What is Coyle's, "keep Ben, win tally?"

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
Oh god put your erection away for Musselman and get over it. He was never coming here in 2019 or last year.

The only time it could have been an option was hiring him instead of Pitino after Tubby. But even then, the U was never hiring Eric with his personality and the prior issues with his dad.
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Danny Barreiro said musselman was coming here. Dan also called Denny Green a chicken fried moses but he doesn’t like that brought up.
 

Spaulding!No! said:
Danny Barreiro said musselman was coming here. Dan also called Denny Green a chicken fried moses but he doesn’t like that brought up.
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Barreiro's Gopher "sources" are specious as best.

He also has a radio relationship with Mussleman. It's selfishly good for his business to claim that we could've had him multiple times.
 

Block M said:
Ben would consistently win at MN if he could recruit and most importantly, retain, players. He gets his guys ready to play and the X's and Os are pretty good. He has a terrible time managing players minutes and rotations, which has contributed to the exodus of talent. I dont think he's back under any circumstances, which is too bad. I wanted him to succeed but all the upheaval in his program and CBB in general has been too much to overcome. Glad to see the team is competing hard though.
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Ben is that you?? Xs and Os are pretty good.... in what world? They've been abysmal. 3 years we've finished 58th/235th/93 in off, 115/188/153 in defense. For a big ten team that's absolutely pathetic.
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
Before the season I was a tourney bid or new coach time guy, like most everyone else.

But now...if we somehow finish 10-10 this season after starting 0-6, I could be convinced/could see a world where that buys Ben another year. Not saying I'd support that, but would that be super outrageous?

With a brand new roster yet again next season it wouldn't make sense, but...
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The roster turnover is the reason I don't think anything short of an NCAA bid will be good enough.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Oh god put your erection away for Musselman and get over it. He was never coming here in 2019 or last year.

The only time it could have been an option was hiring him instead of Pitino after Tubby. But even then, the U was never hiring Eric with his personality and the prior issues with his dad.
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There were sources who said he wanted it. You can believe they are wrong. Even if you take Musselman out of the equation we very likely would have hired someone better than Ben Johnson in 2019.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
Oh god put your erection away for Musselman and get over it. He was never coming here in 2019 or last year.

The only time it could have been an option was hiring him instead of Pitino after Tubby. But even then, the U was never hiring Eric with his personality and the prior issues with his dad.
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That's why we are a pathetic, losing program into oblivion.

Carry on!
 

bga1 said:
What would Coyle be fine with? To get to 20 regular season wins (not counting BTT) he'd have to go 9-2 the rest of the way. We would ALL be happy to welcome him back at 12-8. What if he goes 7-4 the rest of the way (9-11 in conference)? Does Coyle re-up him?
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No, Coyle should fire him if he goes 9-11.
 





This team is highly dependent on Garcia and some other really old players. What would they even have next year? This run is fun but it’s not a young team for the future?
 

bga1 said:
There is no way I am going to be Ben's defense attorney here, because it really should be NCAAs or bust...but the logic from Ben's side will be:

-Had a good team and lost it due to lack of NIL
-Have a solid frosh class incoming (the big guy appears to be legit)
-Lost Cochran and may get him another year here
-Revenue sharing will help compete on a level playing field for the first time
-Great comeback after 0-6 start (assumes 7-8 BT Ws). The team improved and never quit
-Didn't have Mitchell for 6 games
-Team developed a gritty, defensive identity as the season went on
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Howeda7 has pretty much articulated everything I would say and I know you are trying to play devil's advocate here, and don't actually believe all this stuff.

- Last years team lost 5 of 6 to end the year and finished in the bottom 4 of the conference by Net/KenPom. If they had to play Illinois or Purdue twice (or simply played one of them at home instead of on the road), they almost definitely end up playing on weakling Wednesday. He got a gift of a year 4 as is with his overall B1G conference record being the worst in program history and worse than someone like Todd Lickliter who was fired after 3 seasons.

-The Freshman class is horrid on paper. At most between the 3 players he's bringing in there was one other high major offer (USC offered Jefferson but it sure doesn't seem like he could have committed there). Grove fits in with this bunch in terms of offers and that's why his 2024 class was ranked 17th out of 18 in the Big Ten.

- Fair point on Cochran though he was going to Oregon State before coming here, not exactly a Trevor Mbakwe type they are playing without.

- Had a level playing field his first year and finished last. His decisions to go Senior heavy that year and the awful performance contributed to where they are in terms of that playing field. You have to do something to excite the fanbase and Ben has spent the better part of 4 years making various (often contradictory) excuses for failure.

- Did they never quit or did they quit and start trying again? Lots of questions about the effort of this group prior to the last 3 games. Still would deserve some credit, but I am not sure how much for winning 35 or 40% of his conference games?

- One injury to a player the caliber of Mitchell for 6 games can't be an excuse for anything.

- Team is currently 84th in Defensive rating. Assuming they continue to show improvement, maybe they finish in the 50's? In the prior 3 years, the best they've finished is 115th. Outlier or a sign of things to come? Even if the defense was "real" 50th isn't good enough for an at large bid unless the Offense is in the same range to that and even then you are likely talking bubble status.
Look at Vanderbilt this season. They just had two better home wins than Ben got (or has had in his 4 seasons combined) and are currently in the projected NCAA field and their coach is in year 1. The 7-8 wins Ben could theoretically get this year would be equal to what the Penn State coach achieved last year in year 1. Dennis Gates got Missouri to the tournament in year 1, had a horrible year 2 (except for beating Ben), and now has Missouri in the top 25 again. I am just wondering who we possibly compare ourselves to if a year 5 could be granted without an NCAA bid this year.

I am already concerned that Coyle could bring him back and I think your scenario where it would only take 7-8 conference wins for him to do it is terrifyingly realistic. If there wasn't a red line to make the tournament this year, what makes anyone think there will be one next season? Does anyone not believe Ben will be whining about his team being "young" next year or what his NIL was able to afford in the portal? Ben couldn't win with Dawson Garcia, and he's going to be better next year without him? The reasons to keep Ben beyond this season would be as poorly thought out as the original decision to hire him. We're talking about a hypothetical record of 23-56 (29%!) here through 4 seasons with no NCAA bids and 2 last place finishes. It's incredibly depressing to have to ponder this instead of just being able to enjoy a couple wins in what is almost certainly a lost season barring them winning 9 or 10 of their remaining 11 games.
 

bga1 said:
There is no way I am going to be Ben's defense attorney here, because it really should be NCAAs or bust...but the logic from Ben's side will be:

-Had a good team and lost it due to lack of NIL
-Have a solid frosh class incoming (the big guy appears to be legit)
-Lost Cochran and may get him another year here
-Revenue sharing will help compete on a level playing field for the first time
-Great comeback after 0-6 start (assumes 7-8 BT Ws). The team improved and never quit
-Didn't have Mitchell for 6 games
-Team developed a gritty, defensive identity as the season went on
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-Completely agree with all these points. Even when we were struggling, the team didn't stop playing.
-That's the only positive thing about TC is that he could get a medical redshirt year if he plays less than 30% of the games this year. It would be nice to have at least SOMEONE return to next years roster.
-Parker Jefferson does look like the real deal. Just recently had a triple double and is routinely putting up 30+ ppg. Another recruit, Jacob Ross is an extremely athletic wing who was in the high school dunk contest. Shinholster is another athletic wing as well.

We NEED get off to a better start next year or that hot seat will become unbearable

**edit** I forgot Frank Mitchell has one more year of eligibility as well
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yes and everyone is so excited about beating two ranked teams at home back to back for the first time since......the year Pitino was fired. Pitino beat 5 ranked teams at home that season and was still fired.
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not quite the same. gophers were ranked in January and started the year 11-0 @home
 




GopherWeatherGuy said:
So you'd rather just suck from the beginning of the season, and that's more of a reason for a coach to not lose his job?
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just saying expectations were different. 2020 team was expected to make the ncaa tournament and they failed miserably down the stretch.
 

howeda7 said:
It should be 12-8, which is likely the # required to make the NCAA tournament. It will be at most 10-10 and probably something like 6-7.

This is why I wanted a move made earlier. There are times when wins do more harm than good. It happened in 2019 when beating Purdue clinched an NCAA bid, saved Pitino for two more years and cost likely us Musselman. It could happen again this year. We shouldn't be put in a position where we have to choose between wins and prolonging long-term agony for the program.
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With all due respect we were never getting Musselman. We were never going to out bid Arkansas. Our chance there was in 2013. Not trying to be a dick but Musselman conspiracy theories are just something I'm going to pour cold water on every time. Besides Will Wade is the way!
 

Strongazzoffer said:
With all due respect we were never getting Musselman. We were never going to out bid Arkansas. Our chance there was in 2013. Not trying to be a dick but Musselman conspiracy theories are just something I'm going to pour cold water on every time. Besides Will Wade is the way!
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AMEN!
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
So beating Purdue, making that nice run in the BTT, and beating Louisville for our 2nd tournament win since the scandal did "more harm than good"...got it!

Think we've now heard it all.
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Didn't you know that in the hypothetical situation.....the Gophers would be a powerhouse now?
 

The bar is unfortunately probably less than most of us want. I'm guessing 8 wins and we roll it back again.
 

golfing18now said:
The bar is unfortunately probably less than most of us want. I'm guessing 8 wins and we roll it back again.
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Hell, no I was on the side of hoping Ben would make this happen but it’s not gonna happen. It’s 12 wins. It’s the championship game at least in the Big Ten tournament and one NCAA tournament win or bust. I’m sick of the 27 year drought.
 

golfing18now said:
The bar is unfortunately probably less than most of us want. I'm guessing 8 wins and we roll it back again.
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Coyle was willing to fire Whalen who is women's basketball royalty....I don't understand why some are so convinced he won't be willing to move on from Ben.

4 years of sub .500 big ten records and no NCAA tournament appearances combined with a roster that is going to turn over again and lose almost all of its key pieces.....

8-12, near the bottom of the conference....is not going to be good enough to justify year 5 knowing he is going to have to go out and find nearly a whole new team again.
 
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Rocksoldier said:
Hell, no I was on the side of hoping Ben would make this happen but it’s not gonna happen. It’s 12 wins. It’s the championship game at least in the Big Ten tournament and one NCAA tournament win or bust. I’m sick of the 27 year drought.
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I don't think they would have to win a NCAA tournament game but I believed it was NCAA tournament or bust coming into the season and I don't think anything has changed that....in spite of all the scenarios that fans can dream up.
 

leib0039 said:
Ben is that you?? Xs and Os are pretty good.... in what world? They've been abysmal. 3 years we've finished 58th/235th/93 in off, 115/188/153 in defense. For a big ten team that's absolutely pathetic.
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I would say those rankings are more indictive of a talent issue then an X and Os issue. I'm not here to say Ben some great basketball mind, but I've also had season Tix for 20 years not counting my years as a student so I've seen Monson, Tubby, Pitino and now Ben and how they operate. Ben's biggest issue is talent Acquisition. Every year there one glaring obvious weakness in his roster. I also think he overplays guys and that kills us defensively at the end of games, especially in February and March. I wish there was move movement offense but I'll also say 9/10 teams play iso guard ball dominant hero ball these days so that's more of an overall state of the game then a Ben Johnson issue. Thorson also runs the defense he calls everything out if you're ever at the games. And again I would say our issues there are more talent based then they are work ethic and schismatic. Doesn't mean this is all okay it's a results business when it's all said and done but in today's environment 70 percent of the job of obtain and managing talent. X and Os just aren't nearly as important as they use to be.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I don't think they would have to win a NCAA tournament game but I believed it was NCAA tournament or bust coming into the season and I don't think anything has changed that....in spite of all the scenarios that fans can dream up.
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Agreed I think the only way it's gets weird is if Ben matches or surpasses his conference win total from last year. Optics will not look good if we fire Ben coming off a winning conference record. Especially if you throw in that he's a person of color, alumni, former player, been a media darling since he was in high school. Perception of previous white incompetent coach getting eight years. This decision will be easier if Ben finishes 6-14 or 7-13 or worse.
 

Something that has to be considered is that BJ has to replace 9 seniors on this roster. Does the AD trust that he can do it and make the program better? Could be more if any underclassmen leave. Flipping an entire roster every year is not sustainable.

  • Make the B1G tourney
  • Make sure Grove and Asuma are on board
  • Rate the incoming classmen
  • Who are potential transfers in
  • What is the salary allotment for our basketball program
  • What does NIL look like
  • Is Ben the guy going forward
All things that need to be vetted by the AD
 

Strongazzoffer said:
Agreed I think the only way it's gets weird is if Ben matches or surpasses his conference win total from last year. Optics will not look good if we fire Ben coming off a winning conference record. Especially if you throw in that he's a person of color, alumni, former player, been a media darling since he was in high school. Perception of previous white incompetent coach getting eight years. This decision will be easier if Ben finishes 6-14 or 7-13 or worse.
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Not sure many saw Pitino as incompetent. He qualified for 2 NCAA tournaments during his time here but after 8 years it was time for a change.

I agree that the conversation on Ben's future only shifts if the win total gets into the .500 or better range in conference and there is still a ways to go before we even get to that point.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Not sure many saw Pitino as incompetent. He qualified for 2 NCAA tournaments during his time here but after 8 years it was time for a change.

I agree that the conversation on Ben's future only shifts if the win total gets into the .500 or better range in conference and there is still a ways to go before we even get to that point.
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I personally wouldn't say Richard was incompetent but people will no doubt go there. I would say he was incredibly mediocre but he's doing a good job at New Mexico and will probably parlay that into a Big East/ ACC type of job in the next couple of years. I also agree Ben probably needs sevenish more wins for this to be a scenario too
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Something that has to be considered is that BJ has to replace 9 seniors on this roster. Does the AD trust that he can do it and make the program better? Could be more if any underclassmen leave. Flipping an entire roster every year is not sustainable.
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Yep....it's the main reason I don't think falling short of the NCAA tournament, even if the record is similar to last year's will be good enough this time around.

Some don't agree but when it came time to make a decision about his future after last season there was enough on the roster to make a case that 24-25 could be even better with the players coming back and the potential to add to them.

That won't be the case after this season as no matter who is coaching next year they are going to have to rebuild nearly the entire roster.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Something that has to be considered is that BJ has to replace 9 seniors on this roster. Does the AD trust that he can do it and make the program better? Could be more if any underclassmen leave. Flipping an entire roster every year is not sustainable.

  • Make the B1G tourney
  • Make sure Grove and Asuma are on board
  • Rate the incoming classmen
  • Who are potential transfers in
  • What is the salary allotment for our basketball program
  • What does NIL look like
  • Is Ben the guy going forward
All things that need to be vetted by the AD
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I personally don't think any of the freshman are job saving recruits, they're nice prospects but they'll need time There's no Amir Coffey, Andre Hollins or even an Asuama in that group. We lose them I would trust if we hire established coach there will be guys that he brings with him. With that said I do agree you have to take inventory every year when making decisions about your program I just don't think the 2025 class is any ace in the hole.
 

Part of me thinks Cole was keeping Ben the whole time regardless of record.

Truth is, the last two coaches were fired after NCAA tournament appearances.

Ben has been kept with the worst winning percentage in Gopher history.

Based on those facts, how can you possibly make an accurate prediction?
 

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