL to the best of our abilities so that we can attract and retain the talent necessary to remain competitive.
 

ecoperson

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Lots of delusional homers thinking our guards are more than capable…it’s laughable
You're using the wrong tense... lots of fans thought our guards were more capable than they have shown thus far in 7 games. Cooper appeared to be more solid and to be a true pass-first PG that this team lacked last year. Carrington and Henley were expected to be more talented than Loewe and Stevens. Samuels was expected to be more viable as a back-up than Thiam and walk-ons. It hasn't happened as many had thought as guard play has been concerning.
 

MaxyJR1

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Mixing a bunch of new players together, including 4 freshmen is a recipe for disaster and add in a 2nd year coach. It's not time to panic with 2 good players being added next year (Plus those injured), but they need to play for each other and become a team. They need some Fleck affect in the program right now. I agree with those saying it's just too stagnant on offense. They don't have a premier ball handler and distributer at this point. They need to share the ball better.
 

fan of Ray Williams

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I’m starting to get the sense carrington will never be more than he has already shown (a spotty shooter with decent defense). He won’t grow into a slasher / penetrator…that would already be part of who he is as a ball player. Example: Henley struggles when attacking, but he has a mindset to go to the hole and attack. Carrington settles for treys all the time and never goes to the hole.

Payne should leave.

I guess the program is so bad, coupled with fan empathy that even if young guys play good…they will most likely transfer to a school with a real shot to make a run. The U has turned into a feeder school for other real power 5 schools.

Sad but true due to the transfer portal.
Brilliant.
 


leib0039

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Why do you feel that they are stuck in reverse? Will the new players not improve with more experience? Will the new talent coming next year be duds?

So many fans in this board have sounded miserable for the last 18 months or so. Why do they put themselves through this?


Fans really only have a few choices:

1. We can continue to pound their heads against the wall game after game and make ourselves sick and miserable.
2. We can take a small step back for the year, be a little less invested in the outcomes, and look for the small wins and improvements. (As a Timberwolves ticket holder from the inaugural season, this has usually been my approach with that team. I get to watch some of the worlds' best players on both sides of the court do some amazing things.)
3. We can make a big stink with the administration to let them know that we are walking away from the program and the university for good unless they invest in a better product. (I personally think that we are far too early in season 2 to be this drastic... especially with the talent signed for next year. Others may think otherwise.)
4. We can support NIL to the best of our abilities so that we can attract and retain the talent necessary to remain competitive.
I guess I have not seen any progression. I have no time for "well we have freshman and transfers", FYI EVERYONE DOES! Arkansas seems to do fine with new guys and freshman every year. TT is the glaring one, 0 improvement with now what 18 months with this staff. We have seemingly gotten worse in every game this year I feel like.

As far as why do fans do this, for me its because I love the U and especially the bball team, always have. I want them so badly to succeed that it just drives me bananas to watch them struggle over and over and over. I appreciate you can step back and accept being bad most every year, I cannot do that. In today's landscape there is no reason to be a bad B1G team for 25+ years. I don't expect to be top 10 every year but we cant have even 1 good run in 25 years?
 

Dupreefor3

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My own personal feeling (which is purely based on intuition) is that he wouldn't be fired after three years unless he has three straight losing years. 4 years with no NCAA tournament might do it.
That's where I am at with it too. I think if this year and next year end up like last season or only marginally better, than I think he might be gone, but three lousy years would certainly put him on the hot seat for year four, which would probably be a win or else type of year. With thats aid I expect they younger guys to improve this year and finish this season with a better big ten record than last year and I think we should have roster next year that competes for a Tourney birth. As far as Pitino goes, his saving grace beyond the buyout in year three was quite frankly not having a boss in place to fire him until it was too late. The AD job would have been less appealing if they didn't ave the opportunity to assess the situation and potentially bring their own person in.
 

Dupreefor3

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Comparing women's basketball to mens is apples and oranges. Men's basketball generates the 2nd most revenue of all U sports, and women's bball is one of the biggest losers. It's much easier to be patient on the women's side when Whalen is bringing in top recruiting classes in the country and they don't make any money.

But if this uncompetitive mens basketball continues and the barn becomes more of a ghost town, that's a big problem when it comes to generating revenue and would require faster action.

As far as Ben's recruiting, next year is a nice class with a lot of potential, but it's not top 10-20, nor is it that rare here. It's still a middle of the pack B1G class currently ranked in the mid 30s nationally. It's comparable to the class Pitino brought in with Coffey and Curry. Both Pitino and Tubby have had several similarly ranked classes.
bball classes are pretty subjective though. For example Pitino's 2019 class was rated better than his 2016 and I think we all agree which class we would rather have. the 2023 class is nice, but it's also only two players so that's going to bring down the overall composite.
 

ecoperson

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I’m starting to get the sense carrington will never be more than he has already shown (a spotty shooter with decent defense). He won’t grow into a slasher / penetrator…that would already be part of who he is as a ball player. Example: Henley struggles when attacking, but he has a mindset to go to the hole and attack. Carrington settles for treys all the time and never goes to the hole.

Payne should leave.

I guess the program is so bad, coupled with fan empathy that even if young guys play good…they will most likely transfer to a school with a real shot to make a run. The U has turned into a feeder school for other real power 5 schools.

Sad but true due to the transfer portal.
Carrington is coming off of an ankle injury. Have you ever played ball? Did your game suffer due to an injury? If you have played, you would know that it can take a couple of weeks to trust your body again after an injury.

Did you watch Sam Jacobson early in his Gopher career? He really struggled outside of a few dunks and 3-pointers. He improved considerably as he went. I am not comparing the two but the thought that Carrington cannot improve is garbage.

The rest of your post is simply a ridiculous take and not even warranting of a response.
 



GopherWeatherGuy

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bball classes are pretty subjective though. For example Pitino's 2019 class was rated better than his 2016 and I think we all agree which class we would rather have. the 2023 class is nice, but it's also only two players so that's going to bring down the overall composite.

I agree, but I wasn't going just off of composite, I was also looking at average recruit ranking. That would move 2016 ahead of 2019 and drop '19 towards the bottom of the conference where it belongs. 2016 would remain towards the top.

Currently looking at next years class, it's in the middle of the pack either way. My point is that many B1G teams that are currently ahead of us have brought in just as much, if not more young talent on paper than the Gophers have this season, and will again next season.

It's one of the most difficult conferences in the country because everyone has talent, it's coaching that sets teams apart. The Gophers are void of both right now.
 

ecoperson

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I guess I have not seen any progression. I have no time for "well we have freshman and transfers", FYI EVERYONE DOES! Arkansas seems to do fine with new guys and freshman every year. TT is the glaring one, 0 improvement with now what 18 months with this staff. We have seemingly gotten worse in every game this year I feel like.

As far as why do fans do this, for me its because I love the U and especially the bball team, always have. I want them so badly to succeed that it just drives me bananas to watch them struggle over and over and over. I appreciate you can step back and accept being bad most every year, I cannot do that. In today's landscape there is no reason to be a bad B1G team for 25+ years. I don't expect to be top 10 every year but we cant have even 1 good run in 25 years?
How old are you?! You are using a U email address as your moniker so I get the sense that you are either a current student or graduated within the last 10 years. I can safely say that you are less than 35 unless you are a prof.

Thompson was recruited by Pitino. Thompson has improved but doesn't provide what we would like out of a 7 footer. Bigs often take some time to develop. John Thomas was doughy and didn't provide much for a year or two.

Arkansas did not choose a first time head coach. Arkansas is in the middle of a section of the country with a lot of great talent. Arkansas is not located in a frozen tundra. Once the Johnson hire was named, everyone should have known that this was going to take some time. Coyle was rolling the dice and hiring Johnson on potential and hoping that he'd grow into the role. Coyle's career is partly riding on this gamble.

The Gophers have not been a bad B1G team for 25+ years. They've made it to the tourney as recently as 2019 where they made it to the second round. They have 5 other appearances in the tourney in the last 15 years or so. You act like this program is comparable to the Northwestern teams from about 1985 to 2000. I remember those teams winning 1 or 2 conference games year after year after year. Heck, I think they even were winless a couple of seasons.

There is nothing wrong with aspiring for a run but NO ONE expected this was the year that it was going to happen so why melt down now? Clem had a couple of clunkers in his first two seasons and then led us to some memorable runs. I imagine that you would have turned on him too.
 

cjbfbp

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Mixing a bunch of new players together, including 4 freshmen is a recipe for disaster and add in a 2nd year coach. It's not time to panic with 2 good players being added next year (Plus those injured), but they need to play for each other and become a team. They need some Fleck affect in the program right now. I agree with those saying it's just too stagnant on offense. They don't have a premier ball handler and distributer at this point. They need to share the ball better.

You know, they really only had two good ball handlers last season (Willis and Loewe) but the team passing and ball movement was better. This may be a case of needing to regain some of that. It's not like this team has superior one-on-one players.
 

ecoperson

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I agree, but I wasn't going just off of composite, I was also looking at average recruit ranking. That would move 2016 ahead of 2019 and drop '19 towards the bottom of the conference where it belongs. 2016 would remain towards the top.

Currently looking at next years class, it's in the middle of the pack either way. My point is that many B1G teams that are currently ahead of us have brought in just as much, if not more young talent on paper than the Gophers have this season, and will again next season.

It's one of the most difficult conferences in the country because everyone has talent, it's coaching that sets teams apart. The Gophers are void of both right now.
You continue to look for any possible way to spin to the negative. Evans is the highest rated recruit that we've attracted in 20 years... AND he's not from Minnesota! Christie has been rated in the top 100 by multiple services AND is the brother of a one and done player who went to Michigan State. These are reasons to be excited NOT be a debby downer.
 



Outsider

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bball classes are pretty subjective though. For example Pitino's 2019 class was rated better than his 2016 and I think we all agree which class we would rather have. the 2023 class is nice, but it's also only two players so that's going to bring down the overall composite.
This, next years class will be small unless there are several transfers out. The composite will be a tough compare. Based on the two presently, it’s a pretty good class. I wish they were playing better but I’m willing to give them some time before I just throw in the towel. I live out of state and work my schedule trying to watch as much as I can. It’s disheartening at the moment but I’m still watching. I see glimpses of improvement.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy

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That's where I am at with it too. I think if this year and next year end up like last season or only marginally better, than I think he might be gone, but three lousy years would certainly put him on the hot seat for year four, which would probably be a win or else type of year. With thats aid I expect they younger guys to improve this year and finish this season with a better big ten record than last year and I think we should have roster next year that competes for a Tourney birth. As far as Pitino goes, his saving grace beyond the buyout in year three was quite frankly not having a boss in place to fire him until it was too late. The AD job would have been less appealing if they didn't ave the opportunity to assess the situation and potentially bring their own person in.
Maybe he placed money on the game last night and knew the spread…hence why he put full court pressure on VT’s backups when they were down 18-20 pts with under 90 seconds…had to cover his gambling losses (potential) - the next Pete rose…
 

Spaulding!No!

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We shoulda asked uw who was the runner up for the hc when Gard got the job. We’ll take him/her. There is a real chance that this bball hiring is coyle’s Waterloo.
 
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Dupreefor3

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Maybe he placed money on the game last night and knew the spread…hence why he put full court pressure on VT’s backups when they were down 18-20 pts with under 90 seconds…had to cover his gambling losses (potential) - the next Pete rose…
Okay, not sure what that has to do with anything I said that you quoted. Unless you picked the wrong post.
 

Dupreefor3

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This, next years class will be small unless there are several transfers out. The composite will be a tough compare. Based on the two presently, it’s a pretty good class. I wish they were playing better but I’m willing to give them some time before I just throw in the towel. I live out of state and work my schedule trying to watch as much as I can. It’s disheartening at the moment but I’m still watching. I see glimpses of improvement.
Also, do we count Betts as a member of the 2023 class?
 

Dupreefor3

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You know, they really only had two good ball handlers last season (Willis and Loewe) but the team passing and ball movement was better. This may be a case of needing to regain some of that. It's not like this team has superior one-on-one players.
Pretty sure Stephens was a PG at Lafayette as well. The one thing I am frustrated with this year is we need one more guard, Samuels is fine in his 6 minute back up role, but guys like Loewe and Stephens are a dime a dozen, we should have been able to attract a guy of their ability to push Carrington and Henley.
 

Blackhammer

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Pretty sure Stephens was a PG at Lafayette as well. The one thing I am frustrated with this year is we need one more guard, Samuels is fine in his 6 minute back up role, but guys like Loewe and Stephens are a dime a dozen, we should have been able to attract a guy of their ability to push Carrington and Henley.
I was surprised we could basically guarantee a starting two guard spot in the Big Ten and we couldn’t get a decent player. Makes no sense.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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I was surprised we could basically guarantee a starting two guard spot in the Big Ten and we couldn’t get a decent player. Makes no sense.

Because that's not how Ben saw it. He saw Ihnen as the starter at the 2 and Carrington/Henley as competition.
 

howeda7

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Pretty sure Stephens was a PG at Lafayette as well. The one thing I am frustrated with this year is we need one more guard, Samuels is fine in his 6 minute back up role, but guys like Loewe and Stephens are a dime a dozen, we should have been able to attract a guy of their ability to push Carrington and Henley.
Ben seems totally against using the 12th and 13th scholarships for fear of upsetting someone and having them transfer. I don't get it. It's foolishness, IMO. Injuries always happen. And if someone can't crack the rotation on this team, they should transfer if they don't like it.
 

march madness

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Because that's not how Ben saw it. He saw Ihnen as the starter at the 2 and Carrington/Henley as competition.
6-7 plus players at the 2 in college are NBA lottery players. I hope he wasn’t that demented in his thinking! Even Coffey came in as a sf who eventually gained the strength to handle the ball like a 2 guard should.

No matter how we label the positions we have a bunch of guys without the quickness to be playing certain spots, none the less ball handling, shooting , etc.
 

Blackhammer

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Because that's not how Ben saw it. He saw Ihnen as the starter at the 2 and Carrington/Henley as competition.
If that’s actually the way he saw it I’d say blew it Ihnen seems to be regarded as the next Magi’s Johnson Last time I saw him play he couldn’t handle, shoot or play defense although his physical ability made him a decent prospect,
 

PhiloVance

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Normally I would check the bb schedule and then set to record the game in case I can't watch it live. I'm not going to so that in the future. If I miss watching them live, a distinct possibility, I don't have to waste time deleting the recording.
 

DLib

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This will be a long season but this group is going to turn it around. I still think coach will be successful. Players play and he will recruit good players
 

Formerswish

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I agree, but I wasn't going just off of composite, I was also looking at average recruit ranking. That would move 2016 ahead of 2019 and drop '19 towards the bottom of the conference where it belongs. 2016 would remain towards the top.

Currently looking at next years class, it's in the middle of the pack either way. My point is that many B1G teams that are currently ahead of us have brought in just as much, if not more young talent on paper than the Gophers have this season, and will again next season.

It's one of the most difficult conferences in the country because everyone has talent, it's coaching that sets teams apart. The Gophers are void of both right now.
I've read so many of these posts that see total failure based on the first 7 games of the season. I don't know what people expected when:
  • You lose 2 of your top 6-7 players before the season
  • You're playing pretty heavy minutes to 4 freshmen
  • Your best player missed a bunch of games, isn't in game shape yet, and is shooting about 20%
  • Garcia has not played particularly well so far and hasn't provided much help inside
The important thing about this year is developing players for the future. They don't have the experience or talent this year to win. This team has a lot of flaws. They don't have much team quickness at the guard position, they don't move the ball well, they don't rebound well (Payne excluded), and they shoot poorly and don't defend well(which is exceedingly common for most freshmen). Except for the team quickness issue, they will get better at all of these things as the year goes on, and they may improve more than a lot of other teams that aren't playing freshmen heavy minutes.
It looks like we have 4 freshmen who are talented enough to be eventual contributors on a Big Ten team, and Payne is going to be a monster. He hasn't showed a lot of what he can do yet, and he's going to blow some people away. We have a kid who is widely regarded as the best shot blocker in the country and a top 5 center coming next year, as well as the top recruit in Illinois, to pair with Betts, Ihnen, and Fox as newcomers. Those people ragging on Ihnen as not valuable don't know the value of a 6-10 guy who is athletic and can guard 4 positions effectively.

I'd love to see more quickness at the guard position for next year, but I think a lot of people need to take a deep breath and keep the expectations down for this year. They'll win some Big Ten games, and they'll probably end up well down in the standings. But they'll improve, and the future is pretty solid with what they have next year. If this team doesn't improve by the end of the year, that's more of a problem. Let's give them a chance and enjoy some player development-that's what's important this year.
 

MennoSota

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So we've played less than 10 games with 4 freshmen playing significant minutes and some folks are running around impersonating Chicken Little. Thank God our coaching staff doesn't have your attitudes.
 

bga1

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I've read so many of these posts that see total failure
This is explained by...
based on the first 7 games of the season. I don't know what people expected when:
  • You lose 2 of your top 6-7 players before the season
  • You're playing pretty heavy minutes to 4 freshmen
  • Your best player missed a bunch of games, isn't in game shape yet, and is shooting about 20%
  • Garcia has not played particularly well so far and hasn't provided much help inside
The important thing about this year is developing players for the future. They don't have the experience or talent this year to win. This team has a lot of flaws. They don't have much team quickness at the guard position, they don't move the ball well, they don't rebound well (Payne excluded), and they shoot poorly and don't defend well(which is exceedingly common for most freshmen).
This^^ roster construction, lack of quickness and effort, which you don't like either, obviously.
Except for the team quickness issue, they will get better at all of these things as the year goes on, and they may improve more than a lot of other teams that aren't playing freshmen heavy minutes.
It looks like we have 4 freshmen who are talented enough to be eventual contributors on a Big Ten team, and Payne is going to be a monster. He hasn't showed a lot of what he can do yet, and he's going to blow some people away. We have a kid who is widely regarded as the best shot blocker in the country and a top 5 center coming next year, as well as the top recruit in Illinois, to pair with Betts, Ihnen, and Fox as newcomers. Those people ragging on Ihnen as not valuable don't know the value of a 6-10 guy who is athletic and can guard 4 positions effectively.

I'd love to see more quickness at the guard position for next year, but I think a lot of people need to take a deep breath and keep the expectations down for this year. They'll win some Big Ten games, and they'll probably end up well down in the standings.
We should not be happy with that.
But they'll improve, and the future is pretty solid with what they have next year. If this team doesn't improve by the end of the year, that's more of a problem. Let's give them a chance and enjoy some player development-that's what's important this year.
This I agree with. I really like the frosh on this team. A lot of people here do yet are unhappy with the construction of the team (in this age of free agency) and the lack of any form on offense.

I see both the reason for the glass half full and half empty approach this year. Ben may well become a great coach...but there is no track record that points us to confident patience. There lies the problem.
 

RockChalk

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It’s pretty simple…..Battle and Garcia 4-19. Both are SUPPOSED to be borderline all-B10 type players. Instead, neither steps foot inside the lane and both settle for easy jumpers. The fact that neither went to the FT line is ridiculous. When shots aren’t falling, grow some balls and take the ball to the hole. Gonna be a long year.
Well said!!!
 




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