This isn't going as planned

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Bad Gopher said:
It's a good question and conversation. I think it's a bit of a paradox. On one hand, we'll take them from anywhere indeed. On the other hand, does the 1997 team do anywhere as well as they did without Thomas, Jacobson and Winter? Nope. They're right in your backyard, which is a huge advantage. In a competitve industry, if you goof up a competitive advantage, you're giving yourself no chance.

Both Monson and Pitino were cooked when the local BB community decided they weren't the best choice to coach and develop their sons. Word gets around and leaks around the country. This is a basketball-smart town and a discriminating populace.
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It's a huge advantage .... but it doesn't matter?

Monson I don't know, to be honest was before my time as a Gopher fan, but Pitino ... his best year was with Jordan Murphy from San Antonio and Nate Mason from Georgia leading the way.

But he was cooked?


It just seems so arbitrary and convenient. One year it's one way, then things change and suddenly the other way matters.
 
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Face The Facts said:
Ben has proved me wrong on how well his roster is responding to the challenges and the level of effort he's getting out of his players.
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What you're seeing is the exact same thing you see probably every year in March Madness.

Some low-major team plays in a way that the high-major team isn't used to seeing in conference, and the LM team just hits a bunch of shots and plays annoying, manic defense. They win the game.


I'm not saying it's not a valid way to play. I'm saying: if it worked doing that all season, everyone would do that.
 


MplsGopher said:
It's a huge advantage .... but it doesn't matter?

Monson I don't know, to be honest was before my time as a Gopher fan, but Pitino ... his best year was with Jordan Murphy from San Antonino and Nate Mason from Georgia leading the way.

But he was cooked?


It just seems so arbitrary and convenient. One year it's one way, then things change and suddenly the other way matters.
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He eventually ended up fully cooked.
 


As I have said before, good ball movement and tenacious defense ala Dave Thorson's De La Salle style. Not Gangnam Style LOL!



It's working well so far. With a short bench and a long season, we hope the Gophers stay healthy.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Funny, many didn't wait to trash the hire and players pulled together. Completely different situation Pitino's first year. That team was made up of players who won 21 games the year before and made the tournament.
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2 of the top 4 and 3 of the top 6 players in minutes played that year were guys that Pitino brought in in the Spring, and that's not including Mo Walker's increased contributions. Austin and Andre Hollins were of course big contributors, but so were Dre Mathieu, Joey King, and Malik Smith. Trevor Mbakwe, Rodney Williams, and Joe Coleman were all gone. There was a pretty common sentiment around the board the previous year that the 2013-14 team was going to bottom out hard if Tubby stayed for a 7th year, after uninspiring recruiting in the 2012 and 2013 classes. I don't think anyone viewed that season at the time as just riding Tubby's coattails, and the only negativity you saw was the fear that Pitino was such a superstar that he would shortly be inheriting the Louisville job from his dad, leaving poor old Minnesota lost in the wilderness again.
 

Bad Gopher said:
This is literally the plot of Fast Break.
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I don't think Ben brought in a Bernard King type talent like Gabe did, but it has that feel to it. A few are certainly on the level of Michael Warren.
 

So none of you who thought you knew better, whoever initiatally brought this thread back up after the Michigan game or people like Salzie or Gold Vision using the "crying lauging" emoji's thought to come back to this after 2 MONTHS? No apology, no...hey maybe I over reacted...seriously?

I don't care about being right, I just want this program to WIN. I've been wrong about a couple things. I thought these guys, many with one chance at high major basketball, would play hard all season for Ben Johnson. I was wrong about that. I appreciated the scrappiness I saw from this bunch earlier in the year, what we've seen over the last couple weeks has been alarming in the other direction.

We have fallen behind Marquette, Iowa State, Penn State and many other first year coaches both in on the court results and development. We've got one piece coming back in Battle. Depending on how good Fox is, we have to find 3 or 4 B1G quality starters in March...and then hope the recruiting class is good enough to provide quality bench minutes. Without some major gets this Spring, this team will be picked to finish at the bottom of the conference again.

So far we've seen a team that is poor both offensively and defensively per Ken Pom and also plays at one of the slowest tempos in all of college basketball. I could be wrong, but I don't believe any recruit that has taken an official visit to a high major elsewhere has picked Ben Johnson. Whether he wanted Watson or not, he went to Iowa State, Holloman went to Michigan State, Heide went to Purdue, Zeigler went to UT, Pierre went to Providence, and the wing that visted (blanking on name) went to Virginia. I have heard good things about the '23 class, but it's from the same people that suggested transfers would come here and Ben would clean up in '22 recruiting.

We will know a LOT more in the Spring. Absoutely have to kill the transfer market.
 



EG#9 said:
So none of you who thought you knew better, whoever initiatally brought this thread back up after the Michigan game or people like Salzie or Gold Vision using the "crying lauging" emoji's thought to come back to this after 2 MONTHS? No apology, no...hey maybe I over reacted...seriously?

I don't care about being right, I just want this program to WIN. I've been wrong about a couple things. I thought these guys, many with one chance at high major basketball, would play hard all season for Ben Johnson. I was wrong about that. I appreciated the scrappiness I saw from this bunch earlier in the year, what we've seen over the last couple weeks has been alarming in the other direction.

We have fallen behind Marquette, Iowa State, Penn State and many other first year coaches both in on the court results and development. We've got one piece coming back in Battle. Depending on how good Fox is, we have to find 3 or 4 B1G quality starters in March...and then hope the recruiting class is good enough to provide quality bench minutes. Without some major gets this Spring, this team will be picked to finish at the bottom of the conference again.

So far we've seen a team that is poor both offensively and defensively per Ken Pom and also plays at one of the slowest tempos in all of college basketball. I could be wrong, but I don't believe any recruit that has taken an official visit to a high major elsewhere has picked Ben Johnson. Whether he wanted Watson or not, he went to Iowa State, Holloman went to Michigan State, Heide went to Purdue, Zeigler went to UT, Pierre went to Providence, and the wing that visted (blanking on name) went to Virginia. I have heard good things about the '23 class, but it's from the same people that suggested transfers would come here and Ben would clean up in '22 recruiting.

We will know a LOT more in the Spring. Absoutely have to kill the transfer market.
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I don't remember anyone thinking Ben could clean up in '22 recruiting. I thought he'd keep some of the returning players (Gabe, Freeman, Tre).

I hear what you're saying and what you're worried about but for me, this entire season was about seeing how the team was set up. I like a lot of the things I've seen (spacing, more positionless basketball, set plays, etc.) and there are some things I don't like (refusal to play bench, too much dribbling at the end etc.).

You're right that we need to add a lot of talent next year but that should be expected. We switched coaches at a time where an unprecedented number of players transferred.

We'll be bringing back Battle, Fox and Ihnen. We have a FR class that, on paper, really seem to be able to offer us more in year 1 than the '22 class. But you're right, a lot of it will down to the transfers.

Honest question - - what would a successful year 2 look like for you? How many wins?
 

EG#9 said:
So none of you who thought you knew better, whoever initiatally brought this thread back up after the Michigan game or people like Salzie or Gold Vision using the "crying lauging" emoji's thought to come back to this after 2 MONTHS? No apology, no...hey maybe I over reacted...seriously?

I don't care about being right, I just want this program to WIN. I've been wrong about a couple things. I thought these guys, many with one chance at high major basketball, would play hard all season for Ben Johnson. I was wrong about that. I appreciated the scrappiness I saw from this bunch earlier in the year, what we've seen over the last couple weeks has been alarming in the other direction.

We have fallen behind Marquette, Iowa State, Penn State and many other first year coaches both in on the court results and development. We've got one piece coming back in Battle. Depending on how good Fox is, we have to find 3 or 4 B1G quality starters in March...and then hope the recruiting class is good enough to provide quality bench minutes. Without some major gets this Spring, this team will be picked to finish at the bottom of the conference again.

So far we've seen a team that is poor both offensively and defensively per Ken Pom and also plays at one of the slowest tempos in all of college basketball. I could be wrong, but I don't believe any recruit that has taken an official visit to a high major elsewhere has picked Ben Johnson. Whether he wanted Watson or not, he went to Iowa State, Holloman went to Michigan State, Heide went to Purdue, Zeigler went to UT, Pierre went to Providence, and the wing that visted (blanking on name) went to Virginia. I have heard good things about the '23 class, but it's from the same people that suggested transfers would come here and Ben would clean up in '22 recruiting.

We will know a LOT more in the Spring. Absoutely have to kill the transfer market.
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Why would I apologize?
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't remember anyone thinking Ben could clean up in '22 recruiting. I thought he'd keep some of the returning players (Gabe, Freeman, Tre).

I hear what you're saying and what you're worried about but for me, this entire season was about seeing how the team was set up. I like a lot of the things I've seen (spacing, more positionless basketball, set plays, etc.) and there are some things I don't like (refusal to play bench, too much dribbling at the end etc.).

You're right that we need to add a lot of talent next year but that should be expected. We switched coaches at a time where an unprecedented number of players transferred.

We'll be bringing back Battle, Fox and Ihnen. We have a FR class that, on paper, really seem to be able to offer us more in year 1 than the '22 class. But you're right, a lot of it will down to the transfers.

Honest question - - what would a successful year 2 look like for you? How many wins?
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For me it's about conference play, we've seen a ton of gopher teams destroy the early season and then wilt. Next year to call it a "success " I would want minimum of 8 conference wins. And on the bubble. I personally am sick of " well just 2 more years and we will be there!" I need legit improvement on the court in the record column next year. I don't remember many programs recently that had 2-3 straight years of poor play followed by an extended run of excellence under a new coach.
 




leib0039 said:
For me it's about conference play, we've seen a ton of gopher teams destroy the early season and then wilt. Next year to call it a "success " I would want minimum of 8 conference wins. And on the bubble. I personally am sick of " well just 2 more years and we will be there!" I need legit improvement on the court in the record column next year. I don't remember many programs recently that had 2-3 straight years of poor play followed by an extended run of excellence under a new coach.
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15 total wins ,6 being in conference would be ok with me,maybe 2 more depending on schedule
 

Parcival said:
Because EG has kept a 2 month long grudge like a highschool girl and wants his 'I told you so' moment. Makes me wonder if he's been happy that we keep losing games just so he can validate his pessimistic outlook on the new coach every night.
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EG is easily a top 5 college basketball poster here. Kinda knows more than most here about bball past, present and future.
 

EG#9 said:
So none of you who thought you knew better, whoever initiatally brought this thread back up after the Michigan game or people like Salzie or Gold Vision using the "crying lauging" emoji's thought to come back to this after 2 MONTHS? No apology, no...hey maybe I over reacted...seriously?
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Looked who climbed out of the bushes! What bravery! You've lain in wait seemingly for a couple of months just waiting for your opportunity to try to say "I told you so" even though you still can't see the forest for the trees!
 


ecoperson said:
Looked who climbed out of the bushes! What bravery! You've lain in wait seemingly for a couple of months just waiting for your opportunity to try to say "I told you so" even though you still can't see the forest for the trees!
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Thinks being negative makes him the Savant of St. Cloud.

When Ben has this beast into overdrive in a few years, he'll be parading around here acting like he was on board from Jump street
 

EG#9 said:
So none of you who thought you knew better, whoever initiatally brought this thread back up after the Michigan game or people like Salzie or Gold Vision using the "crying lauging" emoji's thought to come back to this after 2 MONTHS? No apology, no...hey maybe I over reacted...seriously?

I don't care about being right, I just want this program to WIN. I've been wrong about a couple things. I thought these guys, many with one chance at high major basketball, would play hard all season for Ben Johnson. I was wrong about that. I appreciated the scrappiness I saw from this bunch earlier in the year, what we've seen over the last couple weeks has been alarming in the other direction.

We have fallen behind Marquette, Iowa State, Penn State and many other first year coaches both in on the court results and development. We've got one piece coming back in Battle. Depending on how good Fox is, we have to find 3 or 4 B1G quality starters in March...and then hope the recruiting class is good enough to provide quality bench minutes. Without some major gets this Spring, this team will be picked to finish at the bottom of the conference again.

So far we've seen a team that is poor both offensively and defensively per Ken Pom and also plays at one of the slowest tempos in all of college basketball. I could be wrong, but I don't believe any recruit that has taken an official visit to a high major elsewhere has picked Ben Johnson. Whether he wanted Watson or not, he went to Iowa State, Holloman went to Michigan State, Heide went to Purdue, Zeigler went to UT, Pierre went to Providence, and the wing that visted (blanking on name) went to Virginia. I have heard good things about the '23 class, but it's from the same people that suggested transfers would come here and Ben would clean up in '22 recruiting.

We will know a LOT more in the Spring. Absoutely have to kill the transfer market.
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Wow! Who whizzed on your Wheaties? Most people would say this team has exceeded expectations if you look at the talent. In every Big Ten game they are out manned and out sized and clearly have no depth.Two of their top players sitting on the
bench all season recovering from injury. They beat a Rutgers team (with 5 quad 1 wins) without Battle and Curry. Yes they have struggled the last 2 weeks, but is that a good reason to dismiss all the good things Ben has done with this team? Who’s to say they won’t turn it around and be better the next couple of weeks? I think your just looking at the negative because you have a problem with Ben Johnson. I believe he will prove you wrong.
 

leib0039 said:
For me it's about conference play, we've seen a ton of gopher teams destroy the early season and then wilt. Next year to call it a "success " I would want minimum of 8 conference wins. And on the bubble. I personally am sick of " well just 2 more years and we will be there!" I need legit improvement on the court in the record column next year. I don't remember many programs recently that had 2-3 straight years of poor play followed by an extended run of excellence under a new coach.
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Questions:
  1. Why do you keep bringing up past coaching staffs?
  2. Does this staff warrant a little more latitude due to starting with a host of challenges that other teams didn't face? (Most notable was the choice of a first-time head coach.)
  3. Weren't fans and media alike gushing over how well this first-time head coach put together a game plan until just a couple weeks ago?
  4. Can you objectively tell us what caused the performance of the team to drop off at that time?
  5. How can you accurately expect any results for next season when we haven't seen what players are on the team?
  6. If we strike out in the transfer market, will you quit supporting the team and leave the GopherHole?
You sound absolutely miserable. If you can't see the successes in this team, I strongly suggest moving on. There is no guarantee that next year's wins will be light years ahead this year. Life just doesn't always give you what you want when you want it. This may be a slow build. Your impatience is going to give you a heart attack.
 

Another reason for needed depth next year is that we've got guys that can get up and down the floor. Fox and Ihnen are athletic bigs. If we only have a 6/7 man rotation it's going to be harder to push the pace.

Looking forward to offseason commits more than the ROS at this point. Big 10 Tournament is always fun though.
 

leib0039 said:
For me it's about conference play, we've seen a ton of gopher teams destroy the early season and then wilt. Next year to call it a "success " I would want minimum of 8 conference wins. And on the bubble. I personally am sick of " well just 2 more years and we will be there!" I need legit improvement on the court in the record column next year. I don't remember many programs recently that had 2-3 straight years of poor play followed by an extended run of excellence under a new coach.
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I don't think 8 wins is out of the question for next season. I'm with you on the February slides the last three staffs. Hopefully this staff will break the trend. We've seen this team seemingly overachieve from what all the experts said this year. Hopefully they continue to do so next year with more depth. I get it was ugly yesterday, but this team still has a legitimate shot to win 5/6 conference games not counting the BTT. A team with more depth next year would make me feel like 8 wins minimum is more than fair.
 

EG#9 said:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe any recruit that has taken an official visit to a high major elsewhere has picked Ben Johnson. Whether he wanted Watson or not, he went to Iowa State, Holloman went to Michigan State, Heide went to Purdue, Zeigler went to UT, Pierre went to Providence, and the wing that visted (blanking on name) went to Virginia. I have heard good things about the '23 class, but it's from the same people that suggested transfers would come here and Ben would clean up in '22 recruiting.
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  1. You do realize that Johnson was a new no-name coach right? No one in their right mind expected Ben to walk in on day one and get literally any player that he wanted.
  2. Do you remember that he was recruiting the portal, recruiting HS kids, and trying to hire a staff at the same time?
  3. Did you forget that 2 out of your 3 MN examples had already set their minds on their respective schools?
  4. Is it impressive in any way that Johnson had us at the top of the list for Pierre and Dunn as a first-year no-name coach without any hooks like being a former famous player or coach at the collegiate or pro level?
  5. Are you aware that much of recruiting is building relationships and couple of months doesn't allow you to catch up with coaches that have been working that recruit for a couple of years?
  6. Are you aware that Nolan Winter and other local recruits have been to nearly every home game?
  7. Do you think these relationships will help them sign when the time comes?
 

ecoperson said:
Questions:
  1. Why do you keep bringing up past coaching staffs?
  2. Does this staff warrant a little more latitude due to starting with a host of challenges that other teams didn't face? (Most notable was the choice of a first-time head coach.)
  3. Weren't fans and media alike gushing over how well this first-time head coach put together a game plan until just a couple weeks ago?
  4. Can you objectively tell us what caused the performance of the team to drop off at that time?
  5. How can you accurately expect any results for next season when we haven't seen what players are on the team?
  6. If we strike out in the transfer market, will you quit supporting the team and leave the GopherHole?
You sound absolutely miserable. If you can't see the successes in this team, I strongly suggest moving on. There is no guarantee that next year's wins will be light years ahead this year. Life just doesn't always give you what you want when you want it. This may be a slow build. Your impatience is going to give you a heart attack.
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I still am not hearing complaints about gameplans which is a good thing and a compliment to the staff imo. Currently the D1 player pool is still overstocked due to the extra covid year. The portal will be plentiful again this year and we will for sure be able to get some nice pieces. I get why some are annoyed by yesterdays performance, but this team has overachieved.
 

Parcival said:
Because EG has kept a 2 month long grudge like a highschool girl and wants his 'I told you so' moment. Makes me wonder if he's been happy that we keep losing games just so he can validate his pessimistic outlook on the new coach every night.
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Despite our losses, I am still way higher on Ben today than I was before the season started.

That said, a lot of the people annoyed by EG's "I told ya so" were taking a victory lap "I told ya so" a couple of months ago.
 

ecoperson said:
Questions:
  1. Why do you keep bringing up past coaching staffs?
  2. Does this staff warrant a little more latitude due to starting with a host of challenges that other teams didn't face? (Most notable was the choice of a first-time head coach.)
  3. Weren't fans and media alike gushing over how well this first-time head coach put together a game plan until just a couple weeks ago?
  4. Can you objectively tell us what caused the performance of the team to drop off at that time?
  5. How can you accurately expect any results for next season when we haven't seen what players are on the team?
  6. If we strike out in the transfer market, will you quit supporting the team and leave the GopherHole?
You sound absolutely miserable. If you can't see the successes in this team, I strongly suggest moving on. There is no guarantee that next year's wins will be light years ahead this year. Life just doesn't always give you what you want when you want it. This may be a slow build. Your impatience is going to give you a heart attack.
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1. Its a part of our past/program, and furthermore, Ben was on Pitino's staff. Feels relevant that he may have picked up things good/bad from that.
2. I get it, a lot going on, but I think my issue is that its just a crutch. There were a ton of teams with new coaches, there were new assistants all over, transfers were at an all time high. I get it, year 1 we arent going to the final 4, but by the same token dont act like this is a 1 of 350+ issue, plenty of other teams are in the same boat. And yes we have done better than some, but we also have done worse than others. I think Ben is a sharp hardworking guy, I don't think we need to find 10,000 reasons it doesnt work.
3. As far as game plan, for the first 60% of the season yeah he seemed to put the pieces together very well no doubt. I said as much. When the last few weeks have been a hot mess I dont know why its suddenly a mortal sin to criticize that. As far as the media/other coaches, i could much care less what they say. What do you think Painter or Hummel or Izzo are going to say? Man that johnson he sucks, glad they are going to suck for the next 10 years! of course they arent, thats in any case in sports, every hire is a great hire, everyone is going to turn it around.
4. I guess as far as what caused the last few weeks, I think a few things. Clearly we have less talent, well we had less talent than MSU/Mich so why now are Neb/PSU handing it to us? well some its the players sure, but again I think its fair to say Johnson has not made adjustments as well as others now that they have seen our team and playing basically 6 guys a night seems to have worn the team down. Is it not fair at all to say that is on Johnson to some extent?
5. For sure its tough to say about next year, no one knows who will end up on the team let alone all the teams we will face. Heck Purdue might lose 7 guys we dont know.
6. Nope, I will never quit watching/rooting for the Gophers, as I've said I could much care less how we get there if we have 13 transfers every year, if we have 13 freshman every year, don't care, as al davis said "just win baby!"

I've said this several times, we have some very itchy posters here. Again I like Ben! As i said he seems like a sharp guy, clearly cares, seems to be a very hard worker. Those are great qualities, but its a results based profession. I think John Calipari is the scum of the earth, genuine scuz ball, but the dude wins, so it works. There were a lot of whispers that was part of the issue with Muss, he seems to rub some the wrong way and is pretty arrogant/controlling. Maybe true but if my choice was a jerk who won or a great dude who loses, well give me the jerk, i dont have to deal with them on a daily basis so... I guess if i have any more criticisms I will need to find another board, 3-11 is I guess cause for great celebration here!
 

leib0039 said:
2. I get it, a lot going on, but I think my issue is that its just a crutch. There were a ton of teams with new coaches, there were new assistants all over, transfers were at an all time high. I get it, year 1 we arent going to the final 4, but by the same token dont act like this is a 1 of 350+ issue, plenty of other teams are in the same boat. And yes we have done better than some, but we also have done worse than others. I think Ben is a sharp hardworking guy, I don't think we need to find 10,000 reasons it doesnt work.
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Nitpicking here I know, but I would argue that sure it isn't a 1 of 350+ issue, but it is a 10 of 350+ issue and we did bring back the least amount (Truly only Curry). I get that Ben can take some of the blame as he seemingly made the choice to do this large of an overhaul or wasn't able to keep the ones he did want. I truly don't believe there were many if any that were our boat that are floating any higher than we are. Utah had the second most transfers and are in the same boat as us. They are 10-16. You seem like a reasonable fan to me and fair expectations compared to some who think we should've been a final four team.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Nitpicking here I know, but I would argue that sure it isn't a 1 of 350+ issue, but it is a 10 of 350+ issue and we did bring back the least amount (Truly only Curry). I get that Ben can take some of the blame as he seemingly made the choice to do this large of an overhaul or wasn't able to keep the ones he did want. I truly don't believe there were many if any that were our boat that are floating any higher than we are. Utah had the second most transfers and are in the same boat as us. They are 10-16. You seem like a reasonable fan to me and fair expectations compared to some who think we should've been a final four team.
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Ummm, NO ONE has thought that for this season. Unreasonable post.
 


ecoperson said:
Questions:
  1. Why do you keep bringing up past coaching staffs?
  2. Does this staff warrant a little more latitude due to starting with a host of challenges that other teams didn't face? (Most notable was the choice of a first-time head coach.)
  3. Weren't fans and media alike gushing over how well this first-time head coach put together a game plan until just a couple weeks ago?
  4. Can you objectively tell us what caused the performance of the team to drop off at that time?
  5. How can you accurately expect any results for next season when we haven't seen what players are on the team?
  6. If we strike out in the transfer market, will you quit supporting the team and leave the GopherHole?
You sound absolutely miserable. If you can't see the successes in this team, I strongly suggest moving on. There is no guarantee that next year's wins will be light years ahead this year. Life just doesn't always give you what you want when you want it. This may be a slow build. Your impatience is going to give you a heart attack.
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Big Picture: the ink isn't close to dry on the Johnson legacy. He might end up being the best coach the University has ever had or the worst. Nothing from year one, regardless of how it would have played out, should allow anyone to draw any final conclusions one way or another. We just don't have a big enough sample size.

But that shouldn't dissuade people from offering their opinions on a message board. I've liked what I've seen on the court for the most part but the record is what the record is. It will be another 4 or 5 win conference season which is probably what most of us expected. However, you would probably agree this wouldn't be good enough for too many more years. This year.....they don't have much talent on this team. That's on Ben but most of us understand the difficulty in building a complete roster in April particularly if only one player decided to come back (also on Ben to a certain extent). Maybe my biggest reservation about this year is this really just feels like a throw away year given how little they have coming back. Next year is a complete rebuild again. I hope we see some stability/core group in year three.

Last comment.....you took a similar approach (bolded above) to one of my posts awhile back on the basketball board. However on tOTB you wrote a very reasonable post recently asking for better dialogue and less insults, etc. Who is the real ecoperson?
 

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