Tubby has alot of nerve

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And

What would their names be--the quality ones?
 




So

We know Hollins is point guard huh? I didnt know that. Cobbs is quality? I didnt know that.Joseph was a point guard? I thought he was shooting guard. Oh thats right. I am dense.
 

Wrong, FOT

Joseph and Hollins are combo guards, not true points, and Cobb was not "quality"—merely average.
 

USAFChief said:
Wait...what?
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I agree with the Chef. Devoe is not a quality PG.

That obviously explains why Al Nolen started at PG before Devoe selfishly and gutlessly quit on his team mid-season.
 



From the Barn said:
This team was ranked in the top 15 when Nolen was healthy. Pretty sure that is winning, and meeting or exceeding expectations. Of course, I realize you aren't interested in reality.
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Much of that was based upon two wins in P.R. vs. teams that we know now were not very good teams at that time. We then played a cupcake schedule and although winning the gimmies, certainly didn't do so in convincing fashion. This team was better with Nolen. No way were we Top 15. Regardless, in is inexcusable to only have one mediocre point guard on the team at any given time.
 



Swede said:
Much of that was based upon two wins in P.R. vs. teams that we know now were not very good teams at that time. We then played a cupcake schedule and although winning the gimmies, certainly didn't do so in convincing fashion. This team was better with Nolen. No way were we Top 15. Regardless, in is inexcusable to only have one mediocre point guard on the team at any given time.
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North Carolina will finish the year in the top 15 and likely a top 10 RPI. West Virginia will be in the tourney and easily a top 25 RPI.
 



Joseph wasn't a quality point guard, he was merely better than Nolen.
 

USAFChief said:
Joseph wasn't a quality point guard, he was merely better than Nolen.
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Touché! He should have stuck around to prove that then, instead of quitting like a whiny little 4th grader who took his ball and went home. I'd imagine a tough guy like you would advocate the former; am I correct?
 

He already had proven it. We've been through this.

Perhaps if you read for comprehension, rather than looking for the next clever namecalling opportunity, you'd be better able to keep up with the conversation.
 

USAFChief said:
He already had proven it. We've been through this.

Perhaps if you read for comprehension, rather than looking for the next clever namecalling opportunity, you'd be better able to keep up with the conversation.
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C'mon, Chef. I'm just playin' with ya. I can think of a lot worse names.

You think Devoe proved it, I don't. Neither did the head coach. It's a difference of opinion, not a comprehension issue. You should also note that never once have I asserted *why* Devoe was suspended, as many others confidently have. I have my opinions but haven't used them as fact. I've only used the fact that he was suspended and that it was obviously detrimental to the team and Devoe's standing in the eyes of said head coach.

Now that you are speaking to me again, will you please answer my burning question? It's an honest question and I cannot comprehend why you won't answer it.

When the chips are down, do you encourage your plebes to quit?
 


fryguy22 said:
Would like to know as well.
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1. I don't even know what a 'plebe' is. I think it might be a Naval Academy freshman. If that's the case, some of them do not complete their education either. I had nothing to do with Academy students at any of the service academies, but if given the chance to address them, I would encourage them to stay if they thought it was the right thing for them, leave if they had decided finishing the academy and/or serving after graduation wasn't right for them. None of the services need people that don't want to be there.

2. Assuming you mean airmen, no. Of course I didn't encourage anyone to quit when the chips were down. I encouraged each and every airman to serve honorably and to the best of their ability during the time they were enlisted in the Air Force. The vast majority did just that. Those that chose to separate at ETS I thanked for their service and wished good luck and a great life. Those that repeatedly or acutely had a difficult time living up to AF standards, I 'encouraged' to seek an alternate career...

3. I don't think the situations are similar or comparable in any way, but since you insist, in the case of Mr Joseph, he had no obligation to the UofM. He is and was free to come and go of his own free will. In this case, had I been asked, I would have encouraged him to stop doing whatever it was that got him suspended (if he did anything wrong), work out his differences with the coach, stick to his decision to enroll at the UofM, and try to convince the coach--through his play on the court--that he was the better option. Since I think he'd already clearly done that, however, I can't say that I really blame him for deciding that sacrificing half his remaining eligibility was worth giving some other situation a try. There's certainly at least some merit to the contention he let his teammates down by transferring. I'd be interested in their honest take on the situation, but doubt we'll ever have one. The twitter conversation between Cobbs/Johnson right after the MSU game was interesting, however, and at least hints that there is more than one side to the story, and the Carter transfer seems to be multilayered, too.

4. In any case, whether or not I think he should have stuck it out at the UofM isn't really related to the question of whether or not I think he should've gotten Nolen's minutes (and Nolen's treatment from the coach), which is pretty much all I've said. It isn't even really related to who's at fault for this season deteriorating. The primary problem, as has been stated elsewhere, is that Tubby has failed to recruit and retain B10-level PGs for his entire tenure at MN, forcing himself into the position of having to chose between the less talented Nolen or the somewhat-out-of-position Joseph--where he chose wrongly IMO--with the problems that ensued well known to everyone here.

5. Bottom line: blame Joseph if you wish. I think the vitriol directed at Joseph around here is misplaced and often childish, and many of the accusations baseless. That's what I've objected to, as well as voicing my opinion that Joseph at PG made the Gophers a better team. I don't know why any of that makes people so angry, but whatever.
 

Chief:

I'm surprised at your thoughtful (if not long-overdue) answer. It deserves a thoughtful reply.

USAFChief said:
1. I don't even know what a 'plebe' is. I think it might be a Naval Academy freshman. If that's the case, some of them do not complete their education either. I had nothing to do with Academy students at any of the service academies, but if given the chance to address them, I would encourage them to stay if they thought it was the right thing for them, leave if they had decided finishing the academy and/or serving after graduation wasn't right for them. None of the services need people that don't want to be there.
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Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines 'plebe' as "a freshman at a military or naval academy."

Fair enough. Your last sentence is absolutely correct.

USAFChief said:
2. Assuming you mean airmen, no. Of course I didn't encourage anyone to quit when the chips were down. I encouraged each and every airman to serve honorably and to the best of their ability during the time they were enlisted in the Air Force. The vast majority did just that. Those that chose to separate at ETS I thanked for their service and wished good luck and a great life. Those that repeatedly or acutely had a difficult time living up to AF standards, I 'encouraged' to seek an alternate career...
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I applaud your inference to what actually makes more sense, but not what I asked. I used a broader - and incorrect - definition of 'plebe' to mean someone under one's charge. I suppose it could be used that way as slang, so I'll go with that.

USAFChief said:
3. I don't think the situations are similar or comparable in any way, but since you insist, in the case of Mr Joseph, he had no obligation to the UofM. He is and was free to come and go of his own free will.
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I suppose this is technically true.

USAFChief said:
In this case, had I been asked, I would have encouraged him to stop doing whatever it was that got him suspended (if he did anything wrong), work out his differences with the coach, stick to his decision to enroll at the UofM, and try to convince the coach--through his play on the court--that he was the better option.
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This is exactly what I would have expected from you. Except that I'm sure you would probably admit in closed company that you bet sure as heck Devoe did something wrong and the qualification could rightly be removed. Tubby doesn't have a history of suspending kids for no reason.

USAFChief said:
Since I think he'd already clearly done that
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This shocks me. How many games did he play this year before he quit? Was it even as many as he was suspended for? Let's just say the suspension was for insubordination (hypothetical example). Do you think the amount of time he logged un-suspended was enough to prove himself to Tubby? What if you were in charge of him? Seriously. Think about it. You just suspended the guy - you had it with his behavior so much that you told him to take a hike and think about it for 3-4 weeks. You let him back on the team. A week later everything is peachy? I seriously doubt it. Tubby likely didn't trust Devoe. I think there is good evidence that Devoe was ignoring Tubby's instructions and playing outside the offensive scheme (insert joke here).

USAFChief said:
however, I can't say that I really blame him for deciding that sacrificing half his remaining eligibility was worth giving some other situation a try. There's certainly at least some merit to the contention he let his teammates down by transferring. I'd be interested in their honest take on the situation, but doubt we'll ever have one. The twitter conversation between Cobbs/Johnson right after the MSU game was interesting, however, and at least hints that there is more than one side to the story, and the Carter transfer seems to be multilayered, too.
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Cobbs/Johnson - not evidence. (Cobbs seemed like a tool to me. So there is some bias there.) Carter - lots of rumors, no evidence. You are big on evidence, right Chief? For the record, while I would have been disappointed, I would not have considered Devoe a quitter had he transferred at the end of last year or the end of this year.

USAFChief said:
4. In any case, whether or not I think he should have stuck it out at the UofM isn't really related to the question of whether or not I think he should've gotten Nolen's minutes (and Nolen's treatment from the coach), which is pretty much all I've said. It isn't even really related to who's at fault for this season deteriorating. The primary problem, as has been stated elsewhere, is that Tubby has failed to recruit and retain B10-level PGs for his entire tenure at MN, forcing himself into the position of having to chose between the less talented Nolen or the somewhat-out-of-position Joseph--where he chose wrongly IMO--with the problems that ensued well known to everyone here.
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Chief - you said - and I paraphrase - you do not blame Devoe one bit for quitting on the team mid-season. Your soapbox issue for weeks has been that Nolen sucks and Devoe should have been the starting PG. And since he wasn't - even with the fact that Devoe was SUSPENDED at the start of the season - you had no problem with him taking his ball and going home. You seemingly have enjoyed the fact that Nolen was hurt and Devoe's departure has left this team with no PG. I don't like that.

I seriously doubt that if the roles were reversed and Nolen had done the same thing, you would have the same view and I think that's hypocritical.

USAFChief said:
5. Bottom line: blame Joseph if you wish. I think the vitriol directed at Joseph around here is misplaced and often childish, and many of the accusations baseless. That's what I've objected to, as well as voicing my opinion that Joseph at PG made the Gophers a better team. I don't know why any of that makes people so angry, but whatever.
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I'll tell you what made me want to pick on you so much. (I'm sure most everyone else has tuned out of this 2500 word post, so I'm guessing it's just you and me at this point.) First, your foolish introduction to GopherHole. The most arrogant introduction I've ever seen here. Made me want to post a lot worse things than I have. You apologized almost immediately, which is admirable - and you didn't alter the prior posts. But the arrogance seemed to remain. You claimed to be a military man. When I think of military, I think of "fall in line." This just didn't jibe with backing a guy who just left my favorite team one injury to Al Nolen from mediocrity, err, desperation. After the tumult that was last year - and the important role that Devoe obviously had - starting or not - I just thought it absolutely absurd that he transferred mid-season and more absurd that anyone, particularly a military man, would defend him. Coaches of eras long gone would have blackballed him, and rightfully so.

Good talk!
 

I will quibble with a couple things you've attributed to me:

1. What I would 'admit' in private is what I 'admit' here...I don't know why Joseph was suspended to start the season.

2. IMO, Joseph had proven himself the better basketball player over the course of the past 2 seasons. It should have been his position to lose this year, not Nolen's. "Tubby likely didn't trust Devoe," is probably true, and IMO probably has a lot to do with the transfer, and hurt the basketball team.

3. "Your soapbox issue for weeks has been that Nolen sucks and Devoe should have been the starting PG" The second half of that assertion is true.

4. "You seemingly have enjoyed the fact that Nolen was hurt and Devoe's departure has left this team with no PG." I've said Tubby got what he asked for. That is not the same as "enjoying...Nolen was hurt."

5. I did apologize for one of my posts, regret it, and consider it closed. You, on the other hand, haven't.
 

USAFChief said:
I will quibble with a couple things you've attributed to me:

1. What I would 'admit' in private is what I 'admit' here...I don't know why Joseph was suspended to start the season.

2. IMO, Joseph had proven himself the better basketball player over the course of the past 2 seasons. It should have been his position to lose this year, not Nolen's. "Tubby likely didn't trust Devoe," is probably true, and IMO probably has a lot to do with the transfer, and hurt the basketball team.

3. "Your soapbox issue for weeks has been that Nolen sucks and Devoe should have been the starting PG" The second half of that assertion is true.

4. "You seemingly have enjoyed the fact that Nolen was hurt and Devoe's departure has left this team with no PG." I've said Tubby got what he asked for. That is not the same as "enjoying...Nolen was hurt."

5. I did apologize for one of my posts, regret it, and consider it closed. You, on the other hand, haven't.
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On what ground exactly? Scoring obviously because thats what Devoe could do.

With Nolen at starting PG Gophers had big wins and in some of these Nolen clearly stood out. Games that come to mind are vs Louisville, vs. UNC, vs Purdue and the almost comeback vs. OSU early in the big ten seasons. Nolen was huge for us in those games. Not saying Devoe didn't lead during the BTT run last year because he did come up big vs. MSU. But couldn't you say that Gophers had more big wins when Nolen was starting at PG vs Big wins when Devoe was starting at PG?
 

If this is a strategic move to motivate Hoff then this is concerning. If it is anything else its more than a little concerning imho...
 

USAFChief said:
I will quibble with a couple things you've attributed to me:
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Fair enough.

USAFChief said:
1. What I would 'admit' in private is what I 'admit' here...I don't know why Joseph was suspended to start the season.
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I think you are being stubborn. Straightforward question: Based upon what you know about Tubby, do you believe he would suspend a player for 6 games - at the start of the season, no less - if he didn't deserve it?

USAFChief said:
2. IMO, Joseph had proven himself the better basketball player over the course of the past 2 seasons. It should have been his position to lose this year, not Nolen's.
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I don't have a problem with this view. I disagree, but it's not an absurd statement. One possibility though - perhaps Devoe lost the position in pre-season practice with attitude and execution. I doubt that's what happened though. What is more likely is that Devoe was never going to start at PG, as you assert. Personally, I think this is the correct decision. You don't. That's fine.

USAFChief said:
"Tubby likely didn't trust Devoe," is probably true, and IMO probably has a lot to do with the transfer, and hurt the basketball team.
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When I say "trust," I mean trust him to listen and execute as Tubby wants him to. Don't you think there was evidence that Devoe was "rolling his eyes" at Tubby and blowing him off when he got on the court this year? If you were in charge of him, what would you think of that?

USAFChief said:
3. "Your soapbox issue for weeks has been that Nolen sucks and Devoe should have been the starting PG" The second half of that assertion is true.
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Ok. I think you've been awfully tough on Nolen, but I don't think you ever said he sucks. Corrected.

USAFChief said:
4. "You seemingly have enjoyed the fact that Nolen was hurt and Devoe's departure has left this team with no PG." I've said Tubby got what he asked for. That is not the same as "enjoying...Nolen was hurt."
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Clarification - I wasn't suggesting you enjoyed Al being injured, just the fact that his injury has made Devoe's quitting hurt badly. You seem to be enjoying this. If you are a Gopher fan, I don't know why you would enjoy this. Are you a Tubby hater?

USAFChief said:
5. I did apologize for one of my posts, regret it, and consider it closed. You, on the other hand, haven't.
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You did apologize, but the arrogance has remained at times. I also have bias that I can't shake. I know a few military people that think they walk on water. And while I appreciate their service - ever time I see a person in uniform, if it is do-able, I say "Thanks for serving." But the service is is voluntary. I don't need to kiss their feet. And I won't when they demand it. When you first arrived here at GopherHole, I immediately thought of Colonel Jessup in "A Few Good Men." I relished my role as the little twit lawyer. That said, I've seen you tame your commentary and it is appreciated - this thread's developments included. So, I'll let it drop.

So...................Kum Ba Yah

Chief - do you honestly think it is OK that Devoe quit the team mid-season when it was clear he was a very important player, would see plenty of minutes and the team really had a chance to go places with him (and others) at the front of the pack? C'mon. It was a selfish move, don't you think? Leave at the end of the year, if you are unhappy. It's not like he was playing 3 minutes a game. Right?
 

USAFChief said:
3. The twitter conversation between Cobbs/Johnson right after the MSU game was interesting, however, and at least hints that there is more than one side to the story, and the Carter transfer seems to be multilayered, too.

4. In any case, whether or not I think he should have stuck it out at the UofM isn't really related to the question of whether or not I think he should've gotten Nolen's minutes (and Nolen's treatment from the coach), which is pretty much all I've said. It isn't even really related to who's at fault for this season deteriorating. The primary problem, as has been stated elsewhere, is that Tubby has failed to recruit and retain B10-level PGs for his entire tenure at MN, forcing himself into the position of having to chose between the less talented Nolen or the somewhat-out-of-position Joseph--where he chose wrongly IMO--with the problems that ensued well known to everyone here.

5. Bottom line: blame Joseph if you wish. I think the vitriol directed at Joseph around here is misplaced and often childish, and many of the accusations baseless. That's what I've objected to, as well as voicing my opinion that Joseph at PG made the Gophers a better team. I don't know why any of that makes people so angry, but whatever.
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In reference to #3: This is the only comment you've made lately that we both can agree on. I have it on good authority that there was more to the Carter transfer (nm).

In reference to #4: Joseph should not have gotten all of Nolen's minutes LAST season. Tubby gave Joseph a golden opportunity that he took full advantage of until his massive ego got the best of him and his game. Tubby has always been hardest on Nolen, so if you want Tubby to treat Joseph "like Nolen" I suspect that Joseph would have bolted after his freshman year (like Cobb, who btw DID get treated like Nolen--and not in a good way).

And if the PG spot was "Joseph's to lose" then he lost it because Nolen is no joke when it comes to hard work, true PG skills and leadership. Tubby wanted to win this year and he knew Nolen gave him the best shot at PG. If there was a PG contest between Joseph and Nolen, it wasn't even close--Nolen by a wide margin.

There has also been talk that Joseph left because he might have been facing an academic suspension THIS SEASON pretty much making the entirety of your posts null and void. Nolen could have done a "Devoe" and made a mid-season transfer prior to his suspension but Nolen buckled down and took his punishment LIKE A MAN. The fact that Nolen continued to survive, thrive and basically carry this team on his back speaks volumes on why Devoe is sitting in Oregon right now. Nolen had outplayed Devoe at PG with a stress fracture in his foot--Devoe is not a man, he's still a boy.

I hope Devoe learned his lesson and has a great senior season at Oregon. But any further discussion about Devoe regarding the Gophers is just a waste of energy IMO. Devoe blew it, he left, it's OVER.

In reference to #5: Joseph DID NOT make the Gophers a better team THIS SEASON because the only person he cared about was himself.
 

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