Things will be worse next year

[Art Vandelay]

Eric Decker 2 star recruit not nationally ranked.
Brandon Green 4 star recruit 39th national ranking

I realize Decker has over achieved and is a very good receiver, but Green is actually viewed as having more upside and talent. So to say he is average at best is laughable. The fact of the matter is also Weber throws every pass to Decker not letting you see what the other receivers are capable of.

You totally contradict yourself in your post. First you say that Decker was a 2* and overachieved (i.e. stars mean nothing) then you say Green is a 4* with "talent and upside" and therefore will produce simply because he was a 4*. How about David Pittman and Hayo Carpenter? How many stars were they? Right now, Brandon Green is very average. If you think otherwise then please give me a drink of what you're drinking. He will need to step up next year.

 

[bankonit]

no contradiction, Decker 2 star and overachieved meaning he achieved more than 2 stars normally achieve and played way above his talent level. Stars are normally a good indication of talent. As for Pittman and Hayo, Pittman has been severely hampered by injury and he was a 4star QB not WR, Hayo is only a couple games into his Gopher career. Both Pittman and Hayo are supremely talented players.

 

[Art Vandelay]

no contradiction, Decker 2 star and overachieved meaning he achieved more than 2 stars normally achieve and played way above his talent level. Stars are normally a good indication of talent. As for Pittman and Hayo, Pittman has been severely hampered by injury and he was a 4star QB not WR, Hayo is only a couple games into his Gopher career. Both Pittman and Hayo are supremely talented players.

Pittman is listed as a WR on the roster. He was injured LAST season. He is now a Sr. meaning his is almost 4 years removed from high school football yet is nothing more than a warm body during practice. Please quit making excuses for him. If he was "supremely" talented, he would contributing SOMETHING by now.

Carpenter is 3 years removed form high school so he's not a your typical Freshman so don't gimme this "he's only a couple games into his Gopher career" excuse. He's already 25% done with his Gopher career. Again, if he is so "supremely" talented he would be contributing, especially given the current WR corp but he is also nothing but a warm body for practice.

 

[Maroon]

Art, you're also implying that no one will improve between this season and next season. I understand that you've been a "downtrodden" Gopher fan for a long time, but come on. The playing of "My Heart Bleeds For You" needs to stop.

Well, what reason is there for optimism that you see? What gives you hope for the future? I see a lot of people in this thread talking about how the seniors are all mediocre or terrible or whatever, but if they're so bad, how come they haven't been replaced by some of Brewster's recruits? It's not like sophomores and even some freshmen don't play in big-time programs all over the country. I don't think you can have it both ways here.

 

[MBAGuy]

Well, what reason is there for optimism that you see? What gives you hope for the future? I see a lot of people in this thread talking about how the seniors are all mediocre or terrible or whatever, but if they're so bad, how come they haven't been replaced by some of Brewster's recruits? It's not like sophomores and even some freshmen don't play in big-time programs all over the country. I don't think you can have it both ways here.

And we have plenty of freshman and sophomores playing in our program, all of whom have had some pretty significant time. And this is just off the top of my head:

Brandon Green - So.
Troy Stoudamire - So.
Kevin Whaley - RFr.
Michael Carter - Fr.
Bryant Allen - Fr.
Marqueis Gray - Fr.
Deleon Eskridge - So.
Tim Dandridge - So.
Mike Rallis - So.
Gary Tinsley - So.
Eric Lair - So.
DL Wilhite - RFr.
Brandon Kirksey - So.
Anthony Jacobs - So.
Keanon Cooper - RFr.

Most of them don't start because they need more time in the weight room to play the full 60 minutes. Don't confuse that with the fact they're not talented enough to take over the starting job. They key is to maximize these guys so they can perform at their best when they're juniors and seniors.

 

[Maroon]

And we have plenty of freshman and sophomores playing in our program, all of whom have had some pretty significant time. And this is just off the top of my head:

Brandon Green - So.
Troy Stoudamire - So.
Kevin Whaley - RFr.
Michael Carter - Fr.
Bryant Allen - Fr.
Marqueis Gray - Fr.
Deleon Eskridge - So.
Tim Dandridge - So.
Mike Rallis - So.
Gary Tinsley - So.
Eric Lair - So.
DL Wilhite - RFr.
Brandon Kirksey - So.
Anthony Jacobs - So.
Keanon Cooper - RFr.

Most of them don't start because they need more time in the weight room to play the full 60 minutes. Don't confuse that with the fact they're not talented enough to take over the starting job. They key is to maximize these guys so they can perform at their best when they're juniors and seniors.

Well, I get that, but I would still say you can't have it both ways. Maybe you haven't said most of these seniors are bad and not anything to worry about losing. I don't know. But a lot have. And for those that have said that, I just wonder how they can also be excited about a bunch of recruits that can't beat out these senior slouches. Lack of time in the weight room or not.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Well, I get that, but I would still say you can't have it both ways. Maybe you haven't said most of these seniors are bad and not anything to worry about losing. I don't know. But a lot have. And for those that have said that, I just wonder how they can also be excited about a bunch of recruits that can't beat out these senior slouches. Lack of time in the weight room or not.

+1

 

[RedPoo]

Well, I get that, but I would still say you can't have it both ways. Maybe you haven't said most of these seniors are bad and not anything to worry about losing. I don't know. But a lot have. And for those that have said that, I just wonder how they can also be excited about a bunch of recruits that can't beat out these senior slouches. Lack of time in the weight room or not.

Look at the rosters of any good college football team. Look at how many of them are seniors, juniors, then sophmores and freshman. You'll see, as you already know, that most of them are jrs and srs...and not just slightly more. A lot more.
Contrary to rumor, this is not because an especially large number of good football players were born in 1987. These players improve, a lot, over a short period of time. They just got done with puberty, for chrissake. The freshmen and sophomores who are getting some playing time now, while perhaps not as game-ready as the senior starters, could and by all accounts should improve greatly between this year and next year.

 

[frozengopher]

You totally contradict yourself in your post. First you say that Decker was a 2* and overachieved (i.e. stars mean nothing) then you say Green is a 4* with "talent and upside" and therefore will produce simply because he was a 4*. How about David Pittman and Hayo Carpenter? How many stars were they? Right now, Brandon Green is very average. If you think otherwise then please give me a drink of what you're drinking. He will need to step up next year.

Reading a post by Art is enough to make me want a spinal tap. Green has proven to be more than average when he's gotten looks. He's had a fair share of clutch receptions this year, and this is with an inaccurate qb who keys in on one guy most of the game. Also, please use more judgment when comparing players. It would behoove you to compare Green to other highly rated players on the roster who are his age, not two junior college athletes who played community college football up to this point and are struggling to adjust. Green has been very, very competent from that standpoint.

Well, what reason is there for optimism that you see? What gives you hope for the future? I see a lot of people in this thread talking about how the seniors are all mediocre or terrible or whatever, but if they're so bad, how come they haven't been replaced by some of Brewster's recruits? It's not like sophomores and even some freshmen don't play in big-time programs all over the country. I don't think you can have it both ways here.

What is the reason for your shameless pessimism? We're still in bowl contention, and can quite possibly get a decent one if a few plays go our way. Why throw in freshmen and sophomores with no crunch time experience when you have a group of older players who have played tough BT games to the wire who are equally competent? I never said the seniors were bad, either, so I don't know why I'm being quoted here. Go back to your Vikings message board.

 

[Gophers507]

It's nice you included a picture of your girlfriend at the end of your post

ouch...I even felt that one...ok ok lets be good fans and play nice...

 

[Maroon]

What is the reason for your shameless pessimism? We're still in bowl contention, and can quite possibly get a decent one if a few plays go our way. Why throw in freshmen and sophomores with no crunch time experience when you have a group of older players who have played tough BT games to the wire who are equally competent? I never said the seniors were bad, either, so I don't know why I'm being quoted here. Go back to your Vikings message board.

What shameless pessimism? I asked you a question. I asked you what excites you about the future of the program. Not only did you not answer that, but then you were a complete d-bag in attacking me for no reason whatsoever.

 

[Art Vandelay]

What shameless pessimism? I asked you a question. I asked you what excites you about the future of the program. Not only did you not answer that, but then you were a complete d-bag in attacking me for no reason whatsoever.

Box.

 

[Pewterschmidt]

What excites me about the future is watching the underclassman progress. I just have reasonable expectations about what the team will look like next year. Replacing the dozen starting seniors won't be easy. Some will step up. Others won't. The depth next year will be glaring as those providing the depth this year will be starting. I see 2011 being more of a promising season than 2010. Schedule becomes a slightly easier while the team will be much more experienced.

 

[bailee88]

Why so bitter Pewter and Art? I don't understand why you would be a fan of a team that you seem to despise so much. It is also interesting that Maroon shows up just in time to support your sky is falling point of view.
I am excited about the new stadium, the good young players we have on the roster and the good young recruits we have coming in next year. I am excited to be a gopher fan because they are my team through thick and thin. I am excited about the enthusiasm and positive attitude of Brewster and his staff.

 

[MBAGuy]

I asked you a question. I asked you what excites you about the future of the program.

If you looked around the board, this question is answered ad nauseum, but I'll humor you:

1. The talent in the program is the best it's been in my lifetime.
2. Player development appears to be good. Tripplet and Campbell have an outside chance at 3rd Team or HM All Big Ten, and neither of them played at their current positions until this year and last year, respectively. Brown and Small are servicable DTs, and Decker's development is too obvious to require elaboration. And, as I stated earlier, a number of underclassmen are making significant contributions early in their tenure
3. Combining one and two, with more raw talent in the So., RFr., and Fr. classes, if the same developmental trajectory is followed for the current upperclassment, it's not a stretch to believe their overall ability ceiling will be higher and, thus, on-field performance will improve relative to today's performance.
4. The stadium is awesome and we actually have a home field advantage again.
5. Brewster has unquestionably dedicated himself 100% to building this program. He may not ultimately be the guy, but it won't be due to indifference or lack of effort.
6. We've beaten the teams we should have beaten and, with the exception of last week, kept things fairly competitive. That hasn't always been the case over the last 20 years with this squad.
7. We're still in bowl contention. If the defense holds up and there's even marginal improvement by the offense, we're on track to finish 7-5, which, given the schedule, is fairly impressive.

I need to get to work, so I'll leave it at that. Hopefully that's enough to answer your question and to not lash back with defensive name calling. I'd be happy to expand on this list after work, should it become necessary.

 

[gopher pops]

I don't disagree about next year...I'd guess a season very similar to this one, with a few athletes keeping us in games, but by-and-large getting thoroughly beaten by the better teams...though for Brewster's sake, and our own, I hope we can at least win one trophy game. Within one game of 7-5, in either direction.

In 2 years, though, I expect a dramatic change. I expect a trophy if not two, a win against at least one of these teams: USC, OSU, Penn State or what should be a very good Michigan team. I expect to be ranked at the end of the season, and I wouldn't be surprised if we have a shot at the Big Ten title (though I wouldn't count on it).

thoroughly beaten by who??? tied with no 6 cal with 4 minutes to go in the 4th quarter........ down to Wisconsin by three with two minutes and the ball..... and against 17 pen the defense only gives up thirteen( the other 7 on a phantom touch down) with two and should have been three stops in the red zone.... two of our three losses has been against ranked teams..one of those teams we had a legitimate shot to win in the 4th quarter.......one play away from being 4 and 3 to 6 and 1 and one play away from being either second or third in conference play.... you call that thoroughly getting beat..... there is no such thing as moral victory close only counts in horseshoes at the end of the season there is one winner and 217 losers..... however there is a way to judge progress... and the one thing that i notice is opposing teams can not see Minnesota on their scheduel and pencil in an automatic win no matter what ranking they bring to the game with them.....

 

[Maroon]

Why so bitter Pewter and Art? I don't understand why you would be a fan of a team that you seem to despise so much. It is also interesting that Maroon shows up just in time to support your sky is falling point of view.
I am excited about the new stadium, the good young players we have on the roster and the good young recruits we have coming in next year. I am excited to be a gopher fan because they are my team through thick and thin. I am excited about the enthusiasm and positive attitude of Brewster and his staff.

I'm not supporting anyone's point of view. And I find it interesting that you're apparently looking for some sort of conspiracy here. All that I've done is point out what seems to be a contradiction to me. That there are a lot of people talking about how all these senior starters aren't very good and won't be missed while at the same time talking about how great these underclassmen that are sitting on the bench behind them are obviously going to be so much better. As if that's a fact that cannot even be debated.

 

[scools12]

Well, I get that, but I would still say you can't have it both ways. Maybe you haven't said most of these seniors are bad and not anything to worry about losing. I don't know. But a lot have. And for those that have said that, I just wonder how they can also be excited about a bunch of recruits that can't beat out these senior slouches. Lack of time in the weight room or not.

i am just guessing here but I would imagine the reason for the seniors playing and not the underclassmen is that when brewster got here the overall talent level was rather low and the program needed to build some depth. I think that is what he is doing. I belieive this has nothing to do with the seniors regradless which players have the more talent but this is about building a program. quality depth can and will go along ways. as the program moves along under brewster we will see if his plan is working or not but that probably can't be judged for a couple of more seasons.

 

[Maroon]

I need to get to work, so I'll leave it at that. Hopefully that's enough to answer your question and to not lash back with defensive name calling. I'd be happy to expand on this list after work, should it become necessary.

You're suggesting I'm the one getting defensive here? The guy who asked another guy what excites him about the program and was told to go take his shameless pessimism to the Vikings message board? OK.

 

[MBAGuy]

You're suggesting I'm the one getting defensive here? The guy who asked another guy what excites him about the program and was told to go take his shameless pessimism to the Vikings message board? OK.

but then you were a complete d-bag in attacking me for no reason whatsoever

That response is the very definition of defensive.

Way to respond to the content of my message. Keep up the great work.

 

[Maroon]

That response is the very definition of defensive.

Way to respond to the content of my message. Keep up the great work.

You're right, I did lower myself to frozen gopher's level. I didn't see you calling him out for that, though.

And I didn't know I needed to respond to the content of your message. You answered my question on why you were excited. I didn't know that required further response from me. But thanks for taking it down another level with your "keep up the great work" reference. You, too, buddy.

 

[MBAGuy]

You're right, I did lower myself to frozen gopher's level. I didn't see you calling him out for that, though.

And I didn't know I needed to respond to the content of your message. You answered my question on why you were excited. I didn't know that required further response from me. But thanks for taking it down another level with your "keep up the great work" reference. You, too, buddy.

Sorry. I should not have included that last snipe in there. My apologies.

Since you asked a couple of times for people to respond with their reasons for their optimism, when I did, I assumed you'd respond with a positive or negative reaction. If you were just looking for thoughts and not a discussion on the merits of those thoughts, I can live with that.

 

[Schnauzer]

I am looking forward to next season. Reason: I think the team will be better.

I expect a similar record but the following two years should be extra special.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

What excites me about the future is watching the underclassman progress. I just have reasonable expectations about what the team will look like next year. Replacing the dozen starting seniors won't be easy. Some will step up. Others won't. The depth next year will be glaring as those providing the depth this year will be starting. I see 2011 being more of a promising season than 2010. Schedule becomes a slightly easier while the team will be much more experienced.

Yep. Problem is that I have been looking ahead two years for a long, long time and the program still struggles.

 

[Pewterschmidt]

I'm not bitter at all. I just saw enough Kool-Aid drinkers try to control the flow of information on this board after the game by bashing anyone and everyone with a single complaint that I had to add my 2 cents. I consider myself a rational poster and by putting out there rational thoughts up against the blinded Kool-Aid drinkers it can help expose them for what they are...irrational, follow-the-leader types.

The sky isn't falling but all is not well. We're currently a medicore team with most of the important cogs in the wheel being seniors while the lack of player development at key positions is glaring. I consider Decker, Tow-Arnett, Lawrence, Tripplett, Campbell, and Brown to be 6 of the most irreplaceable parts while there's very little evidence at this point that the underclassman behind them and the other seniors on the squad will be their equals or better next year. Also, who will replace the depth that those players supposedly supply? If Cooper, Tinsley, Reeves, and Maresh are the main LBs, who backs them up if an injury occurs? Also, assuming that they'll capably replace the seniors right away is wishful thinking. There will always be growing pains. Last week, the Gophers started 9 seniors on defense and I could argue that the 2 starters who weren't seniors were the weakest of the links. I understand most of the seniors aren't all-americans but again I ask the question...if the talent behind them were truly better, why aren't they starting? Only Cooper, Kirksey, Carter and Jacobs see more than spot duty as backups and I could argue that only Cooper has truly shown his stuff while the others have hardly shown they're an equal, much less an improvement. We're going to have a handful of starters next year with little to no experience along with almost every backup with zero experience. Place that against the schedule next year and expecting an improved team is purely wishful thinking based on fairy dust and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow...and I'm not even talking about the offense at this point that will be losing the top 2 players in the passing game in Decker and Tow-Arnett plus the possibility of having a regressing QB start or a 1st year QB, neither of which is promising. Plus the 2 units returning the most (OL and RB) will look mostly the same, which I'm not certain is a good thing as they've played and shown little.

As I've said many times in this thread, things will get worse before they get better and I don't know if Brewster can last through it.

On the bright side, the lumps taken next year should have benefits for the 2011 season when experienced depth is exists along with mostly upperclassman starters who have mostly had a year of starting experience.

 

[Maroon]

Can't say I disagree with Pewterschmidt at all

 

[bailee88]

Typicaly the Gophers play a 4-3 so only 3 of the LB's you named will play the other one will provide depth along with Grant and Singleton. A recruit may have to be in the mix at LB next year.

DE I am excited about Garin and Hageman as well as Jacobs.

The O-line will be better with the return of Wynn and Fr Michel and Olson. who knows maybe Gjerre or Henderson could be in the mix.

A WR like Green or Hayo will have to step up for Decker. Lair will fill the void for Tow Arnett

QB Webber will play better or he will be replaced thereofre we will be better at that position.

These are just a few areas as examples of players coming up and filling the holes left by departing players. We could go back and forth all day like this but nothing will change. You will continue to see the glass as half empty and I will see the glass as half full.

 

[Pewterschmidt]

Took at stab at the depth chart on defense next year to prove my point.

DE: Jacobs - Hageman
DE: Wilhite - Garin or KGM
DT: Kirksey - Jacques
DT: Edwards - Searcy??? or another true freshman???
LB: Cooper - Grant
LB: Tinsley - Maresh
LB: Reeves - Singleton
CB: Carter - Lewis
CB: Collado - J Johnson
S: Royston - Rallis
S: Theret - Dandridge

Seriously...look at that for a second. Outside of Rallis and Dandridge, name a backup that has even played? Those players will be backing up 9 players that have either never started a game before or only a small handful.

And we expect an improvement against USC, Iowa, OSU, PSU, at Wisconsin, at Mich St, at Illinois, and at Purdue?

 

[Schnauzer]

Well, congrats on considering yourself to be a rational poster. Now that you have declared yourself to be rational, I challenge you to find anyone on this (or any other) board who considers themselves to be irrational, stupid, wrong, etc. Keep in mind, I am not calling you any of those things, I just find it funny that someone would take the time to declare themselves "rational."

I think you have a hard time grasping the nature of college recruiting, player development, weightlifting, physical maturation, etc. etc. etc. Until you do I would suspect you would NEVER see the possibility of any team improving or maintaining if most of its previous starting lineup happened to be seniors. This is best demonstrated by your question about who will back up next year's starters. It appears as though you are unaware that almost all starters begin as backups and most backups were at one time high school players. Their time as backups doesn't always mean they are inferior players, they just haven't progressed through that natural cycle you are missing: maturation.

I find the viewpoint very close to saying "Oh my gawd! We won't have ANY players in five years!!! Who will wear the uniforms in five years?"

 

[RedPoo]

Took at stab at the depth chart on defense next year to prove my point.

DE: Jacobs - Hageman
DE: Wilhite - Garin or KGM
DT: Kirksey - Jacques
DT: Edwards - Searcy??? or another true freshman???
LB: Cooper - Grant
LB: Tinsley - Maresh
LB: Reeves - Singleton
CB: Carter - Lewis
CB: Collado - J Johnson
S: Royston - Rallis
S: Theret - Dandridge

Seriously...look at that for a second. Outside of Rallis and Dandridge, name a backup that has even played? Those players will be backing up 9 players that have either never started a game before or only a small handful.

And we expect an improvement against USC, Iowa, OSU, PSU, at Wisconsin, at Mich St, at Illinois, and at Purdue?

I don't expect an improvement in record. However, and I think most people agree with me, I do expect a very similar season to this one. The only difference being, outside of the offensive line, it will likely be a very young team next year. So when we're 4-4 at this point next season, instead of a few people freaking out and expecting a monumental collapse in 2010, I fully intend to be one of the people freaking out about how many starters we'll be bringing back, and doing my damndest to find a loss on the 2011 schedule.