The problem with PJ

Donate To GopherHole
Gophers1992 said:
I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but this is true for every system more or less.
Click to expand...
but I think that is really the crux of the argument.

when you're playing a team that is - at least on paper - superior - if you want to give yourself a chance to win, a lot of coaches will pull out all the stops. break your tendencies. throw everything you have at them - trick plays, you name it. even if they lose, they get credit for trying something different.

Fleck sticks to his guns. he doesn't deviate from the system.

You can credit Fleck for believing in his system - but you can also question Fleck for his unwillingness to deviate from the system WHEN that system isn't working.

Just once it would be fun to see the Gophers go out of the box. but I'm not going to hold my breath while I'm waiting.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
but I think that is really the crux of the argument.

when you're playing a team that is - at least on paper - superior - if you want to give yourself a chance to win, a lot of coaches will pull out all the stops. break your tendencies. throw everything you have at them - trick plays, you name it. even if they lose, they get credit for trying something different.

Fleck sticks to his guns. he doesn't deviate from the system.

You can credit Fleck for believing in his system - but you can also question Fleck for his unwillingness to deviate from the system WHEN that system isn't working.

Just once it would be fun to see the Gophers go out of the box. but I'm not going to hold my breath while I'm waiting.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to think of good examples of a coach or program who is somewhat frequently able to "pull out all the stops" like that and I really can't think of one.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
but I think that is really the crux of the argument.

when you're playing a team that is - at least on paper - superior - if you want to give yourself a chance to win, a lot of coaches will pull out all the stops. break your tendencies. throw everything you have at them - trick plays, you name it. even if they lose, they get credit for trying something different.

Fleck sticks to his guns. he doesn't deviate from the system.

You can credit Fleck for believing in his system - but you can also question Fleck for his unwillingness to deviate from the system WHEN that system isn't working.

Just once it would be fun to see the Gophers go out of the box. but I'm not going to hold my breath while I'm waiting.
Click to expand...
There is a further question: Is a coach smart to steadfastly believe in Tressel’s system without Ohio State talent?
 

Sure, there can be complex reasoning that goes into any (big) decision on the field. Just like there can be over-thinking things.

Just because they do a complex thought process for the decision doesn’t prove that the decision actually was difficult or complex.

PJ gets some big decisions pretty wrong. Is what it is
 

short ornery norwegian said:
honestly, I think most people here are generally in agreement. (I could be wrong....)

PJ's system works when he has the right personnel and is facing certain types of opponents.

It doesn't work - or doesn't work as well - when the Gophers are facing an opponent that has a decided edge in personnel or athletic ability.

so PJ's system works well enough for the Gophers to win 7, 8 or 9 games most seasons - but that system comes with a ceiling. (I might even say a self-imposed ceiling).

IMHO, the only way to move past that ceiling is for the Gophers to recruit a higher class of athletes. which - to this point - they have not been able to do.
Click to expand...
Yes … but if recruiting higher level athletes is problematic, then, when playing a more talented team, break out of the conservative box, Take chances. Do the unexpected. It might well lead to just as big a big loss, but at least you go down swinging.
 


@Gophers1992 because coaches who do that are “riverboat gamblers”.

You can get some great wins but also some boneheaded losses. Live by it, die by it.
 

Gophers1992 said:
I'm trying to think of good examples of a coach or program who is somewhat frequently able to "pull out all the stops" like that and I really can't think of one.
Click to expand...
From a few years back, but Les Miles when he was at LSU would fit the bill, I think. He'd call up a fake field goal or whatever kinda thing, take chances a lot.
 

GopherTheJugular said:
From a few years back, but Les Miles when he was at LSU would fit the bill, I think. He'd call up a fake field goal or whatever kinda thing, take chances a lot.
Click to expand...
He also typically had tons of talent on those teams.

I think we just remember the bad times more than the good. One example I can think where we played "PJ Ball" and played close against a team with way more talent was 2021 Ohio State. Heck even our mediocre 2018 team hung with OSU for a while in that game.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Says the person who can’t respond with a legitimate answer…
Click to expand...
Don't worry about him/her. As soon as I saw you criticize that person's post, I knew you were gonna start getting responses like that.

Said poster is very, very sensitive and you're on the "bad" list now.
 



Gophers1992 said:
He also typically had tons of talent on those teams.
Click to expand...
Doesn't take away from the point I was replying to though. Said poster was just looking for an example, and I provide one of a risk-taker. They called him the mad-hatter or something because of it, didn't they?
 

GopherTheJugular said:
Doesn't take away from the point I was replying to though. Said poster was just looking for an example, and I provide one of a risk-taker. They called him the mad-hatter or something because of it, didn't they?
Click to expand...
I guess I meant an example of a coach who puts it all out there against teams where he has a significant talent deficit, and it pays off with any type of regularity. I just don't think that happens.
 

Well with the league schedule, we better be ready to counter superior talent with something other than run, run, pass, punt.
 

Gophers1992 said:
I guess I meant an example of a coach who puts it all out there against teams where he has a significant talent deficit, and it pays off with any type of regularity. I just don't think that happens.
Click to expand...
Ah, ok. Yeah, that's slightly different than how I interpreted the question.

To that point, the only one off the top of my head would be Chris Peterson when he was at BSU. They did some interesting things to say the least when beating Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl, and he seemed to be pretty aggressive when playing those P5 (although this wasn't a term at the time) teams to start his seasons.

That being said, that's a pretty small sample size since his team was probably favored in at least 10 games each season. I'd just add as a footnote that he seemed to try to take it to Alabama when he was coaching Washington. Led for a quarter, then Alabama ran with it.

I'll try and think of some others. They'd probably be G5-level guys though so the sample sizes will probably be small too.
 



GopherTheJugular said:
Ah, ok. Yeah, that's slightly different than how I interpreted the question.

To that point, the only one off the top of my head would be Chris Peterson when he was at BSU. They did some interesting things to say the least when beating Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl, and he seemed to be pretty aggressive when playing those P5 (although this wasn't a term at the time) teams to start his seasons.

That being said, that's a pretty small sample size since his team was probably favored in at least 10 games each season. I'd just add as a footnote that he seemed to try to take it to Alabama when he was coaching Washington. Led for a quarter, then Alabama ran with it.

I'll try and think of some others. They'd probably be G5-level guys though so the sample sizes will probably be small too.
Click to expand...
and therein lies the issue......fans say we need to do X or we need to do Y yet they can't come up with examples of other teams doing the same thing with success.

All comes back to the fact that coaches base their decisions on how they are going to attack another team off of hours and hours of film study and game planning.

They might make mistakes in game with clock management or split second decisions but the fans that toss out the we just need to be more aggressive throwing the ball or need to go more up tempo or whatever are ignoring the fact that the coaches know their personnel and have spent a significant amount of time studying the opponents personnel. It is far more complicated than the disgruntled fans want to make it out to be.
 

The disgruntled I was referring to has nothing to do with film study. Taking a time out, not taking a time out, not going for it — things you just have to “feel” for the game by being savy and experienced. PJ’s is partly broken, for some reason.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
honestly, I think most people here are generally in agreement. (I could be wrong....)

PJ's system works when he has the right personnel and is facing certain types of opponents.

It doesn't work - or doesn't work as well - when the Gophers are facing an opponent that has a decided edge in personnel or athletic ability.

so PJ's system works well enough for the Gophers to win 7, 8 or 9 games most seasons - but that system comes with a ceiling. (I might even say a self-imposed ceiling).

IMHO, the only way to move past that ceiling is for the Gophers to recruit a higher class of athletes. which - to this point - they have not been able to do.
Click to expand...
The system also has a self-imposed ceiling in recruiting.
 


Gophers1992 said:
I guess I meant an example of a coach who puts it all out there against teams where he has a significant talent deficit, and it pays off with any type of regularity. I just don't think that happens.
Click to expand...
Why are you looking for “any type of regularity’? If you win two games of 10 against superior talent that would be better than winning zero out of ten.
 

MNVCGUY said:
and therein lies the issue......fans say we need to do X or we need to do Y yet they can't come up with examples of other teams doing the same thing with success.

All comes back to the fact that coaches base their decisions on how they are going to attack another team off of hours and hours of film study and game planning.

They might make mistakes in game with clock management or split second decisions but the fans that toss out the we just need to be more aggressive throwing the ball or need to go more up tempo or whatever are ignoring the fact that the coaches know their personnel and have spent a significant amount of time studying the opponents personnel. It is far more complicated than the disgruntled fans want to make it out to be.
Click to expand...
Yes football coaching can get complicated. But there is always that simple question: why would you want to make it easier for the defense by being predictable?

I will venture to say Fleck’s offense is one of the easier to prepare for and defend.
 

Gophers1992 said:
He also typically had tons of talent on those teams.

I think we just remember the bad times more than the good. One example I can think where we played "PJ Ball" and played close against a team with way more talent was 2021 Ohio State. Heck even our mediocre 2018 team hung with OSU for a while in that game.
Click to expand...
I agree people remember the bad more than the good.

I think we primarily hung with Ohio State in 2021 because we had the best player on the field that day, Mo Ibrahim. As soon as he got injured, the whole game changed. He was so dominant I think it was 50/50 we win if he doesn’t get hurt. Mo, a strong offensive line and good defense helped PJ play to his conservative strengths. He doesn’t have those things right now and is struggling without them.

A great running back may not mean as much in the NFL, but they can still wreck a college football game. Second most important position behind quarterback. Listen to Illinois fans talk about their offense right now without Chase Brown! That guy seemed to fall forward for 2-3 yards after every run in our game with them last year.
 

Dantonio at MSU was known for having a trick or two up his sleeve.
 



Gophers1992 said:
Neither of these programs have been significantly better than us under PJ.
Click to expand...
Minnesota has played close to their ceiling while the others have underperformed. In particular, Wisconsin made the move that gives them at least a chance to position themselves to be competitive when the league expands. I don’t see the ceiling moving for the Gophers under PJ, and maybe that’s fine for this program at this point in time with the hand they’ve been dealt.
 

formerlybis said:
Minnesota has played close to their ceiling while the others have underperformed. In particular, Wisconsin made the move that gives them at least a chance to position themselves to be competitive when the league expands. I don’t see the ceiling moving for the Gophers under PJ, and maybe that’s fine for this program at this point in time with the hand they’ve been dealt.
Click to expand...
And we’re ready to say that Fickell is a superior head coach based on his one season of big ten head coaching where he won 6 games with an OSU roster?
 

Gophers1992 said:
And we’re ready to say that Fickell is a superior head coach based on his one season of big ten head coaching where he won 6 games with an OSU roster?
Click to expand...
If you ask anyone in the country, outside of Minnesota, who is a better coach between Fleck and Fickell, 95% are going to pick the guy with the extra vowel in his name.
 


PMWinSTP said:
Yes and no. 2017 and the ultraconservative offensive choices Fleck made are on him. He had a Dual-threat QB he could have used in a read-option offense very similar to what Kill/Claeys ran that I think would have produced better results on the field.
Click to expand...
We had a dual threat QB? Are you thinking croft was an actual threat in passing game?
 



You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom