The problem with PJ

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wimpygopher

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I’ve been a long suffering Gopher fan. I really like PJ. PJ has been pretty good for the Gophers. The “Row the Boat” mantra has led to success not seen in a long time. He recruits well and produces really fine young gentlemen. However, I think his problem is not instilling confidence in his players by being so conservative himself and not taking risks (e.g. running out first half clock when we have the ball at our own 40). I see him bringing in good players, but they don’t develop much further.
 


wimpygopher said:
I’ve been a long suffering Gopher fan. I really like PJ. PJ has been pretty good for the Gophers. The “Row the Boat” mantra has led to success not seen in a long time. He recruits well and produces really fine young gentlemen. However, I think his problem is not instilling confidence in his players by being so conservative himself and not taking risks (e.g. running out first half clock when we have the ball at our own 40). I see him bringing in good players, but they don’t develop much further.
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His recruiting is overrated by PJ himself. Look at how his classes rank compared to his Big Ten peers, not terrible but nothing special. Now some will say rankings don’t matter and they aren’t always correct but more often than not there is correlation between rankings and success. He needs to be superior as a developer of talent if he is going to recruit on par or lower than his conference peers. He is just okay at both, not terrible but nothing special.
 
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GopherGod said:
His recruiting is overrated by PJ himself. Look at how his classes rank compared to his Big Ten peers, not terrible but nothing special. Now some will say rankings don’t matter and they aren’t always correct but more often than not there is correlation between rankings and success. He needs to be superior as a developer of talent if he is going to recruit on par or lower than his conference peers. He is just okay at both, not terrible but nothing special.
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It seems like we have a lot more NFL talent than we’ve previously had.
 

I’m not sure if you can look at our class ranks and our success and say we aren’t developing talent compared to their level when they come in.

I do think you can say that they haven’t been clutched and have missed some golden opportunities
I also think it’s fair to say that they’ve won some games they maybe shouldn’t have to turn some seasons into good seasons that maybe should’ve been more mediocre.
 



Look, I'm the first person to say. I think PJ plays too conservatively sometimes. I wonder sometimes why he doesn't find an offensive coordinator that maybe utilizes some of the newer trends.

That said, watch Georgia play this week. Watch the plays Alabama runs. Watch a Utah game. You can even look at the team that just beat us.

Their offenses put up great yardage but if you look at the formations and play calling, they are no more or less conservative than PJ's teams. They just execute at a higher rate because the athletes on the field are superior to the opposing team AND the O coordinators also mix things up a little bit more and catch the other team off guard. They adapt quicker as well. I don't think our scheme is the problem. There are a lot of great teams that have the same scheme as us.
 

wimpygopher said:
I’ve been a long suffering Gopher fan. I really like PJ. PJ has been pretty good for the Gophers. The “Row the Boat” mantra has led to success not seen in a long time. He recruits well and produces really fine young gentlemen. However, I think his problem is not instilling confidence in his players by being so conservative himself and not taking risks (e.g. running out first half clock when we have the ball at our own 40). I see him bringing in good players, but they don’t develop much further.
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You couldn't be more wrong on this.
Pix Six Previews measures player development as well as winning more with less, and PJ is top 5 for both.

Only other team who was similar for both was Iowa.
 





Texan Gopher said:
Look, I'm the first person to say. I think PJ plays too conservatively sometimes. I wonder sometimes why he doesn't find an offensive coordinator that maybe utilizes some of the newer trends.

That said, watch Georgia play this week. Watch the plays Alabama runs. Watch a Utah game. You can even look at the team that just beat us.

Their offenses put up great yardage but if you look at the formations and play calling, they are no more or less conservative than PJ's teams. They just execute at a higher rate because the athletes on the field are superior to the opposing team AND the O coordinators also mix things up a little bit more and catch the other team off guard. They adapt quicker as well. I don't think our scheme is the problem. There are a lot of great teams that have the same scheme as us.
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Not sure I agree, Mich ran formations and plays I have never seen from Fleck. The stacked receivers was one. They ran many plays that created wide open receivers 5-7 yards down field.
 

GopherGod said:
Now some will say rankings don’t matter and they aren’t always correct but more often than not there is correlation between rankings and success.
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Sure, there is a correlation between recruiting talent and success but it's important to understand that there may not be such a big difference between ranks at certain points. There is a head and shoulders difference between our level of recruiting and the levels of recruiting at Michigan, Ohio State, and even Penn State but, after that, not so much. Maryland consistently ranks ahead of us in recruiting but we're 3-3 against them since they joined the Big Ten and have outscored them 200-154 in those games. Iowa has won eight straight against us despite recruiting at a similar level.
 

He's stubborn. I think it's good that he has a plan, a way of doing things. But it doesn't appear that he ever wants to move away from that at all. We want to control the ball, play great defense, etc. But this team clearly isn't doing that. Why not mix it up, run an up-tempo offense for one drive. Do something different.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
This is the problem. It wasn't this way the first 3 years. Then PJ turned into Jerry Kill 2.0.
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In a game without ties. Playing to win and playing not to lose are literally the same thing.

Perhaps you disagree with strategy. But playing “not to lose” literally is a thing we should be doing.
 

GophersInIowa said:
He's stubborn. I think it's good that he has a plan, a way of doing things. But it doesn't appear that he ever wants to move away from that at all. We want to control the ball, play great defense, etc. But this team clearly isn't doing that. Why not mix it up, run an up-tempo offense for one drive. Do something different.
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Disagree with this. This is the second time in his tenure that he has changed offensive scheme and then seemingly abandoned the change shortly thereafter
 


Some guy said:
In a game without ties. Playing to win and playing not to lose are literally the same thing.

Perhaps you disagree with strategy. But playing “not to lose” literally is a thing we should be doing
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They are not the same thing. Unless your brain only operates in literal terms.

Playing to win would be going for it on 4th and short when you can clinch the game by converting.
Playing not to lose would be punting and relying on a stop only.

Playing not to lose is when you always run out the 1st half clock instead of going for points, but risking a turnover.


2019 Wisconsin was the turning point. Up 7-0, 4th and 2 at the WI 35 yard line. And they punted. They took a delay of game and punted. Pathetic. Scared ever since
 

The QB position is extremely important. IMO, that's the difference.

If we have solid QB play the last 3-4 years. we probably win 1-2 B10W. If we had really good QB play, we probably have a couple top 10 finishes.

I don't think we're as far away as other people think. PJ does a nice job of recruiting and recruiting depth but we absolutely need good QB play.

As to the OP's point, I agree with the conservative play calling. It completely shifts the tone.
 

haef7 said:
They are not the same thing. Unless your brain only operates in literal terms.

Playing to win would be going for it on 4th and short when you can clinch the game by converting.
Playing not to lose would be punting and relying on a stop only.

Playing not to lose is when you always run out the 1st half clock instead of going for points, but risking a turnover.


2019 Wisconsin was the turning point. Up 7-0, 4th and 2 at the WI 35 yard line. And they punted. They took a delay of game and punted. Pathetic. Scared ever since
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I was at that game and couldn’t believe he punted there.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
The QB position is extremely important. IMO, that's the difference.

If we have solid QB play the last 3-4 years. we probably win 1-2 B10W. If we had really good QB play, we probably have a couple top 10 finishes.

I don't think we're as far away as other people think. PJ does a nice job of recruiting and recruiting depth but we absolutely need good QB play.

As to the OP's point, I agree with the conservative play calling. It completely shifts the tone.
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After watching what the Michigan QB has done with or without pressure, I'm leaning your way on this. Regardless, the Gophs need to figure out how to get AK, or any QB for that matter, some time to throw. What Michigan did last week was the same exact formula that Illinois, Purdue and other teams have used to beat the Gophs - sending pressure no matter if it's a run or pass down.
 

The problem that I see is it is difficult to recruit to MN due to its geography and weather reputation.

PJ Fleck has made in-roads and he brought Gopher Football to respectability. It is not enough.

The Gophers need more four-star caliber players. Maryland, Rutgers, Purdue, and Indiana are near recruiting hotbeds.

He also needs to address the Offense's ineffectiveness. All facets of Gopher Football position groups need to be scrutinized.

The Michigan game exposed how far behind the Gophers are to championship caliber.
 



haef7 said:
They are not the same thing. Unless your brain only operates in literal terms.

Playing to win would be going for it on 4th and short when you can clinch the game by converting.
Playing not to lose would be punting and relying on a stop only.

Playing not to lose is when you always run out the 1st half clock instead of going for points, but risking a turnover.


2019 Wisconsin was the turning point. Up 7-0, 4th and 2 at the WI 35 yard line. And they punted. They took a delay of game and punted. Pathetic. Scared ever since
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The problem with everyone saying this is that I see no evidence that being more aggressive and “playing to win” is more effective. We just assume being aggressive was the answer every time we go conservative and lose.
 

btowngopher said:
The problem with everyone saying this is that I see no evidence that being more aggressive and “playing to win” is more effective. We just assume being aggressive was the answer every time we go conservative and lose.
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The other thing the play to win vs. play not to lose crowd struggles to do is come up with examples of playing not to lose causing us to lose.

Every coach is playing to win, the fans may not like the style of play they use but it doesn't change the fact that their goal is to win the game and they are running the style of offense/defense they feel will accomplish that goal.
 

MNVCGUY said:
The other thing the play to win vs. play not to lose crowd struggles to do is come up with examples of playing not to lose causing us to lose.

Every coach is playing to win, the fans may not like the style of play they use but it doesn't change the fact that their goal is to win the game and they are running the style of offense/defense they feel will accomplish that goal.
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They love pinning the 21 point loss to Wisconsin in 2019 on Fleck punting one time from inside the 40.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
This is the problem. It wasn't this way the first 3 years. Then PJ turned into Jerry Kill 2.0.
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Yes and no. 2017 and the ultraconservative offensive choices Fleck made are on him. He had a Dual-threat QB he could have used in a read-option offense very similar to what Kill/Claeys ran that I think would have produced better results on the field.
 

Border Gopher said:
Yeah, wish Minnesota was closer to the equator like Iowa and Wisconsin.
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It isn’t just weather and lack of in-state talent, it’s also lack of fan support. Gophers struggle to sell out one of the smallest stadiums in P5 in one or the largest
College cities in P5. Players want to go where they can win, make money, and actually be noticed and appreciated by the fans.
 

GopherGod said:
It isn’t just weather and lack of in-state talent, it’s also lack of fan support. Gophers struggle to sell out one of the smallest stadiums in P5 in one or the largest
College cities in P5. Players want to go where they can win, make money, and actually be noticed and appreciated by the fans.
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Lack of media support doesn’t help either.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Yes and no. 2017 and the ultraconservative offensive choices Fleck made are on him. He had a Dual-threat QB he could have used in a read-option offense very similar to what Kill/Claeys ran that I think would have produced better results on the field.
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The talent on offense in 2017 was garbage. They barely had an OL, Croft was a terrible QB, and the WRs were terrible outside of TJ who was still developing and then injured at the end of the year. And why would you run a completely different offense than you want to implement in year 1, and then change it in year 2?

The talent on offense the last 3 years was significantly better and there's no reason to be this conservative.
 

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