This isn't going as planned

Donate To GopherHole

golfing18now said:
Big Picture: the ink isn't close to dry on the Johnson legacy. He might end up being the best coach the University has ever had or the worst. Nothing from year one, regardless of how it would have played out, should allow anyone to draw any final conclusions one way or another. We just don't have a big enough sample size.

But that shouldn't dissuade people from offering their opinions on a message board. I've liked what I've seen on the court for the most part but the record is what the record is. It will be another 4 or 5 win conference season which is probably what most of us expected. However, you would probably agree this wouldn't be good enough for too many more years. This year.....they don't have much talent on this team. That's on Ben but most of us understand the difficulty in building a complete roster in April particularly if only one player decided to come back (also on Ben to a certain extent). Maybe my biggest reservation about this year is this really just feels like a throw away year given how little they have coming back. Next year is a complete rebuild again. I hope we see some stability/core group in year three.

Last comment.....you took a similar approach (bolded above) to one of my posts awhile back on the basketball board. However on tOTB you wrote a very reasonable post recently asking for better dialogue and less insults, etc. Who is the real ecoperson?
Click to expand...
agree, if every year under ben it's a scrappy underdog team that plays hard, gives you few moments of fun, but keeps losing, Ben will need to go

I like what I'm seeing on the court in terms of better spacing, most games low turnovers, and ball movement

Defense leaves a bit to be desired, but that'll happen when you're both undersized and outclassed athletically

Zero post offense isn't great, but we have no post players

But I can see foundation of what Ben wants and now it's up to him to get players.

I think if Ben were our HC few years ago, we probably have David Roddy instead of CSU. He got Jamison battle back

Kids like that are the ones we need to keep and can win with, and just maybe, just maybe few kids not from MN :) as well that fit system, culture, and what Ben wants to do
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Nitpicking here I know, but I would argue that sure it isn't a 1 of 350+ issue, but it is a 10 of 350+ issue and we did bring back the least amount (Truly only Curry). I get that Ben can take some of the blame as he seemingly made the choice to do this large of an overhaul or wasn't able to keep the ones he did want. I truly don't believe there were many if any that were our boat that are floating any higher than we are. Utah had the second most transfers and are in the same boat as us. They are 10-16. You seem like a reasonable fan to me and fair expectations compared to some who think we should've been a final four team.
Click to expand...
Good post.

Ben appears to be a great person and shows signs of being a really good coach. This is the typical Minnesota situation however. Year 1 - a throw away for the most part. Year 2- the first sniff of your own guys but they are young and even if talented- not ready to win yet. Now in todays market you can get transfers but transfers who are good want two things : playing time to showcase their skills and a chance at winning fairly big. Playing time we can sell- the winning is a tough one. So if next year is better, but not great, the bloom is kind of off the rose already by year 3 and some fans begin to question if the coach can get it done......making it tougher to sell seats and tougher to recruit.

None of that is Ben's fault, it is just the reality of changing coaches when you are a perennial bottom half team in the conference. That's why, to me, I was shocked that we put Ben in this situation for his first coaching job. I like him. I think he has the qualities. Can he get this done? I don't know. A surprising run (NCAA berth) with the young guys and the right transfers and he is looking good. Another tough year and it becomes a problem.
 

ecoperson said:
  1. You do realize that Johnson was a new no-name coach right? No one in their right mind expected Ben to walk in on day one and get literally any player that he wanted.
  2. Do you remember that he was recruiting the portal, recruiting HS kids, and trying to hire a staff at the same time?
  3. Did you forget that 2 out of your 3 MN examples had already set their minds on their respective schools?
  4. Is it impressive in any way that Johnson had us at the top of the list for Pierre and Dunn as a first-year no-name coach without any hooks like being a former famous player or coach at the collegiate or pro level?
  5. Are you aware that much of recruiting is building relationships and couple of months doesn't allow you to catch up with coaches that have been working that recruit for a couple of years?
  6. Are you aware that Nolan Winter and other local recruits have been to nearly every home game?
  7. Do you think these relationships will help them sign when the time comes?
Click to expand...
Is Nolan the top recruit in our state ?
 





golfing18now said:
Big Picture: the ink isn't close to dry on the Johnson legacy. He might end up being the best coach the University has ever had or the worst. Nothing from year one, regardless of how it would have played out, should allow anyone to draw any final conclusions one way or another. We just don't have a big enough sample size.

Last comment.....you took a similar approach (bolded above) to one of my posts awhile back on the basketball board. However on tOTB you wrote a very reasonable post recently asking for better dialogue and less insults, etc. Who is the real ecoperson?
Click to expand...
A. I have never suggested opinions aren't valid. Only trying to offer some perspective. I am in agreement with the rest of your paragraph.

B. Did I use an insult in my reply to leib0039? I have reread it again twice and don't see it. I didn't call them names or mock them in any way. My sole reason for posting on this topic to hopefully provide a little perspective. I sincerely am worried that some posters are getting so worked up over things that are so far from their control... especially when they seemingly forgetting some important facts.

Sorry for any perceived slight... that was not my intent and I will try better next time.
 




ecoperson said:
Using Nolan as a legacy recruit. I would be VERY disappointed if Nolan goes elsewhere unless the Gophers 'cool on him!'
Click to expand...
If he goes elsewhere, it's inevitable they "cooled on him".
 

F
ecoperson said:
A. I have never suggested opinions aren't valid. Only trying to offer some perspective. I am in agreement with the rest of your paragraph.

B. Did I use an insult in my reply to leib0039? I have reread it again twice and don't see it. I didn't call them names or mock them in any way. My sole reason for posting on this topic to hopefully provide a little perspective. I sincerely am worried that some posters are getting so worked up over things that are so far from their control... especially when they seemingly forgetting some important facts.

Sorry for any perceived slight... that was not my intent and I will try better next time
Click to expand...

For the record I'm not or have been offended on this board ha. Its a message board, that's all I take it for. Sometimes it's all just therapy 🤣, we just all handle therapy differently, but we all hope the outcome is the same.
 

leib0039 said:
1. Its a part of our past/program, and furthermore, Ben was on Pitino's staff. Feels relevant that he may have picked up things good/bad from that.
2. I get it, a lot going on, but I think my issue is that its just a crutch. There were a ton of teams with new coaches, there were new assistants all over, transfers were at an all time high. I get it, year 1 we arent going to the final 4, but by the same token dont act like this is a 1 of 350+ issue, plenty of other teams are in the same boat. And yes we have done better than some, but we also have done worse than others. I think Ben is a sharp hardworking guy, I don't think we need to find 10,000 reasons it doesnt work.
3. As far as game plan, for the first 60% of the season yeah he seemed to put the pieces together very well no doubt. I said as much. When the last few weeks have been a hot mess I dont know why its suddenly a mortal sin to criticize that. As far as the media/other coaches, i could much care less what they say. What do you think Painter or Hummel or Izzo are going to say? Man that johnson he sucks, glad they are going to suck for the next 10 years! of course they arent, thats in any case in sports, every hire is a great hire, everyone is going to turn it around.
4. I guess as far as what caused the last few weeks, I think a few things. Clearly we have less talent, well we had less talent than MSU/Mich so why now are Neb/PSU handing it to us? well some its the players sure, but again I think its fair to say Johnson has not made adjustments as well as others now that they have seen our team and playing basically 6 guys a night seems to have worn the team down. Is it not fair at all to say that is on Johnson to some extent?
5. For sure its tough to say about next year, no one knows who will end up on the team let alone all the teams we will face. Heck Purdue might lose 7 guys we dont know.
6. Nope, I will never quit watching/rooting for the Gophers, as I've said I could much care less how we get there if we have 13 transfers every year, if we have 13 freshman every year, don't care, as al davis said "just win baby!"

I've said this several times, we have some very itchy posters here. Again I like Ben! As i said he seems like a sharp guy, clearly cares, seems to be a very hard worker. Those are great qualities, but its a results based profession. I think John Calipari is the scum of the earth, genuine scuz ball, but the dude wins, so it works. There were a lot of whispers that was part of the issue with Muss, he seems to rub some the wrong way and is pretty arrogant/controlling. Maybe true but if my choice was a jerk who won or a great dude who loses, well give me the jerk, i dont have to deal with them on a daily basis so... I guess if i have any more criticisms I will need to find another board, 3-11 is I guess cause for great celebration here!
Click to expand...
I appreciate the response and that you are also a diehard fan! The purpose of dialogue is to better understand one another and maybe even learn a thing or two from one another. Thank you.

1. Johnson supposedly left for Xavier because of disagreements with Pitino. I think he was on the Gopher staff because of his love for the Gophers not for any affiliation with Pitino. I think we've already seen differences in their philosophies in this weird year one.

2. I am merely pointing out some of the possible reasons behind the team's challenges. Many seem to think those are excuses... I don't believe in excuses but I do believe in giving people latitude in year one especially in a year in which the team has exceeded expectations. I just feel like Johnson is a high jumper who is in the air and has already cleared the height but suddenly the bar is being raised mid jump.

3./4. I am not suggesting that it is a sin to criticize, I am just hoping to learn more about why YOU think this is and, even better, how you feel we can resolve it. I am not a big fan of complaining without constructive and realistic suggestions for overcoming the obstacle. There are a number of reasons likely at play. These are not excuses but reasons.

Sadly, I feel that there is an infinitesimal chance that any possible corrections can be made in season. Complaining under these circumstances seems fruitless at best and like rubbing salt in a wounds at worst. There are only so many schemes and counter-schemes on the chessboard. These are dramatically reduced when you have only a few chess pieces available and most of them are only pawns. Even a grandmaster will have a hard time finding victory under these circumstances.

As for the coaches... they don't have to reach out to Ben to offer support like many of them have. They also don't have to bring him up at press conferences. But they do and have. Johnson had relationships with them when he was an assistant here and that has continued.

5. Let's hope all of the rest of the Big10 teams lose over half of their roster! Of course, that is exactly my point... one needs to factor in all of the data points before making any predictions or demands.

I like Coach Johnson as well. He does seem like a great guy. If he proves to be unsuccessful as a head coach for my team, I will have no qualms about sending him a pink slip. That said, because he is a nice guy, and started under some weird conditions, I will give him a slightly longer leash than an established coach who is a real prick.
 

So just on game plan and things I would like improved. I will preface this by saying every single stat ever has noise but they do generalize some things.

So I will start with ball movement. Many were frustrated with the hero ball of Carr and others of recent history and suggested Ben would have an offense that moved the ball more. Just eye test I thought that was the case early but has been lacking of late. To bare that out, last year we averaged .57 assists per FGM, this year that number is .49, 237th in the country. That suggests our ball movement hasn't been that great. I know Ben made the statement he didn't need a true PG, im not sure I buy that. Much the same as no PG, I hope Ben realizes you simply can't play in the B1G without big boys. Oturu types would be great but you simply cannot rely on small unathletic bigs. To back that up, we are 342nd in overall rebound rate, I don't care about your strategy, that simply can't happen.

I also thought we would be tighter on defense, we are at 1.01 ppp this year 236th in the country, last year was .99. That didn't sound huge but .99 is about 60 spots higher.

Again some of this is certainly physical limitations, but by the same token we don't seem to be drastically improving our guys.

A few quick positives, my God we can make a 3!!! After a miserable 28% last year we are at a solid 36% this year. We are still at 14 TO per game, one of the better marks in the country. Those are things as a less talented team you must do so good news there.
 



ecoperson said:
A. I have never suggested opinions aren't valid. Only trying to offer some perspective. I am in agreement with the rest of your paragraph.

B. Did I use an insult in my reply to leib0039? I have reread it again twice and don't see it. I didn't call them names or mock them in any way. My sole reason for posting on this topic to hopefully provide a little perspective. I sincerely am worried that some posters are getting so worked up over things that are so far from their control... especially when they seemingly forgetting some important facts.

Sorry for any perceived slight... that was not my intent and I will try better next time.
Click to expand...

Truthfully, my comment was more of a friendly jab than anything. Always hard to convey intent across a keyboard. I wouldn't have even brought it up if not for the fact I generally respect your posts on tOTB even though we sit on different sides of the political aisle.
 

leib0039 said:
So just on game plan and things I would like improved. I will preface this by saying every single stat ever has noise but they do generalize some things.

So I will start with ball movement. Many were frustrated with the hero ball of Carr and others of recent history and suggested Ben would have an offense that moved the ball more. Just eye test I thought that was the case early but has been lacking of late. To bare that out, last year we averaged .57 assists per FGM, this year that number is .49, 237th in the country. That suggests our ball movement hasn't been that great. I know Ben made the statement he didn't need a true PG, im not sure I buy that. Much the same as no PG, I hope Ben realizes you simply can't play in the B1G without big boys. Oturu types would be great but you simply cannot rely on small unathletic bigs. To back that up, we are 342nd in overall rebound rate, I don't care about your strategy, that simply can't happen.

I also thought we would be tighter on defense, we are at 1.01 ppp this year 236th in the country, last year was .99. That didn't sound huge but .99 is about 60 spots higher.

Again some of this is certainly physical limitations, but by the same token we don't seem to be drastically improving our guys.

A few quick positives, my God we can make a 3!!! After a miserable 28% last year we are at a solid 36% this year. We are still at 14 TO per game, one of the better marks in the country. Those are things as a less talented team you must do so good news there.
Click to expand...
Our ball movment has certainly stagnanted recently and our defensive positioning has gotten worse. I used to fight the heavy minutes theory, but I’m thinking in this case here. Maybe it’s our staff, but knowing two of them, I doubt it. I’m willing to give it a pass this season, but I’ll be pretty picky and way less patient next year on the defensive end. They need to be a top 60 team in the country.
 

leib0039 said:
So just on game plan and things I would like improved. I will preface this by saying every single stat ever has noise but they do generalize some things.

So I will start with ball movement. Many were frustrated with the hero ball of Carr and others of recent history and suggested Ben would have an offense that moved the ball more. Just eye test I thought that was the case early but has been lacking of late. To bare that out, last year we averaged .57 assists per FGM, this year that number is .49, 237th in the country. That suggests our ball movement hasn't been that great. I know Ben made the statement he didn't need a true PG, im not sure I buy that. Much the same as no PG, I hope Ben realizes you simply can't play in the B1G without big boys. Oturu types would be great but you simply cannot rely on small unathletic bigs. To back that up, we are 342nd in overall rebound rate, I don't care about your strategy, that simply can't happen.

I also thought we would be tighter on defense, we are at 1.01 ppp this year 236th in the country, last year was .99. That didn't sound huge but .99 is about 60 spots higher.

Again some of this is certainly physical limitations, but by the same token we don't seem to be drastically improving our guys.

A few quick positives, my God we can make a 3!!! After a miserable 28% last year we are at a solid 36% this year. We are still at 14 TO per game, one of the better marks in the country. Those are things as a less talented team you must do so good news there.
Click to expand...
Well said... nearly every stat can tell be used to spin different sometimes nearly opposite stories depending on how one. Thank you for looking up the A/FGM stat. During the non-conf and early in the conf season, this team put up some nice assist totals. (And fantastic A/TO ratios!)

As the defenses have tightened up and negated whatever offensive 'advantages' we might have exploited early, I have definitely seen a bit of one on one. I think this free-wheelin' approach appeared with Willis during the Rutgers game when we were short-handed and has been difficult to rein in.

I don't imagine that Ben was saying that they didn't need a pure PG but more that they would have to play without one. He's managing the psyches of a bunch of young adults so he isn't going to come out in public and highlight any deficiencies. In reality, he had no choice after all of the serviceable PGs in the portal took their talent elsewhere. I imagine that Ben knows the importance of strong lead guard play as a former player and coach in the B1G.

And I can't imagine that Ben will ever say that bigs are not important. I expect that we need a minimum of another big and pg in the portal. I will be highly concerned if we do not address these obvious deficiencies!

I was initially surprised at the defensive stat and then thought further about how the lack of bigs and rebounding lends themselves to the opposing team's efficiencies in this area. Rebounding and defense is the lifeblood of a overachieving club. Since we will likely never be a Kentucky or Kansas, the U will rely on focusing on defense. Despite the stat, this club is still more defense oriented. They have weathered scoring droughts in the past by locking down the other team.

The team's recent struggles appear to stem for just being a step slow on D or missing a little extra zip. That speaks to a team that has just physically exhausted themselves after whatever bug was floating around. I believe that strong bench play is key to success and I truly hope that we can start building that up next year.

Most players improve between seasons instead of during the season so I will be excited to see what Battle and Thompson can bring next year and hope that Ihnen and Fox can return fully recovered from injury in time for summer workouts.
 

leib0039 said:
F


For the record I'm not or have been offended on this board ha. Its a message board, that's all I take it for. Sometimes it's all just therapy 🤣, we just all handle therapy differently, but we all hope the outcome is the same.
Click to expand...
I forgot to reply to this. Good point on the therapy factor. I have a lot of stress in my work so I use sports as an attempt to unwind and relax. When posters start panicking, it takes a loss- which is already painful to me- and just makes it so much worse. I understand that others might just need to blow off steam but, as an optimist who tries to find something good in the bad, it rubs salt in my wounds!
 

golfing18now said:
Truthfully, my comment was more of a friendly jab than anything. Always hard to convey intent across a keyboard. I wouldn't have even brought it up if not for the fact I generally respect your posts on tOTB even though we sit on different sides of the political aisle.
Click to expand...
I appreciate that you reached out. I really strive to be fair and give everyone an honest shake. Believe it or not, I also try to not judge a poster by what they might have written previously in another post. I think the OTB has gotten so toxic because someone sees a moniker from the other side and immediately attacks without even opening their ears to what the poster is trying to convey.

To your credit, I do not look at your moniker and immediately get defensive waiting for an attack so thank you for being a more moderate voice in the discussion! I am aiming to post on their less than once per week. I think that I am a happier person for it!
 

I've said this before, but IMO, look to Rutgers as the model. In Pikiell's first 3 years (now in his 6th year), they went 3-15, 3-15, and 7-13 in the B1G. That's a lot of losing, but they were becoming a tough team to play, even without top-end talent. Now, you expect Rutgers to be good. They'll lose a lot next year, but the point is that it takes time to turn around a moribund program.
 

salzie said:
agree, if every year under ben it's a scrappy underdog team that plays hard, gives you few moments of fun, but keeps losing, Ben will need to go

I like what I'm seeing on the court in terms of better spacing, most games low turnovers, and ball movement

Defense leaves a bit to be desired, but that'll happen when you're both undersized and outclassed athletically

Zero post offense isn't great, but we have no post players

But I can see foundation of what Ben wants and now it's up to him to get players.

I think if Ben were our HC few years ago, we probably have David Roddy instead of CSU. He got Jamison battle back

Kids like that are the ones we need to keep and can win with, and just maybe, just maybe few kids not from MN :) as well that fit system, culture, and what Ben wants to do
Click to expand...
Roddy still has two seasons of eligibility left, with the covid year.

If he wants to play Big Ten before NBA. No idea if that's a thing for him.
 

I'm not going to attach the link, as it will probably just try to force you to subscribe, but there's a nice article in today's Dallas Morning News about Grant McCasland and how he's built N. Texas. Surprised this is his 5th season there. I get it, really different coaching in C-USA vs B1G, but some similarities I think between he and BJ. system, defense, etc. He had a lot of roster turnover after last year and has managed to pull together another solid roster and continues to win. He'll likely be on his way to a bigger job soon, especially as Mark Adams has stepped right in at Texas Tech and excelled.

Point being, I think all continue to agree it's mostly a talent and size gap currently. The coaching is there. This year, need to hit via portal. It's all been said here by others. Can rehash whether it was reasonable to expect a better injection of talent/size prior to this year, but what's the point. I do get jazzed when I watch some of the sets and ball movement, along with decent defense. Could argue it mostly gets bogged down due to the lack of the right players (size and absolutely anemic inside game/rebounding), not because of lack of coaching.
 

On the PG thing - my understanding/recollection is that Johnson said he wanted to play a system that did not depend on 1 player to do all or most of the ball-handling. as I recall it, Johnson said he wanted multiple players who could handle the ball and initiate the offense, to give the offense more flexibility.

Now, that could be a way of saying "we don't have anyone better than Willis, so he has to be the PG."

Without trying to make excuses, I do think that this season is not necessarily the model for what the Gophers will look like going forward. It will be very interesting to see what looks different starting next year when Johnson has a chance to build a roster and have "his" players out there.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
On the PG thing - my understanding/recollection is that Johnson said he wanted to play a system that did not depend on 1 player to do all or most of the ball-handling. as I recall it, Johnson said he wanted multiple players who could handle the ball and initiate the offense, to give the offense more flexibility.

Now, that could be a way of saying "we don't have anyone better than Willis, so he has to be the PG."

Without trying to make excuses, I do think that this season is not necessarily the model for what the Gophers will look like going forward. It will be very interesting to see what looks different starting next year when Johnson has a chance to build a roster and have "his" players out there.
Click to expand...
These actually all are "his" recruited players-other than Curry. Payton Willis has had the ball in his hands a ton this year and you are right, probably not much choice. Next year we will be once again relying largely on transfers as the ball handlers- assuming that is how he fills out the roster. He will have more time to complete the roster and fewer spots to fill this spring- so hopefully the quality will be better. Another 5-6 new faces yet to come.
 

bga1 said:
These actually all are "his" recruited players-other than Curry. Payton Willis has had the ball in his hands a ton this year and you are right, probably not much choice. Next year we will be once again relying largely on transfers as the ball handlers- assuming that is how he fills out the roster. He will have more time to complete the roster and fewer spots to fill this spring- so hopefully the quality will be better. Another 5-6 new faces yet to come.
Click to expand...
Ironically our offense has often retreated to the same approach take by Pitino with Carr. Get the ball in your best scorer’s hands and let him go to work, since the rest of the team isn’t on the same level.
 

bga1 said:
These actually all are "his" recruited players-other than Curry. Payton Willis has had the ball in his hands a ton this year and you are right, probably not much choice. Next year we will be once again relying largely on transfers as the ball handlers- assuming that is how he fills out the roster. He will have more time to complete the roster and fewer spots to fill this spring- so hopefully the quality will be better. Another 5-6 new faces yet to come.
Click to expand...
Technically Johnson was Curry’s lead recruiter out of HS too.
 

bc2211 said:
Ironically our offense has often retreated to the same approach take by Pitino with Carr. Get the ball in your best scorer’s hands and let him go to work, since the rest of the team isn’t on the same level.
Click to expand...
Aside from our last two games, the way we get those guys shots is so much more different. Still a lot more movement off the ball.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom