Thomas Barber RS burned

[Governor Sibley]

It's the year 2016.

Most kids don't get all that better between year four and a possible year five.

You know if you have a potential starter by year 2.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

According to who? Neither you, nor me, know if he's one of the best special teams players or not. I get what you're saying though, on the surface, it seems like a bad red-shirt to burn. That said, I trust the coaches have a plan and there was a good reason they played him. I don't believe they threw him in there because they're so stupid they didn't realize they could play someone better instead, or that they were unaware of his red shirt status, do you?

Red shirt a guy and he turns into superman!

 

[die hard gopher]

According to who? Neither you, nor me, know if he's one of the best special teams players or not. I get what you're saying though, on the surface, it seems like a bad red-shirt to burn. That said, I trust the coaches have a plan and there was a good reason they played him. I don't believe they threw him in there because they're so stupid they didn't realize they could play someone better instead, or that they were unaware of his red shirt status, do you?

There is historical precedent for this not being the case with this staff.

And I'm not talking about special teams. I don't really care if he is marginally better than some other guys on special teams. That is not a good enough reason to burn his shirt. What I do know is that Polk, Rallis when healthy and Waters are all ahead of him on the depth chart at Mike and we also have a third year scholarship LB in Williams who has played before.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

This. I find it hard to believe that LB's like Everrett Williams or Blake Webber couldn't do what Barber did last game. The minuscule benefit of trotting out Barber instead of those guys on special teams is nothing close to the benefit we would get of having him as a 5th year player.

What if he leaves early to go pro & never uses a 5th year? What if he suffers a career ending injury & never uses a 5th year? What if he graduates early & quits football, never using a 5th year? What if he gets hurt as a Junior, is granted a medical red shirt. He comes back as a Senior, then gets hurt again? He loses a year of eligibility, instead of having the luxury of that red shirt. Again, I don't disagree that generally I prefer guys to red shirt, but I don't believe they put Barber in on ST without a plan. You presume you know more than the coaches do, that they're bad coaches and made a "another" mistake. I presume, they know what they're doing, even if I sometimes don't understand it.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

There is historical precedent for this not being the case with this staff.

And I'm not talking about special teams. I don't really care if he is marginally better than some other guys on special teams. That is not a good enough reason to burn his shirt. What I do know is that Polk, Rallis when healthy and Waters are all ahead of him on the depth chart at Mike and we also have a third year scholarship LB in Williams who has played before.

Not true. That's just your opinion.

 

[Kuato Lives!]

There is historical precedent for this not being the case with this staff.

And I'm not talking about special teams. I don't really care if he is marginally better than some other guys on special teams. That is not a good enough reason to burn his shirt. What I do know is that Polk, Rallis when healthy and Waters are all ahead of him on the depth chart at Mike and we also have a third year scholarship LB in Williams who has played before.

Let the staff know today at practice how upset you are over something that is a non-issue in the larger scheme of things.

 

[die hard gopher]

Not true. That's just your opinion.

Well there are certainly instances where they regret burning the shirt of a player regardless of whether they had a plan for him or not at the time they played him. There is a reason we redshirted Gary Moore last year and are trying to RS Demry this despite them both playing as true freshman.

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

Not true. That's just your opinion.

Maybe, but he knows the inside the huddle terminology, like calling the middle linebacker the "Mike", so I'm going to put more stock in his opinion.

 

[justthefacts]

It's the year 2016.

Most kids don't get all that better between year four and a possible year five.

You know if you have a potential starter by year 2.

I'm not arguing that players should redshirt by default, but this isn't really the way to look at it. It's not a matter of how much better the get between Years 4 and 5, it's about how much better they get between years 1 and 5.

It's an incredibly complex calculus, but I'm sure Claeys is not placing any weight whatsoever on what the team will look like in 2020. He just doesn't have that luxury. This is also shown in the number of JuCos in the 2016 and 2017 classes (counting Landrews as a commit.)

 

[die hard gopher]

What if he leaves early to go pro & never uses a 5th year? What if he suffers a career ending injury & never uses a 5th year? What if he graduates early & quits football, never using a 5th year? What if he gets hurt as a Junior, is granted a medical red shirt. He comes back as a Senior, then gets hurt again? He loses a year of eligibility, instead of having the luxury of that red shirt. Again, I don't disagree that generally I prefer guys to red shirt, but I don't believe they put Barber in on ST without a plan. You presume you know more than the coaches do, that they're bad coaches and made a "another" mistake. I presume, they know what they're doing, even if I sometimes don't understand it.

I certainly accept that they know more than me but that does not mean that they don't make mistakes as they have done before and it doesn't mean I can't criticize them for it or predict a future mistake. I do believe that they think they have a good reason to play him and I believe that whatever that reason is, is not good enough to justify burning his shirt. Anyways, it's more a disagreement in philosophy than myself thinking they made a sure fire "mistake."

There are plenty of programs that redshirt guys at a much higher rate than we do like Missouri and Wisconsin that do not recruit much better than us but they compete at a much higher level. I believe that their redshirting has been a big part of that and that if we redshirted at the same rates they did, we could experience better success. I'm sure they face the same dilemmas that we face when deciding to RS a player and some of the true freshman they bring in may be marginally better on special teams or in the rotation than other older guys but they show the restraint to RS most of their guys anyways. I wish our staff shared the same philosophy.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I certainly accept that they know more than me but that does not mean that they don't make mistakes as they have done before and it doesn't mean I can't criticize them for it or predict a future mistake. I do believe that they think they have a good reason to play him and I believe that whatever that reason is, is not good enough to justify burning his shirt. Anyways, it's more a disagreement in philosophy than myself thinking they made a sure fire "mistake."

There are plenty of programs that redshirt guys at a much higher rate than we do like Missouri and Wisconsin that do not recruit much better than us but they compete at a much higher level. I believe that their redshirting has been a big part of that and that if we redshirted at the same rates they did, we could experience better success. I'm sure they face the same dilemmas that we face when deciding to RS a player and some of the true freshman they bring in may be marginally better on special teams or in the rotation than other older guys but they show the restraint to RS most of their guys anyways. I wish our staff shared the same philosophy.

What are these rate differences?

I think Wisc recruits much better than us. When I look at their recruits a lot better programs are more interested in their guys than ours. I don't think that is a coincidence.

 

[minibeaver]

There are plenty of programs that redshirt guys at a much higher rate than we do like Missouri and Wisconsin that do not recruit much better than us but they compete at a much higher level. I believe that their redshirting has been a big part of that and that if we redshirted at the same rates they did, we could experience better success. I'm sure they face the same dilemmas that we face when deciding to RS a player and some of the true freshman they bring in may be marginally better on special teams or in the rotation than other older guys but they show the restraint to RS most of their guys anyways. I wish our staff shared the same philosophy.

This. We are/need to be a developmental program. We take diamonds in the rough, guys that need time to grow etc. This regime has proven they jump the gun on pullin' rs. I'm glad Claeys seems to be trying to fix that in some aspects, but with the type of player we recruit, that rs means an awful lot. I don't buy the argument of "well they would just go pro on the 5th year". Seriously we've had one guy go early in the Kill Claeys regime? Not a big enough issue to consider.

Pullin' that many shirts smells of desperation, plan B, something didn't go right.

 

[Kuato Lives!]

There are plenty of programs that redshirt guys at a much higher rate than we do like Missouri and Wisconsin that do not recruit much better than us but they compete at a much higher level. I believe that their redshirting has been a big part of that and that if we redshirted at the same rates they did, we could experience better success. I'm sure they face the same dilemmas that we face when deciding to RS a player and some of the true freshman they bring in may be marginally better on special teams or in the rotation than other older guys but they show the restraint to RS most of their guys anyways. I wish our staff shared the same philosophy.

 

[diehard]

Claeys has mentioned Barber as a standout freshman from day one of spring practice. No one paying attention is surprised to see him on the field. He has the Barber "it" factor. Just because he didn't max out the star system coming out of HS won't hold him back. Many have said he is the best of the Barber brothers and that is saying a whole lot in my book.

 

[Spoofin]

Maybe he isn't needed at LB, but is needed on special teams. You may not like it, but it is possible he discussed all the pros/cons of this with the staff and he wanted to play now. Everyone seems to be assuming the coaches are doing this at Barber's expense, but that may not be the case for many reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MaxyJR1]

I won't speak for him, but guys who aren't on the two deeps should be redshirted in my opinion. They shouldn't be playing on special teams. We have probably 25-30 guys on the team who can run down the field on kickoff coverage.

Not playing them on special teams will weaken the 3rd phase of the team. Starters run the risk of getting hurt on special teams. They are likely one more injury from Barber seeing the field anyway, plus they went to a 3-4 defense for most of the game.

Our DE's aren't very good and more LB's are seeing the field. Rallis and Coughlin are out with injury, they played a lot of special teams. Devers is out with injury.

 

[MaxyJR1]

What if he leaves early to go pro & never uses a 5th year? What if he suffers a career ending injury & never uses a 5th year? What if he graduates early & quits football, never using a 5th year? What if he gets hurt as a Junior, is granted a medical red shirt. He comes back as a Senior, then gets hurt again? He loses a year of eligibility, instead of having the luxury of that red shirt. Again, I don't disagree that generally I prefer guys to red shirt, but I don't believe they put Barber in on ST without a plan. You presume you know more than the coaches do, that they're bad coaches and made a "another" mistake. I presume, they know what they're doing, even if I sometimes don't understand it.

+1. What if he transfers because he's not playing. Maybe he plans to graduate early and told the coaches he is ok with not red-shirting.

There are so many D1 teams and legitimate routes to the NFL that red-shirting is likely happening less and less every year.

 

[MNVCGUY]

This. We are/need to be a developmental program. We take diamonds in the rough, guys that need time to grow etc. This regime has proven they jump the gun on pullin' rs. I'm glad Claeys seems to be trying to fix that in some aspects, but with the type of player we recruit, that rs means an awful lot. I don't buy the argument of "well they would just go pro on the 5th year". Seriously we've had one guy go early in the Kill Claeys regime? Not a big enough issue to consider.

Pullin' that many shirts smells of desperation, plan B, something didn't go right.

Here's the problem with recruiting a lot of under the radar, project, diamond in the rough guys...a lot of them might not pan out. Coaches are in the business of winning now because they know if they don't they more than likely won't be around to enjoy that 5th year so if they pull a redshirt it typically falls into one of these categories:

1. True Freshman is so good they can't keep them on the bench, instant impact player.
2. Players recruited in previous seasons aren't getting the job done and even if the true freshman isn't an instant star the coaches feel he is still an upgrade over the players in front of him so they play him.
3. Injuries/lack of depth force them to play a kid before they want to.

Given how early we are in the season and the fact that Barber is playing mainly just special teams I would put him in group 2 most likely. Winfield could be a group 3 type of player with all the suspensions in the secondary. Johnson and Devers would appear to fall more in the group 1 category with a bit of 2 sprinkled in as well.

Some people spend way too much time projecting the roster out 4-5 years down the line. With injuries and guys not panning out there is no real point in trying to predict exactly how things are going to play out, there are way too many unknown variables in play. Coaches look at the hand they were dealt and pick the best players (based on their detailed analysis of the player) to go out and try to get the W each week. They certainly make mistakes from time to time but in general I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who's jobs are on the line to pick the right players to play.

Perfect world, the depth and talent on the team would allow you to redshirt all your true freshman, but it is almost never the case where it works out that way.

 

[John Galt]

Sounds like Everett Williams is 5th string now.

Ha

 

[John Galt]

Some players don't want to play college football for 5 years, just look at how many o-lineman left early after last season. For all we know Barber told the staff he only wants to be on the team for 4 years max.

With the exception of Barber, every other freshman that has played so far has made sense to the casual fan and helped the team. I'll let this one play out and see how much Barber is contributing throughout the rest of the season.

 

[oldauggie]

Maybe this was said but I think Claeys is in all out "win now" mode. Barber and other freshmen will not help Claeys keep his job if they are on the bench as a red shirt. He needs to win ASAP and worry about the future later.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

If folks remember Kill went on a red shirt burning spree when he took over too.

Arguably this is as much a longer term play to free up room long term too....

 

[oleboy41]

We're down 3 DBs to suspension. Ace Rogers is gimpy and apparently Onwalu or whatever the transfer DBs name is is hurt too. Rallis is hurt and Coughlin got hurt. That is 7 LBs/DBs not to mention Lingen and Gibson. That's 9 guys hurt that play positions that typically fill ST spots and that's just the guys we know of. ST are literally 20-30% of the snaps in a game. They absolutely matter and if a guy is good enough to play then he should play. We've done this with DBs for years. Guys play a lot of ST as true frosh even if they don't get many snaps in the Base D. All of our better DBs over the years have done this.

 

[Urbandale]

Some players don't want to play college football for 5 years, just look at how many o-lineman left early after last season. For all we know Barber told the staff he only wants to be on the team for 4 years max.

With the exception of Barber, every other freshman that has played so far has made sense to the casual fan and helped the team. I'll let this one play out and see how much Barber is contributing throughout the rest of the season.

That's a really good point. Grad transfers, while not as common in football as in basketball, still happen. Look at Brian Bobek transferring to Iowa State to play football his final season. I think you'll see fewer and fewer redshirts for that very reason. Why sit a guy out for a year when he might play his last season of eligibility somewhere else?

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

Well there are certainly instances where they regret burning the shirt of a player regardless of whether they had a plan for him or not at the time they played him. There is a reason we redshirted Gary Moore last year and are trying to RS Demry this despite them both playing as true freshman.

Well sure, hindsight is 20/20 and yes, you'd red shirt everyone in a perfect world, but sometimes circumstance forces your hand. Maybe we needed Moore his Freshman year, but had the luxury of RS'ing him his Sophomore year? It still works out the same doesn't it? Croft makes a lot more sense in retrospect than it did at the time because we didn't know how badly Mitch's foot was injured. It makes sense now that we got Croft's feet wet in case he was forced into action the following week, which it sounds like was a week to week possibility for a good chunk of the season.

 

[scools12]

For me this goes to the recruiting philosophy the staff has decided to go with. You leave yourself very little room to be wrong in your evaluations and potentially hurts your depth when under the radar types don't work out.

Injuries and suspensions the reason why Barber's redshirt burned? We can disagree or debate why but the staff felt they needed him on the field now and not later.

 

[hungan1]

Claeys for whatever the reasons may be - by positions, want to play the best players now, shore up depth and cover the guys that did not pan out. For the same reason, he is recruiting more JC players his first year.

He wants to win now given the opportunity of a favorable schedule under his first full tenure. That goes hand in hand with recruiting advantages of an 8/9/10 win season, and impressing his new boss to a longer term contract.

On the one side you want players to red shirt because they become more mature in all sense of the word in their third, fourth, or fifth year. On the other hand, you'd have players with more experience the following season.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I'm not sure why both sides are getting bent out of shape. Fair to question the decision and fair to point out the injuries etc. I remember a fair amount of handwringing over the Gray situation and how he was utilized his freshman year and that was fair criticism IMO. Seems like a QB should be redshirted if humanly possible.

 

[LakerFan]

We are still on the rise as a program. IMO This last recruiting class was the best of the Claeys/Kill era and because of that we have kids that are better as freshman than some of the guys we have been developing for 2-3 years. Redshirting kids who can contribute now instead of playing them now would mean your pretty certain that we've peaked in recruiting and won't be bringing in even better kids three years from now to replace them and add to the team. The main reason you would redshirt kids would be to add size to them if they are undersized at their position. Thomas Barber is already 240 freakin pounds of nasty and fast. I think you give a kid like that shots on special teams to see if he can make plays and contribute and if he does then you start getting him reps on D. That is exactly how almost every linebacker that plays significant reps on D got onto the field.

 

[highwayman]

The only time a Freshman is truly "burned" (stupid term on it's own), is due to unplanned injuries.

If it is planned (special teams, inserted in two deeps, etc.), it is not "burned". It's called coaching.

Enough of this falderal (look it up).