Vikings Plan Two-Year Stay at TCF

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As Reusse stated a few days ago(and repeated this morning); "If you have a billion dollars and can't make it work for both baseball and football, you hired the wrong architect."
 

Gopherdrummer said:
Installing heating coils would require the turf to be completely replaced. It's sets up the U nicely. "Free" heating coils and a new field, so the U can get the latest and greatest version of FieldTurf on the market. Sell recruits the fact that they will be playing on a state of the art field that they would only be able to find at the Pro level.

Just hope they get the timing down of the move. The U could easily host an outdoor hockey game before they need to rip up the turf and eliminate any concern of ruining the field by plopping an artificial sheet of ice on top of it since it will be ripped out anyway. The sooner they figure out the timeline, the better for everyone.
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Not sure about the rest of the Big Ten, but Wisconsin just installed some last season
 



I'm definitely in the minority here but I think it is foolish to alter the design of a pro football stadium to accommodate a couple hundred American legion games and a dozen Gopher games each season - regardless of who is paying for it. Why don't we go alter Target Field so that amateur football can be played there? The Vikes get stuck with the multi-use stadium because they were the slow runner in getting the stadium approved?
 


badgergopher said:
I'm definitely in the minority here but I think it is foolish to alter the design of a pro football stadium to accommodate a couple hundred American legion games and a dozen Gopher games each season - regardless of who is paying for it. Why don't we go alter Target Field so that amateur football can be played there? The Vikes get stuck with the multi-use stadium because they were the slow runner in getting the stadium approved?
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I tend to agree, the Dodgers played 4 seasons in the Coliseum.
 

RedPoo said:
Putting aside the corporate welfare/inefficient and wasteful "single use" side of the Vikings' argument, you're ignoring the most relevant practical fact in this discussion. We know for a fact that the Vikings can play in a football-centric stadium that offers a great experience for their fans while also providing a half-decent venue for the many (MANY) amateur baseball teams that use it. We know this because they're DOING IT RIGHT NOW. There's a lot of bad things one could say about the dome, but that the dual-sport nature of the venue hurts the football experience isn't one of them. (Unless you're scared of the small section of pull-out bleachers, for some reason. But I don' know of anyone who is.)

What we're arguing about here isn't a good Vikings experience vs. wider Public use. It's the amount of money the Wilfs are going to have to shell out to make it a passable baseball venue. It's going to be great for football regardless.
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Does it say somewhere in the bill that it has to be baseball friendly? Or just multipurpose? I'm curious on the actual language. That actually makes a difference to me.

Why should the Wilf's have to pay for an 'upgrade' to make it baseball friendly? I'd rather have their money going to other upgrades like the retractable roof, rather than pull out seats. If amateur baseball is that necessary, should amateur teams be pitching in? How much are the Gophers or MSHSL contributing?
 

pharmacygopher said:
Does it say somewhere in the bill that it has to be baseball friendly? Or just multipurpose? I'm curious on the actual language. That actually makes a difference to me.

Why should the Wilf's have to pay for an 'upgrade' to make it baseball friendly? I'd rather have their money going to other upgrades like the retractable roof, rather than pull out seats. If amateur baseball is that necessary, should amateur teams be pitching in? How much are the Gophers or MSHSL contributing?
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It's very likely nothing in the up-front costs (unless you count the opportunity costs $500M could have gone towards from the state's contribution). But keep in mind the Vikings will very likely retain suite, concession, parking revenues for these events and charge a fee to use it.

I agree if the bill is not explicit then the Vikings have a legal gripe in what they are being asked to do. That doesn't change the discussion here on the forum about what is right vs wrong for a stadium funded with public dollars making up the majority of the total cost.
 

pharmacygopher said:
Does it say somewhere in the bill that it has to be baseball friendly? Or just multipurpose? I'm curious on the actual language. That actually makes a difference to me.

Why should the Wilf's have to pay for an 'upgrade' to make it baseball friendly? I'd rather have their money going to other upgrades like the retractable roof, rather than pull out seats. If amateur baseball is that necessary, should amateur teams be pitching in? How much are the Gophers or MSHSL contributing?
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That's a very good point. Until then, I'll stick with the years of Viking lobbying where the incessantly beat the drum that a new roofed stadium wouldn't just benefit the Vikings but the state as a whole. High schools, colleges, football, soccer and yes baseball where mentioned again and again.

Don't have a "dog in this hunt", and as you say the contract's language will be the deciding factor but it would be nice for once to see a Real Estate Developer measure-up to their promises.
 



Iceland12 said:
That's a very good point. Until then, I'll stick with the years of Viking lobbying where the incessantly beat the drum that a new roofed stadium wouldn't just benefit the Vikings but the state as a whole. High schools, colleges, football, soccer and yes baseball where mentioned again and again.

The Vikings were never beating the drum for a roofed stadium... The Wilf's would have been happy with an open air Foxboro style campus like Patriots have, except in Arden Hills, where they control parking and every possible revenue stream.

Any other talk of these other uses was just political window dressing, and any practical politician and power player in this process knew that.

The only actual "multipurpose" goal that anyone really cared about was the ability to host NCAA Final Fours, which is a big revenue generator for the tax base and area as whole. All that people's stadium BS was coming from Mark Dayton, and amateur baseball is part of that. The NCAA Final Four plus a rare Superbowla and "convention" or special events were the sole driving force behind the roof demands the Wilf's gave in to.

If there needs to be an indoor facility for small time baseball, Mark Dayton should float a plan to throw a few million at a bubble that can cover a baseball all field and seat a couple hundred people, because almost no one watches Gopher, MIAC or HS baseball games in significant numbers.

There is no way the appeal of the Viking's stadium for the fans in the seats, or the Viking's revenue streams should be downgraded in any way to accomodate this Baseball plan. If nothing else, money should go to retractable walls and roof features.

This is all about the Vikings, indoor Basketball (NCAA) and a few other random indoor events for thousands of people.

This stadium needs to be a new and improved version of Lucas Field in Indy.
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oak_street1981 said:
Iceland12 said:
That's a very good point. Until then, I'll stick with the years of Viking lobbying where the incessantly beat the drum that a new roofed stadium wouldn't just benefit the Vikings but the state as a whole. High schools, colleges, football, soccer and yes baseball where mentioned again and again.

The Vikings were never beating the drum for a roofed stadium... The Wilf's would have been happy with an open air Foxboro style campus like Patriots have, except in Arden Hills, where they control parking and every possible revenue stream.

Any other talk of these other uses was just political window dressing, and any practical politician and power player in this process knew that.

The only actual "multipurpose" goal that anyone really cared about was the ability to host NCAA Final Fours, which is a big revenue generator for the tax base and area as whole. All that people's stadium BS was coming from Mark Dayton, and amateur baseball is part of that. The NCAA Final Four plus a rare Superbowla and "convention" or special events were the sole driving force behind the roof demands the Wilf's gave in to.

If there needs to be an indoor facility for small time baseball, Mark Dayton should float a plan to throw a few million at a bubble that can cover a baseball all field and seat a couple hundred people, because almost no one watches Gopher, MIAC or HS baseball games in significant numbers.

There is no way the appeal of the Viking's stadium for the fans in the seats, or the Viking's revenue streams should be downgraded in any way to accomodate this Baseball plan. If nothing else, money should go to retractable walls and roof features.

This is all about the Vikings, indoor Basketball (NCAA) and a few other random indoor events for thousands of people.

This stadium needs to be a new and improved version of Lucas Field in Indy.
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Don't doubt that is wasn't. Don't care about whether baseball is in there or not actually. Care even LESS about the comfort of a few Vikings fans who may or may not be affected. Just irritated with the constant lying, you're not and that's probably a much healthier approach to life. The Wilf's claim that they wanted an "open air" stadium? That was bull-bleep and everybody knew that too. It was just another "hey, WE don't want a Dome, but if YOU want one" you can pay for it negotiating tactic.

Hope you're not serious with that one.
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oak_street1981 said:
The Vikings were never beating the drum for a roofed stadium... The Wilf's would have been happy with an open air Foxboro style campus like Patriots have, except in Arden Hills, where they control parking and every possible revenue stream.
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You admit you actually fell for that BS?
 

I could care less about the Vikings and their zero super bowl victories and other then their cool name have a difficult time understanding why Minnesotans go gaga over them. They are doomed franchise who have taken attention away from the Gophers since they came. The sooner they upgrade and leave TCF the better.
 



loki said:
I could care less about the Vikings and their zero super bowl victories and other then their cool name have a difficult time understanding why Minnesotans go gaga over them. They are doomed franchise who have taken attention away from the Gophers since they came. The sooner they upgrade and leave TCF the better.
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What a miserable commentary, the team has one of the best win %'s in the NFL over their half century in existence. Gopher success is dependent on fans who share allegiance to both football teams.
 

loki said:
I could care less about the Vikings and their zero super bowl victories and other then their cool name have a difficult time understanding why Minnesotans go gaga over them. They are doomed franchise who have taken attention away from the Gophers since they came. The sooner they upgrade and leave TCF the better.
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I never understand this logic. The Vikings have very little to do with Gopher popularity. The fact we've been at best mediocre and generally kind of bad since the 60's has much more to do with it. There's enough fans around to support both.
 

pharmacygopher said:
I never understand this logic. The Vikings have very little to do with Gopher popularity. The fact we've been at best mediocre and generally kind of bad since the 60's has much more to do with it. There's enough fans around to support both.
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100% agree, especially with the number of fans that are actually fans of both, and throw in the number of fans who are fans of both Gophers and Vikings Football, you also have a large contingent number of those who are also Gopher Basketball fans. There is room for all, and the numbers are there.
 

oak_street1981 said:
Iceland12 said:
That's a very good point. Until then, I'll stick with the years of Viking lobbying where the incessantly beat the drum that a new roofed stadium wouldn't just benefit the Vikings but the state as a whole. High schools, colleges, football, soccer and yes baseball where mentioned again and again.

The Vikings were never beating the drum for a roofed stadium... The Wilf's would have been happy with an open air Foxboro style campus like Patriots have, except in Arden Hills, where they control parking and every possible revenue stream.

Any other talk of these other uses was just political window dressing, and any practical politician and power player in this process knew that.

The only actual "multipurpose" goal that anyone really cared about was the ability to host NCAA Final Fours, which is a big revenue generator for the tax base and area as whole. All that people's stadium BS was coming from Mark Dayton, and amateur baseball is part of that. The NCAA Final Four plus a rare Superbowla and "convention" or special events were the sole driving force behind the roof demands the Wilf's gave in to.

If there needs to be an indoor facility for small time baseball, Mark Dayton should float a plan to throw a few million at a bubble that can cover a baseball all field and seat a couple hundred people, because almost no one watches Gopher, MIAC or HS baseball games in significant numbers.

There is no way the appeal of the Viking's stadium for the fans in the seats, or the Viking's revenue streams should be downgraded in any way to accomodate this Baseball plan. If nothing else, money should go to retractable walls and roof features.

This is all about the Vikings, indoor Basketball (NCAA) and a few other random indoor events for thousands of people.

This stadium needs to be a new and improved version of Lucas Field in Indy.
Click to expand...

I don't think I ever saw a proposal that was outdoor. If that were the case, the Wilfs would have built a $600M stadium mostly on their own up in Arden Hills with maybe $100M and infrastructure from the state/county. No one in the legislature would have opposed that little public investment. Problem is, the Wilfs and Vikings did NOT want an open air stadium.

Anyone who believes that $500M in public money while not expecting the facility to host amateur baseball/football/softball/soccer is out of their mind. There is no way a facility with that much public support should be built without it supporting these functions. The Vikings will get the majority of their revenue from TV first, ticket sales second (which will be marginally affected by a design change to allow a slightly larger baseball area), and concessions (which won't be affected at all). The Xcel Energy center has retractable seats to accomodate other events and it is widely regarded as one of the best hockey venues in the country (that also happens to make insane amounts of money). No reason this Vikings stadium couldn't be the same.

Also, I am still extremely dubious at the 'tax base' argument from a single FF or Superbowl held there. We're talking $500M plus interest over the next 30 years. That means $1.1-1.2 billion in opportunity cost for the state. Honestly, houw much money does a Superbowl or Final Four actually bring to a city in tax revenues? I could point to any number of studies showing cities lose money on hail marys like this (Olympics included), but let's do an anecdotal exercise... 70,000 people come to town for a Superbowl, stay the entire weekend (Thursday-Sunday or Fr-Mon). 3 Nights in a $200/night hotel per couple. 3 nights with a rental car per couple at $75/day. $150/day per couple in food. $500 per couple in shopping and random entertainment. Grand total spend by all Superbowl guests: $62.125 Million. Sales tax collected (at 8% rate on all of it): $4.97M. Even if I'm low by a factor of 2x, we're talking about a MASSIVE public expense for one Superbowl (we won't get more than that due to our weather) and maybe what, 3-4 Final Fours in the next 30 years (being optimistic). Let's put that to rest...
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It ain't happenin' but...

wouldn't a better and less expensive solution have been to build a separate covered baseball stadium elsewhere? It certainly does not need more than 1,000 seats. It is no fun to watch a baseball game with 55,000 empty seats.

Is there a city or college type facility anywhere that was made for baseball as the main purpose with a couple thousand or less seats?

The sight lines and "the experience" need to be optimal for the Vikings because that is when it will be at capacity providing enjoyment or lack thereof for the most people and the principle reason the stadium is being built. The Vikings will end up paying half. I realize they also have the opportunity to benefit.

Or why couldn't it be arranged like Fenway? (with a temporary curtain outfield wall)
 

60's Guy said:
wouldn't a better and less expensive solution have been to build a separate covered baseball stadium elsewhere? It certainly does not need more than 1,000 seats. It is no fun to watch a baseball game with 55,000 empty seats.

Is there a city or college type facility anywhere that was made for baseball as the main purpose with a couple thousand or less seats?

The sight lines and "the experience" need to be optimal for the Vikings because that is when it will be at capacity providing enjoyment or lack thereof for the most people and the principle reason the stadium is being built. The Vikings will end up paying half. I realize they also have the opportunity to benefit.

Or why couldn't it be arranged like Fenway? (with a temporary curtain outfield wall)
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Maybe its not too late to make the Saints stadium an indoor stadium?
 

loki said:
I could care less about the Vikings and their zero super bowl victories and other then their cool name have a difficult time understanding why Minnesotans go gaga over them. They are doomed franchise who have taken attention away from the Gophers since they came. The sooner they upgrade and leave TCF the better.
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goldengophers said:
What a miserable commentary, the team has one of the best win %'s in the NFL over their half century in existence. Gopher success is dependent on fans who share allegiance to both football teams.
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You are somewhat correct. They are 9th ALL TIME in NFL winning percentage. Every, EVERY team ahead of them has won a Super Bowl, and so have the 7 teams behind them. They are the only one of the top 17 teams ALL TIME that has pulled this massive fail.

The love for the Vikes is far more mysterious than any I have experienced. At least you know with the Gophers that they will not threaten to leave town every 7-10 years--which the Vikings will be doing by 2024.

FYI, there are only 13 teams of the 32 that have not won a Super Bowl. Six have been around as long as or longer than the Vikes: Titans, Bills, Chargers, Lions, Cardinals, Eagles.

As we say in Minnesota: ISH.
 

highwayman said:
You are somewhat correct. They are 9th ALL TIME in NFL winning percentage. Every, EVERY team ahead of them has won a Super Bowl, and so have the 7 teams behind them. They are the only one of the top 17 teams ALL TIME that has pulled this massive fail.

The love for the Vikes is far more mysterious than any I have experienced. At least you know with the Gophers that they will not threaten to leave town every 7-10 years--which the Vikings will be doing by 2024.

FYI, there are only 13 teams of the 32 that have not won a Super Bowl. Six have been around as long as or longer than the Vikes: Titans, Bills, Chargers, Lions, Cardinals, Eagles.

As we say in Minnesota: ISH.
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What's really sad is that of those six teams, all but the Lions have at least been to a Super Bowl far more recently than the Vikings. At least they have experienced it, as has almost every team that came into the league AFTER the Vikings. For any fan under age 40, the Vikings in the SB is just a myth.

Depressing.
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
What's really sad is that of those six teams, all but the Lions have at least been to a Super Bowl far more recently than the Vikings. At least they have experienced it, as has almost every team that came into the league AFTER the Vikings. For any fan under age 40, the Vikings in the SB is just a myth.

Depressing.
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It's because they have to share the city with the Gophers.
 

How big of pu$$eys will the U be when it comes to charging rent? Let's start at a 50% revenue share.
I donated money to the construction of TCF, but it was for a Gopher football stadium, not for pro athletes to play in. Now I'm paying for a place for pro athletes to play in? F-ck that. I see no reason to fulfill my non-legally binding pledge. The gophers were treated like second class citizens for years and now I'm paying for the Queens to have a place to play. Wow.
 

RailBaronYarr said:
I don't think I ever saw a proposal that was outdoor. If that were the case, the Wilfs would have built a $600M stadium mostly on their own up in Arden Hills with maybe $100M and infrastructure from the state/county. No one in the legislature would have opposed that little public investment. Problem is, the Wilfs and Vikings did NOT want an open air stadium.
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You have an inside track to the Wilf's mind? Didn't know that.

Every roofless endeavor the Vikings wanted would have costed $1billion. Especially the Arden Hills bit (think of the cleanup/road work involved with it). The state/Ramsey County didn't want it there, so it didn't fly. MPLS, the State, and the Vikings got what they wanted with many sacrifices.

The Wilf's wanted something like the New Meadowlands MetLife stadium. Guess how much that cost to build? $1.6 billion.
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
What's really sad is that of those six teams, all but the Lions have at least been to a Super Bowl far more recently than the Vikings. At least they have experienced it, as has almost every team that came into the league AFTER the Vikings. For any fan under age 40, the Vikings in the SB is just a myth.

Depressing.
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Lions have never been to SB ever... 1957 in last NFL championship game and won. Sorry, we are one pathetic bunch. The Vikes have one NFL title in 53 years, and that was in 1969. The Lions have won 4.
 

station19 said:
Wrigley Field seems to work just fine for baseball.
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Sure works well for football too, read sarcasm, when the offenses had to go in the same direction the entire game. Nothing like having front row seats over 100 feet from the field. AWESOME FOOTBALL experience (again...read sarcasm)!
 

OddStack said:
Sure works well for football too, read sarcasm, when the offenses had to go in the same direction the entire game. Nothing like having front row seats over 100 feet from the field. AWESOME FOOTBALL experience (again...read sarcasm)!
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:)
 

kellyleeks said:
How big of pu$$eys will the U be when it comes to charging rent? Let's start at a 50% revenue share.
I donated money to the construction of TCF, but it was for a Gopher football stadium, not for pro athletes to play in. Now I'm paying for a place for pro athletes to play in? F-ck that. I see no reason to fulfill my non-legally binding pledge. The gophers were treated like second class citizens for years and now I'm paying for the Queens to have a place to play. Wow.
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If you are truly that concerned, I would have thought you would have kept up on the subject. The agreement was signed quite awhile ago.......you can look it up.
 

kellyleeks said:
How big of pu$$eys will the U be when it comes to charging rent? Let's start at a 50% revenue share.
I donated money to the construction of TCF, but it was for a Gopher football stadium, not for pro athletes to play in. Now I'm paying for a place for pro athletes to play in? F-ck that. I see no reason to fulfill my non-legally binding pledge. The gophers were treated like second class citizens for years and now I'm paying for the Queens to have a place to play. Wow.
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kelly, stay cool, my frend. There are some pretty sizeable sums of money talked about here:

http://www.foxsportswest.com/05/10/...obile_landing.html?blockID=727116&tagID=11657
 

highwayman said:
You are somewhat correct. They are 9th ALL TIME in NFL winning percentage. Every, EVERY team ahead of them has won a Super Bowl, and so have the 7 teams behind them. They are the only one of the top 17 teams ALL TIME that has pulled this massive fail.

The love for the Vikes is far more mysterious than any I have experienced. At least you know with the Gophers that they will not threaten to leave town every 7-10 years--which the Vikings will be doing by 2024.

FYI, there are only 13 teams of the 32 that have not won a Super Bowl. Six have been around as long as or longer than the Vikes: Titans, Bills, Chargers, Lions, Cardinals, Eagles.

As we say in Minnesota: ISH.
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It's not rocket science - they're competitive. They make a legitimate run into the playoffs with at least some regularity. That keeps fans interested.

I know the ultimate goal is winning the Super Bowl, but having a legitimate chance is what fans want.

If the Gopher were finishing in the top 3-4 teams in the B1G with some regularity and competitive for a B1G championship, fans would stay interested as well.

It's difficult to have a rabid fan base when you generally are not competitive to win a conference championship or making a playoff run (Vikes)
 

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