Well, you obviously don't like the obvious answer which is that there is no talent to play behind on this team. If we are counting on Buggs and Ellenson to contribute much next year, especially Buggs, it is going to be another long year.
What is the biggest reason we are 10th in B1G standings?
- Thread starter Stan
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Well, you obviously don't like the obvious answer which is that there is no talent to play behind on this team. If we are counting on Buggs and Ellenson to contribute much next year, especially Buggs, it is going to be another long year.
I like how you think you know this without knowing anything about the players.
It is clear to me that you will only be happy with the talent on this team if it is a team with 12 5-star players.
Yeah, because there is nothing in between our talent and 12 5* roster, lmao.
Bob_Loblaw
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I'm not the biggest Tubby fan in the world (somewhere in the middle of these disagreements). But I think it's a bit absurd to say that Tubby isn't a good recruiter. His problem has been that for a variety of reasons, we have lost some players. The injuries aren't his fault, the transfers? I don't know where to place that blame. I think it partially has to be on Tubby because it's become a trend. However, lousy recruiting? I don't think so....
This lineup:
Trevor / Ralph / EE
R. White / Colton Iverson
R. Williams / Joe Coleman
D. Joseph / Austin Hollins / C. Armelin
Cobb / Andre Hollins
*I assumed that Mav got Cobb's scholarship
*I assumed that Ingram got Colt's scholarship
*I assumed that Welch got Joseph's scholarship
*I assumed that Mo got Mbakwe's scholarship
That team would have quite a bit of talent. Tubby recruited all of those players and I think all of my assumptions are pretty valid. Being able to recruit hasn't been his problem, it's been attrition.
Bob_Loblaw
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I disagree wholeheartidly to that comment. Tubby has at times chosen the wrong local kids to recruit or had a local kid choose another school, but look at the amount of local kids who play big roles in college basketball.
J. Taylor
M. Brusiewitz
R. White
R. Williams
T. Mbakwe
T. Lockett
S. Dower
I know that I am missing some kids and I don't expect Tubby land every local kid. However, there are some really good players in that list...
In fact, does:
C: Berggren / Dower
PF: R. White / M. Brusiewicz
SF: R. Williams
SG: Lockett / J. Coleman
PG: Taylor
Are they an NCAA tourney team? I think that'd be one of the best teams in the Big 10. If Mbakwe was healthy and you threw him in there, I think that team would be a REALLY good team.
With all respect...losing players is bad. Replacing them with bad players is worse. Just because you lose someone doesn't mean you have recruit a replacement late in the process. Never recruit just to fill.
Didn't the kids that went to Wisconsin commit before Tubby got here?
Bob_Loblaw
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Taylor had already commited by the time Tubby was hired. But he did have quite a bit of time to try to get him to change his mind. Berggren...i'm not sure. Brusewitz...no.
I'm not really even blaming Tubby for missing on some of those kids. But I also don't think it's accurate to say that Tubby's been burdended by a downturn in local talent.
Maybe not at the beginning of his tenure, but last year was only Coleman and I don't even know if there were any the year before.
EDIT:
NVM, Kevin Noreen was 2010, but if we had recruited him I feel like people would have criticized Tubby for recruiting a soft player.
The trend for recruiting is down. Tubby's luster was bright and the excitement level high when he was hired. The star has dimmed because in the end, winning is what counts with recruits. Also, the number of transfers is a warning sign for recruits. Tubby's first two classes were excellent. After that....meh.
Bob_Loblaw
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That may be true and that might be an argument 2 years from now, when some of these guys graduate and leave college. But the fact remains that there is a lot of talent from MN that is currently playing basketball at a high level in college. So, Tubby's record, this season, isn't a result of a void of local talent.
Bob_Loblaw
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Again, the problem isn't recruiting. The problem is that these older players are leaving. We aren't a program that will bring in a fresh crop of 5 star recruits every season, we are going to need to count on upperclassmen if we want to be a top tier Big 10 team.
Joe Coleman and Andre Hollins are both real nice players. But we aren't going to win if we have to count on them to be "the guy". If they were playing their role, what should have been their role, they'd look like exceptional recruits.
Our problem isn't that Devoe was a better recruit than Andre Hollins. Our problem is that Devoe as a SR is much better than Hollins (right now). However, they were about equal as FR. They played about the same amount of minutes and had almost identical stats.
Bob_Loblaw
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You always recruit to fill. You need to fill up your team. I get what you're saying that you don't always need to offer every scholarship. I agree with you that Tubby has seemed to rush into some players late in the process. However, he has continued recruiting at a level that is good enough to finish in the Top 10 in the Big 10. We just need those players to stay in our program long enough to develop.
Disagree. Did you mean top half of the Big Ten or top 10 of the Big Ten?
Devoe is a nice player. Nothing exceptional. You can't really count Royce. He never played here. Mbakwe was a JC that was from here. Mo has only played 120 minutes in two years so who knows if he is good or not? Sampson didn't pan out. Tubby recruited fine when he was the big new name in town, but the trend is down. We have a bunch of average Big Ten players. Not bad, but not good and no stars. In his tenure, the only stars he has recruited are Royce and Trevor and both came with big time baggage.
Bob_Loblaw
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Obviously I meant top half.
If you look at the players he has brought in and if you imagine that those players stayed the entire time, our talent level would be at the top 1/2 of the conference.
I'm not excusing Tubby for failing to keep the players around, I do believe that is partially his fault. I'm just saying, that the larger problem is attrition and not recruiting.
Bob_Loblaw
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Devoe isn't exceptional, but he'd be the best guard on our team by a long shot.
(16 - 4 - 3 on 46% shooting (45% from 3))
in comparison, Jordan Taylor is averaging 14 points - 4 reb and 4 assists on 40% (33% from 3).
So keeping Devoe would have been similar to adding Jordan Taylor. Taylor is better defensively, but Devoe is better offensively.
Cobbs is averaging 13 points - 2 reb - 5 assists shooting 49% and 47% from 3.
So Cobbs is putting up similar numbers to Jordan Taylor as well.
That backcourt would be a PROFOUND upgrade to our current backcourt. That isn't taking anything away from Joe and Andre. Because as i've pointed out Joe and Andre were every bit as good as Devoe and Cobbs as freshman. It's about developing.
If you want to get rid of Royce, that's illogical. He was here for two years. He is a product of attrition, however Tubby did recruit him. But for your argument, lets get rid of Royce...
Sampson / EE
Mbakwe / Oto
Williams / Austin Hollins
Joseph / Coleman
Cobbs / dre Hollins
That team is still significantly better than our current squad.
As far as them having baggage and/or them not being here now, that's a completely seperate argument. It's the exact argument that i've been making the entire time. IT's about attrition, people leaving the program. It isn't about Tubby not being able to bring good players into the program.
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Rodney was also highly touted coming out of high school, and he should probably be included in the list of recruited "stars."
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Read my comment instead of just highlighting a line. Last year, Coleman; this year no one; is there anyone next year? I'm not going back several years. Also, Taylor had committed and Tubby said he respected that.
Bob_Loblaw
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I realize what you're saying and I disagree with it. If you want to leave Taylor out of it, leave him out of it.
The problem is that you aren't going back several years. Those are the guys currently playing college basketball. Those are the only local guys who could impact the talent level of our CURRENT squad. You graduate HS and then you go to college. So by definition, when you're looking at college players, you're looking at HS players back a year(s).
The question is....
"What is the biggest reason we are 10th in B1G standings?"
We aren't 10th in the B1G standings this year because the 2012 class of MN HS SR's isn't as good as other years. You're pullling the cart before the horse. The lack of talent from the state of MN in 2011, 2012 and 2013 could very well be a really strong argument for why MN would be down from the years of 2014, 2015, 2016. But right now? Our team is bad because the future classes stink?
The talent level of players who are from MN who are CURRENTLY playing college basketball is pretty high, especially for a state like MN. That is the only talent level that has an impact on our current squad's success.
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Bob_Loblaw said:
Taylor committed before Tubby came aboard. The rest were all part of the same class.
All in the same class:
M. Bruesewitz
R. White
R. Williams
T. Mbakwe
T. Lockett
S. Dower
Tubby had one really good class. That's it. He is supposed to be a national coach. Yet, the stars are all from MN and one was a JC and the other a thug. We are now looking at WI's rejects. Bo Ryan and his boring offense has a 5 star player next year and a top pg offered by Duke and NC coming in the next year. He beat Tubby for Ben Brust. Iowa has a great class coming in. I realize that if every player Tubby signed had stayed we might have finished in the top 5 for a year or two, but you recruit players with baggage you aren't a good recruiter. Remember Trevor was one willing witness from being a convicted felon and never playing here too. Now if Tubby was still bringing in Royce type players or even Trevor type players I would be more willing to excuse his bad luck. I don't see it or forsee it happening.
Gold Vision
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Tubby has had two very good classes here.
Disagree. Sampson, Joseph, Iverson, Bostick and Carter is an average Big Ten class.
Gold Vision
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2008 was the third ranked B1G class. 2009 was the second ranked. You have an interesting view of an "average" class.
Gold Vision
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What ever fits your argument man. Keep on spinning.
You judge recruiting on stars? Seriously? This is how you judge a recruiting class? Brewster must have been your man. WHo is spinning who??
reason#1:
the last two in-state classes have been busts...
2007 - 2009 was exceptional...
next great year is 2014..
but we will have suffered 5 lean years between 2009 & 2014.
with top coaches/programs all around the big10 now, its tough to get a top kid out of Chicago.. or anywhere in the Midwest...
the last two in-state classes have been busts...
2007 - 2009 was exceptional...
next great year is 2014..
but we will have suffered 5 lean years between 2009 & 2014.
with top coaches/programs all around the big10 now, its tough to get a top kid out of Chicago.. or anywhere in the Midwest...
minngg said:
Luckily there are facts that show a correlation between stars and college success. Definitely are outliers. But I'd bet 75% of players drafted last year (meaning they had college success) were 4 or 5 star recruits. I am sure Dpo has actual numbers as he is a big proponent of the stars system on the football board. But yes, stars do matter.