This isn't going as planned

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manderson1984 said:
What's very good? I used to believe so, but the way you can turn over rosters so quickly now, doesn't make it a requirement to me, but our definitions may be different of really good is. I would consider any class lead by Payne and Carrington very good. Some require Tre Holloman for it to be good, but I do not.
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How could you not include him in a “good” class?? Backyard.
 

Some guy said:
He is going to get 3 years to show hope.
If no hope is shown, no 4th year.
If hope is shown, he gets a 4th and likely 5th year.
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A clue is Lindsay Whalen is at a point where she is getting a good roster. She is in her 4th year, isn't she?

BJ has a taller order. He pretty much almost having a reconstituted team. The silver lining is that this may very well work to his advantage. He will hone his coaching skills while starting with Thorson from ground zero to put a style that may be very similar to the dynastic De La Salle HS championship team at a higher level.

We have to be patient. Then, we can fire the coaches if they really can't pull it together.
 

hungan1 said:
A clue is Lindsay Whalen is at a point where she is getting a good roster. She is in her 4th year, isn't she?

BJ has a taller order. He pretty much almost having a reconstituted team. The silver lining is that this may very well work to his advantage. He will hone his coaching skills while starting with Thorson from ground zero to put a style that may be very similar to the dynastic De La Salle HS championship team at a higher level.

We have to be patient. Then, we can fire the coaches if they really can't pull it together.
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Lindsay is a coach with a far different career path than Ben. She was a legend in women's basketball and is a first time coach with no assistant experience prior. She was able to sell the program on her name and worry about coaching later. This is not the case with Ben, he will need to prove he is a good coach first. The landscape of women's and men's college hoops is very different as well. Not to rag on your analogy lol but any comparisons to Lindsay Whalen and Ben is ridiculous. The only thing they have in common is that they are the head coach at a program they once played for.
 

BarnBurner said:
How could you not include him in a “good” class?? Backyard.
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He’s not a requirement for a good class to me. Do I want him? Of course and he should be a priority, but if we don’t get him it doesn’t “break the class” imo. Their are other point guards.
 

manderson1984 said:
He’s not a requirement for a good class to me. Do I want him? Of course and he should be a priority, but if we don’t get him it doesn’t “break the class” imo. Their are other point guards.
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As long as we get an equivalent talent, sure.
 


hungan1 said:
A clue is Lindsay Whalen is at a point where she is getting a good roster. She is in her 4th year, isn't she?

BJ has a taller order. He pretty much almost having a reconstituted team. The silver lining is that this may very well work to his advantage. He will hone his coaching skills while starting with Thorson from ground zero to put a style that may be very similar to the dynastic De La Salle HS championship team at a higher level.

We have to be patient. Then, we can fire the coaches if they really can't pull it together.
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There is zero pressure to win in women’s basketball and LW is a much bigger name than Ben.

LW is like scott Frost at Nebraska only if nobody cared about Nebraska basketball
 
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Ozzy&Ray said:
He wanted Ihnen, and he would have taken Gabe and Liam had they wanted to stay but neither of them did for reasons beyond Ben being the coach. Ben could have kept Liam by keeping his uncle, but thankfully he was looking beyond one year. Other than that, no, he didn’t try to keep other players and he’s not going to tell the media that. He was honest with players about what he needed then to work on, how he saw them fitting, etc. he was honest. I don’t know why that’s so hard for people to understand. Also, other than Liam and Gabe, obviously none of the other players were in high demand given where they ended up.
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How do you know this, as he hasn’t stated it publicly?
 

Some guy said:
There is zero pressure to win in women’s basketball and LW is a much bigger name than Ben.

LW is like Todd Frost at Nebraska only if nobody cared about Nebraska basketball
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You mean Scott Frost, but I get your point.

It's been mentioned, all variations of same thing but either one of the assistants has to be a top-recruiting assistant, or the head coach must be. Since Nebraska came up, maybe reason for hope as comparison, although some on this site have trashed Hoiberg's approach/roster turnover and of course results have been easy targets. I don't think they will be after this season as I think Huskers may exceed even current preseason projections. He now has a solid, talented roster in place, after taking the job in '19. He also has Matt Abdelmassih on staff who is nationally (not regionally) known as outstanding recruiter. Case in point is Dalano Banton surprising some by remaining in the draft. That roster spot was filled almost immediately and he's brought in major talent overall. If he/Nebraska can do it with a tradition far inferior to Minnesota, the good news is Ben Johnson and Gophers certainly should be able to.

I don't think the concerns (and hope) being expressed on recruiting are unfounded. Cul;ture, grit and all those things are admirable. Hopefully this next recruiting cycle brings some positive results. He has good bench coaches, and we'll see on the recruiting.
 

BarnBurner said:
As long as we get an equivalent talent, sure.
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And that’s where we disagree in his first class. I don’t carry that expectation day 1. For a good class, we get Payne, Carrington, and the Brown or Braumbaugh kid who are over 30 spots lower than Tre and I’ll still be happy. That being said of course I want Tre first, but getting a top 60 PG in the first class isn’t a reasonable expectation or a requirement in the build yet.
 
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manderson1984 said:
And that’s where we disagree in his first class. I don’t carry that expectation day 1. For a good class, we get Payne, Carrington, and the Brown or Braumbaugh kid who are over 30 spots lower than Tre and I’ll still be happy. That being said of course I want Tre first, but getting top 60 PGs in the first class isn’t a reasonable expectation or a requirement in the build yet.
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Oh boy. This is where we disagree.

Not having the expectation to sign a top notch PG (or any other position) in this class is an interesting view. IMO, this class must be strong in order to BJ to be successful.

This view, to me, is an example of lowered standards and expectations.
 

BarnBurner said:
Oh boy. This is where we disagree.

Not having the expectation to sign a top notch PG (or any other position) in this class is an interesting view. IMO, this class must be strong in order to BJ to be successful.

This view, to me, is an example of lowered standards and expectations.
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When I say top 60, I do mean nationally, not the 60th best PG. I should’ve clarified. I expect us to get a top 30 PG. we have tons of minutes to offer. Tre is a top 10 in the country PG and I want him bad, but IMO the class won’t be ruined if we get the 25th best in the country along with some others. I’m hoping for 5 freshman and expect that at least 3 are top 150. That’s a “good” first class imo. We will be adding transfers as well so I’m not worried as long as they fit what we are going to do.
As the program develops and if Ben and staff proves they develop players, they will get higher and higher recruits.
 

So not to get into the weeds further with how poorly I think this roster was constructed but this Ihnen injury makes it exponentially worse.

I understood the concept from Johnson, break it down to build it up. Get 1 year guys in so he can get "his guys" in here for 22 going forward. So the issue with almost no youth is we are going to be very very bad this year. Its not like we can roll out 5 FR/SO and let them get expierence. Battle/SO, TT/FR Thiam/FR is it. Playing guys like Willis, Curry, Loewe, Stephens is essentially useless. They are going to be bad this year and then will be done here. Not only are we going to be awful, we cant even really point to some guys who got exp they wouldnt otherwise get as a "positive". I fully understand some of this was bad luck injury wise, but uff Johnson is looking worse every day for how he has handled this roster. I know some dont like to hear that but it has been very poorly handled thus far.
 




leib0039 said:
So not to get into the weeds further with how poorly I think this roster was constructed but this Ihnen injury makes it exponentially worse.

I understood the concept from Johnson, break it down to build it up. Get 1 year guys in so he can get "his guys" in here for 22 going forward. So the issue with almost no youth is we are going to be very very bad this year. Its not like we can roll out 5 FR/SO and let them get expierence. Battle/SO, TT/FR Thiam/FR is it. Playing guys like Willis, Curry, Loewe, Stephens is essentially useless. They are going to be bad this year and then will be done here. Not only are we going to be awful, we cant even really point to some guys who got exp they wouldnt otherwise get as a "positive". I fully understand some of this was bad luck injury wise, but uff Johnson is looking worse every day for how he has handled this roster. I know some dont like to hear that but it has been very poorly handled thus far.
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You think he chose to have no centers and have both his 4s get season ending injuries in the summer? I get not being excited about the product for next year, but what do you think he passed up on to change things?
 

manderson1984 said:
You think he chose to have no centers and have both his 4s get season ending injuries in the summer? I get not being excited about the product for next year, but what do you think he passed up on to change things?
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Not saying that, I just think he had plan A and maybe B and that was it. Maybe Mitchell/Manley/Rebraca/TX AM guys whoever told him they were in and backed out on that but he needed to have more options ready. He knew Fox was hurt the day after he signed. At that time we had no Curry either, we have 2 (maybe 3 at this point i honestly dont know) scholarships open. To not have them filled with anything is poor planning in my eyes. I understand he tried, I need more than that, I need succeed or have another plan to succeed. I dont personally like "well hes trying hard!" That does nothing for me, I want results. As Ricky Bobby said "if you aint first your last" I dont care if all these guys love him and we get 1000 visits, if you dont seal the deal its an L. Again totally get it, injuries suck. But to sit here and say well there is nothing he could have done, i just dont believe. He has multiple open scholarships, USE THEM. We have time, FGA and the best conference in the country, he couldnt sell anyone else on that?
 

leib0039 said:
Not saying that, I just think he had plan A and maybe B and that was it. Maybe Mitchell/Manley/Rebraca/TX AM guys whoever told him they were in and backed out on that but he needed to have more options ready. He knew Fox was hurt the day after he signed. At that time we had no Curry either, we have 2 (maybe 3 at this point i honestly dont know) scholarships open. To not have them filled with anything is poor planning in my eyes. I understand he tried, I need more than that, I need succeed or have another plan to succeed. I dont personally like "well hes trying hard!" That does nothing for me, I want results. As Ricky Bobby said "if you aint first your last" I dont care if all these guys love him and we get 1000 visits, if you dont seal the deal its an L. Again totally get it, injuries suck. But to sit here and say well there is nothing he could have done, i just dont believe. He has multiple open scholarships, USE THEM. We have time, FGA and the best conference in the country, he couldnt sell anyone else on that?
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I hear you, but he also had to play catch up on 2022. He chose fixing this quick for next year and to put time and energy in the next class. I’m ok with that. I guess I didn’t see a realistic path to being a top 8 B1G team next year unless Garcia, Theo John, and many others were coming for one year. That was unlikely and we know the staff reached out so I just didn’t know what other paths their were besides how and what they worked on all spring. I also think time spent on the 2022 class is what I think should’ve happened anyways. Just sad the see the injuries hit this early and to see guys like Mitchell and Manley think they’ll get pro money when guys like Cockburn and Theo John got told their wasn’t any.
 

leib0039 said:
I fully understand some of this was bad luck injury wise, but uff Johnson is looking worse every day for how he has handled this roster. I know some dont like to hear that but it has been very poorly handled thus far.
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Waiting around for Mitchell and Manley doesn’t look great in hindsight and you could arguably say that was handled poorly, but the rest? Not sure about that. Seeing what he was doing makes sense considered he was hired in March and did not have a chance to recruit 2021s. He wants to turn over the roster quickly and put a stamp on his program with his guys. He has more patience than I do. We all want results and guessing Ben Johnson wants the same. Not sure what you wanted him to do when he has shown that he is willing to wait it out for the right fit and obviously is focusing more on 2022 and 2023 and beyond. Personally I think we’re getting to the point that he just needs bodies - but my job doesn’t depend on building this program and I don’t know the expectations his boss has for him.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
Lindsay is a coach with a far different career path than Ben. She was a legend in women's basketball and is a first time coach with no assistant experience prior. She was able to sell the program on her name and worry about coaching later. This is not the case with Ben, he will need to prove he is a good coach first. The landscape of women's and men's college hoops is very different as well. Not to rag on your analogy lol but any comparisons to Lindsay Whalen and Ben is ridiculous. The only thing they have in common is that they are the head coach at a program they once played for.
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They are both inexperienced at the starting gate as head coaching is concerned. It does not matter that one was a former pro, and the other had assistant coaching experience. They both need to prove that they can coach and win. Period.

It will take time. That's all my point was.
 

hungan1 said:
They are both inexperienced at the starting gate as head coaching is concerned. It does not matter that one was a former pro, and the other had assistant coaching experience. They both need to prove that they can coach and win. Period.

It will take time. That's all my point was.
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My point was you didn't need to compare him to Lindsay Whalen to establish that. I highly doubt anyone with no head coaching experience is going to light it up out of the gate. Lindsay at least had her women's basketball legend status to attract higher rated recruits the first couple of seasons. Ben does not have the same status in men's basketball.
 

manderson1984 said:
When I say top 60, I do mean nationally, not the 60th best PG. I should’ve clarified. I expect us to get a top 30 PG. we have tons of minutes to offer. Tre is a top 10 in the country PG and I want him bad, but IMO the class won’t be ruined if we get the 25th best in the country along with some others. I’m hoping for 5 freshman and expect that at least 3 are top 150. That’s a “good” first class imo. We will be adding transfers as well so I’m not worried as long as they fit what we are going to do.
As the program develops and if Ben and staff proves they develop players, they will get higher and higher recruits.
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That was my assumption. And yes, to me, that is lowering expectations for the coach that was supposed to recruit MN much better than the past couple decades.

Not being ruined? Not a great view to take, imo, and lowers expectations and gives Ben an easy out for fans thinking your way.
 
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Expected better from someone who learned the ropes from pitino. Wait……. A minute.
 

BarnBurner said:
That was my assumption. And yes, to me, that is lowering expectations for the coach that was supposed to recruit MN much better than the past couple decades.

Not being ruined? Not a great view to take, imo, and lowers expectations and gives Ben an easy out for fans thinking your way.
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I hear you on that but if we get the two I mentioned we already have improved on MN recruiting. I’m more interested in getting guys that fit and want to be here and then seeing if this staff can develop them. I don’t want to tie this class to one recruit.
 

manderson1984 said:
I hear you on that but if we get the two I mentioned we already have improved on MN recruiting. I’m more interested in getting guys that fit and want to be here and then seeing if this staff can develop them. I don’t want to tie this class to one recruit.
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Yeah, it's such a deep MN class too. Lot of talented options.
 

BarnBurner said:
That was my assumption. And yes, to me, that is lowering expectations for the coach that was supposed to recruit MN much better than the past couple decades.

Not being ruined? Not a great view to take, imo, and lowers expectations and gives Ben an easy out for fans thinking your way.
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Lowering expectations by landing a top 60 national recruit? Tre himself is rated around 70-80.
 

leib0039 said:
So not to get into the weeds further with how poorly I think this roster was constructed but this Ihnen injury makes it exponentially worse.

I understood the concept from Johnson, break it down to build it up. Get 1 year guys in so he can get "his guys" in here for 22 going forward. So the issue with almost no youth is we are going to be very very bad this year. Its not like we can roll out 5 FR/SO and let them get expierence. Battle/SO, TT/FR Thiam/FR is it. Playing guys like Willis, Curry, Loewe, Stephens is essentially useless. They are going to be bad this year and then will be done here. Not only are we going to be awful, we cant even really point to some guys who got exp they wouldnt otherwise get as a "positive". I fully understand some of this was bad luck injury wise, but uff Johnson is looking worse every day for how he has handled this roster. I know some dont like to hear that but it has been very poorly handled thus far.
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Yeah, he should've gone after more and better players. I wonder why he didn't, it seems so obvious. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.
 



The Big10 Network just showed the Gophers 97 team victory over Indiana at Bloomington. Man that team was good. One day I hope to see one of Ben Johnson's teams reach that level of excellence.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
My point was you didn't need to compare him to Lindsay Whalen to establish that. I highly doubt anyone with no head coaching experience is going to light it up out of the gate. Lindsay at least had her women's basketball legend status to attract higher rated recruits the first couple of seasons. Ben does not have the same status in men's basketball.
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He is going to make a fire without a fire starter. Welcome to "Survivor" Gopher style.
 

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