This isn't going as planned

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it really is a chicken-and-egg situation.

To improve the team, you need to recruit better players.

But, in order to recruit better players, you need to show positive results.

So how do you get those positive results without bringing in better players first?

at this point, Johnson is recruiting on faith. He can't point to his track record as a head coach. All he can do is try and sell his vision for the program, and try to find players who are willing to come in on the ground floor of a rebuilding project. In the world of college hoops, where the best players only play 1 or 2 years, that is one tough sell.

To be clear - I believe 100% the U of MN had to move on from Pitino. But the combination of players transferring plus injuries has really put Johnson (and Coyle) in a very tough situation.

The program needs good news. They badly need a commitment from a quality player as a sign to other recruits.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
it really is a chicken-and-egg situation.

To improve the team, you need to recruit better players.

But, in order to recruit better players, you need to show positive results.

So how do you get those positive results without bringing in better players first?

at this point, Johnson is recruiting on faith. He can't point to his track record as a head coach. All he can do is try and sell his vision for the program, and try to find players who are willing to come in on the ground floor of a rebuilding project. In the world of college hoops, where the best players only play 1 or 2 years, that is one tough sell.

To be clear - I believe 100% the U of MN had to move on from Pitino. But the combination of players transferring plus injuries has really put Johnson (and Coyle) in a very tough situation.

The program needs good news. They badly need a commitment from a quality player as a sign to other recruits.
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The best teams mostly have guys who play 3-4 years though. That bodes well for guys who develop guys. That’s our hope imo.
 


Coaches can't control injuries, RP knows that. Optics wise, does it seem like Ben "WAITS" too long for players (specifically 2021 roster building)?

I thought I remember Richard being notorious for not waiting around, if a player wanted to sit on the offer and someone else came along, Pitino went with whoever committed first.
 


SanDiegoGopherFan said:
Coaches can't control injuries, RP knows that. Optics wise, does it seem like Ben "WAITS" too long for players (specifically 2021 roster building)?

I thought I remember Richard being notorious for not waiting around, if a player wanted to sit on the offer and someone else came along, Pitino went with whoever committed first.
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Pitino went into October and November without commitments multiple years and was heavily reliant on spring recruiting and transfers. His lack of relationship building with players and them not being interested in him was the bigger issue I think.
 

I wonder if the transfer players that weren’t from MN or former Gophers (assuming the return was a draw for them) were committing to a team they expected to have a core of returning B1G players. They must look around the locker room now at this rag tag bunch and wonder what they signed up for.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
it really is a chicken-and-egg situation.

To improve the team, you need to recruit better players.

But, in order to recruit better players, you need to show positive results.

So how do you get those positive results without bringing in better players first?
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This is the mechanism for how the top of major college football and basketball is and stays a cabal.

There is no draft.

The top in each sport, have an oligopoly every year on the best new players, who are capable of actually making a major difference.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
it really is a chicken-and-egg situation.

To improve the team, you need to recruit better players.

But, in order to recruit better players, you need to show positive results.

So how do you get those positive results without bringing in better players first?

at this point, Johnson is recruiting on faith. He can't point to his track record as a head coach. All he can do is try and sell his vision for the program, and try to find players who are willing to come in on the ground floor of a rebuilding project. In the world of college hoops, where the best players only play 1 or 2 years, that is one tough sell.

To be clear - I believe 100% the U of MN had to move on from Pitino. But the combination of players transferring plus injuries has really put Johnson (and Coyle) in a very tough situation.

The program needs good news. They badly need a commitment from a quality player as a sign to other recruits.
Click to expand...
I believe you are correct but a successful coach will be at least average in one (recruiting, coaching/managing the team) and very good in the other. If this is the case the team will gradually get better until they are a winning team.
 

manderson1984 said:
When I say top 60, I do mean nationally, not the 60th best PG. I should’ve clarified. I expect us to get a top 30 PG. we have tons of minutes to offer. Tre is a top 10 in the country PG and I want him bad, but IMO the class won’t be ruined if we get the 25th best in the country along with some others. I’m hoping for 5 freshman and expect that at least 3 are top 150. That’s a “good” first class imo. We will be adding transfers as well so I’m not worried as long as they fit what we are going to do.
As the program develops and if Ben and staff proves they develop players, they will get higher and higher recruits.
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Adding transfers?? Same quality as we got this year?? Because it will be harder to recruit next year with the absolute horrendous record this team will have...
 

But that's right... The alure or more playing time will be tough to beat. So they will all be lining up to join the squad.. Just... Like... This... Year
 

stuck_in_scony_go4_fan said:
Adding transfers?? Same quality as we got this year?? Because it will be harder to recruit next year with the absolute horrendous record this team will have...
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Well, then, how did Iowa State do it? They were 2-22 including an 0-18 record in the Big 12. Their two wins came against two SWAC schools (Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Jackson State). They picked up about 5 transfers, have a four star freshman recruit, and have two commitments for the 2022 class already.

After Pitino's horrific 2015-16 campaign, our recruits still came and he was able to get grad transfer Akeem Springs to join the team.
 



stuck_in_scony_go4_fan said:
Adding transfers?? Same quality as we got this year?? Because it will be harder to recruit next year with the absolute horrendous record this team will have...
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Records don’t tell the whole story. If the staff overachieves and players develop, kids will notice. So short minded to think transfers next year wouldn’t have interest in the B1G. Plus we added multiple transfers who are good. Battle, Lowe, and Fox seem to be nice players. Adding three of that level again plus 2022s will be good.
 

manderson1984 said:
Records don’t tell the whole story. If the staff overachieves and players develop, kids will notice. So short minded to think transfers next year wouldn’t have interest in the B1G. Plus we added multiple transfers who are good. Battle, Lowe, and Fox seem to be nice players. Adding three of that level again plus 2022s will be good.
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Records are the entire story. Not always fair, and a coaches record is the story at the end.
 

BarnBurner said:
Records are the entire story. Not always fair, and a coaches record is the story at the end.
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Not in the first year of a rebuild. Come on man. They don’t tell a 1/4 of the story. The story will be told on their first recruiting class, their adjustments and schemes offensively and defensively, and just all the new in general. Very few places put the whole story on their record.
 

manderson1984 said:
Not in the first year of a rebuild. Come on man. They don’t tell a 1/4 of the story. The story will be told on their first recruiting class, their adjustments and schemes offensively and defensively, and just all the new in general. Very few places put the whole story on their record.
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What is the number 1 reason college bb coaches are fired???
 

BarnBurner said:
What is the number 1 reason college bb coaches are fired???
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The conversation was about 2022 recruits being deterred by next years record. Of course in the long term you win or get fired, but it’s not the main story in year 1
 

manderson1984 said:
The conversation was about 2022 recruits being deterred by next years record. Of course in the long term you win or get fired, but it’s not the main story in year 1
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For many, many programs it is. Discussing how poor year 1 may be and backing it up with the usual adjectives that Mn fans have heard for decades doesn’t wash.
It is because of who Coyle hired that the talk is as it is. Hiring a different coach that had experience would significantly change things.
 

BarnBurner said:
For many, many programs it is. Discussing how poor year 1 may be and backing it up with the usual adjectives that Mn fans have heard for decades doesn’t wash.
It is because of who Coyle hired that the talk is as it is. Hiring a different coach that had experience would significantly change things.
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Not necessarily. With where our program is, the roster that was left, and recruits coming in, even experienced coaches with more clout would’ve struggled this year. It is what it is. It was going to be bad either way.

I’m not saying to totally ignore Ben’s record next year, but it shouldn’t be the main focus on our development in my opinion.
 

cjbfbp said:
Well, then, how did Iowa State do it? They were 2-22 including an 0-18 record in the Big 12. Their two wins came against two SWAC schools (Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Jackson State). They picked up about 5 transfers, have a four star freshman recruit, and have two commitments for the 2022 class already.

After Pitino's horrific 2015-16 campaign, our recruits still came and he was able to get grad transfer Akeem Springs to join the
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I know iowa states recruits havent proven anything yet, but everyone telling us they've gotten great players. I do know one thing! They got a horrendous shooter from minnesota lol
 

manderson1984 said:
Not necessarily. With where our program is, the roster that was left, and recruits coming in, even experienced coaches with more clout would’ve struggled this year. It is what it is. It was going to be bad either way.

I’m not saying to totally ignore Ben’s record next year, but it shouldn’t be the main focus on our development in my opinion.
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Other programs that change coaches are in the same boat. I have been told here Ben didn’t want most of those that left. They didn’t fit the new culture, which really can’t be defined. Other programs do care and expect wins.
Year 1. Wins would tell us the development of which you speak is happening.
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
Coaches can't control injuries, RP knows that. Optics wise, does it seem like Ben "WAITS" too long for players (specifically 2021 roster building)?

I thought I remember Richard being notorious for not waiting around, if a player wanted to sit on the offer and someone else came along, Pitino went with whoever committed first.
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We don’t have to worry about who commits first anyhow just if any mediocre mid Major or D2 player can be convinced to play in the Big Ten at Minnesota.
 

gophereric30 said:
I do know one thing! They got a horrendous shooter from minnesota lol
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Touche! I'll give you that one. I didn't say they got great players but they did pick up some reasonable quality players and they have two commits for 22 already despite having as bad of a season as one could imagine for a power conference school these days. The point was that a really bad season doesn't have to result in a program being seen as a garbage dump destination. Iowa State demonstrated that and so did our team after a dreadful 2015-2016 year.
 

cjbfbp said:
Touche! I'll give you that one. I didn't say they got great players but they did pick up some reasonable quality players and they have two commits for 22 already despite having as bad of a season as one could imagine for a power conference school these days. The point was that a really bad season doesn't have to result in a program being seen as a garbage dump destination. Iowa State demonstrated that and so did our team after a dreadful 2015-2016 year.
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Haha it's all good. I just needed to say it. I agree with what your saying!
 

Things in coaching, especially recruiting rarely go as planned. The best coaches i know miss out on nearly all their first targets but move on with quality that still fits. There has been some chatter about not being able to build a culture with guys that will be mostly here one year. It goes deeper than that. It touches everyone no matter if players are in one year, you bring in players that played before, you make sure the ones you have are part of after they leave, you show your authentic self to recruits,parents and coaches. Players you did not get sometimes come back, the ones you never get remember you. Never burn a bridge. Do i know that it will work ? Of course not but i like the people involved and how they carry themselves. I like what they stand for and how they teach.
 

manderson1984 said:
Records don’t tell the whole story. If the staff overachieves and players develop, kids will notice. So short minded to think transfers next year wouldn’t have interest in the B1G. Plus we added multiple transfers who are good. Battle, Lowe, and Fox seem to be nice players. Adding three of that level again plus 2022s will be good.
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BarnBurner said:
Records are the entire story. Not always fair, and a coaches record is the story at the end.
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Agreed, there were a few RP teams, last season was one, where if they were healthy the whole year, it was a tourney team at least...

But at the end, Coyle doesn't play .500 ball...so RP got the boot.

It the end to the decision makers, it is all about the records.
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
Agreed, there were a few RP teams, last season was one, where if they were healthy the whole year, it was a tourney team at least...

But at the end, Coyle doesn't play .500 ball...so RP got the boot.

It the end to the decision makers, it is all about the records.
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Especially when after 8 years your not even at 37 %
 



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