The problem with PJ

[GopherWeatherGuy]

In a game without ties. Playing to win and playing not to lose are literally the same thing.

Perhaps you disagree with strategy. But playing “not to lose” literally is a thing we should be doing.

If you want to argue semantics just to argue, then sure. You know what myself and others mean by using that phrase.

Playing not to lose means running low risk, lower reward plays, even when the situation calls for otherwise. Playing to win means you'll run higher risk plays, with higher reward, especially when the game is on the line.

 

[Some guy]

If you want to argue semantics just to argue, then sure. You know what myself and others mean by using that phrase.

Playing not to lose means running low risk, lower reward plays, even when the situation calls for otherwise. Playing to win means you'll run higher risk plays, with higher reward, especially when the game is on the line.

Playing low risk lower reward plays is how you beat a team that is undisciplined
Which often is a good strategy when you have less talent.

Try to out execute them in a smaller number of plays.

Playing to win = playing not to lose



I think we are too conservative. But conservatism isn’t innately worse.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Yes and no. 2017 and the ultraconservative offensive choices Fleck made are on him. He had a Dual-threat QB he could have used in a read-option offense very similar to what Kill/Claeys ran that I think would have produced better results on the field.

Dual threat QB?.....what were his dual threats.......fumble or throw an int?

 

[Gophers1992]

We could argue back and forth about whether “playing not to lose” is a thing or not (I personally think it’s a dumb phrase but I digress), but if we’re going to rip PJ and company for games that we have lost for being too conservative, surely we have to give praise for the times it has helped us win, right?

 

[PMWinSTP]

The talent on offense in 2017 was garbage. They barely had an OL, Croft was a terrible QB, and the WRs were terrible outside of TJ who was still developing and then injured at the end of the year. And why would you run a completely different offense than you want to implement in year 1, and then change it in year 2?

The talent on offense the last 3 years was significantly better and there's no reason to be this conservative.

Seth Green. There was enough talent to run the read option, and there were two very winnable games in Purdue and Maryland. You really think the offense in 2017 was the same one he ran in 2018? I agree that he has not changed his conservative ways, or ability to adjust within games.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Playing low risk lower reward plays is how you beat a team that is undisciplined
Which often is a good strategy when you have less talent.

Try to out execute them in a smaller number of plays.

Playing to win = playing not to lose



I think we are too conservative. But conservatism isn’t innately worse.

Undisciplined teams are generally bad teams. Good teams are not undisciplined.

PJ and Kill almost always have beaten the teams that were worse than them, mainly with conservative play. They have almost always lost to the good/ranked teams, because they don't take enough risks. The main exception being 2019, where the Gophers had a lot more aggressive play calling. That was able to put them over the top against highly ranked teams like Penn St and Auburn.

Conservative play calling is the difference between 9-4 and 11-2 the last two seasons and we couldn't beat the good teams to win the west.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Fleck is a Jim Tressel disciple. run the ball, control time of possession, and keep your defense off the field.

that is his football philosophy, and after 10+ years as a D1 head coach, I don't see any signs that he is going to change.

whether he is capable of changing is a longer discussion.

but short of some ultimatum from the AD (which ain't going to happen), I just don't see Fleck ever going to a wide-open offense.

going into this season, there were a lot of stories about how the offense was going to change to feature the QB. and that's all they were - stories. when push comes to shove, Fleck's first impulse is to revert back to what he knows best - Tressel ball.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Seth Green. There was enough talent to run the read option, and there were two very winnable games in Purdue and Maryland. You really think the offense in 2017 was the same one he ran in 2018? I agree that he has not changed his conservative ways, or ability to adjust within games.

Seth Green? He's a worse passer than Croft. It was the same base offense for sure, and their base offense under Ciarrocca was the run pass option. That's why they started Rhoda, because he was the only QB that was a real threat to throw.

 

[Gophers1992]

Seth Green. There was enough talent to run the read option, and there were two very winnable games in Purdue and Maryland. You really think the offense in 2017 was the same one he ran in 2018? I agree that he has not changed his conservative ways, or ability to adjust within games.

Seth Green? Can we at least be serious here?

 

[Replacement Gopher]

They love pinning the 21 point loss to Wisconsin in 2019 on Fleck punting one time from inside the 40.

Punting within the 40 on 4th and 2 is so dumb, it calls into question everything else he does - and he has done plenty of dumb things after that decision.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Seth Green? Can we at least be serious here?

Read option QB. Green was recruited for that type of offense.

Seth Green? He's a worse passer than Croft. It was the same base offense for sure, and their base offense under Ciarrocca was the run pass option. That's why they started Rhoda, because he was the only QB that was a real threat to throw.

I see, same base offense, riiight...he ran 70% of the time in an offense that was even more predictable and basic than the simplistic, mediocre high school offense he's running now. Green would have been the QB at the time to run the read option...hell he would have been better in that offense Fleck actually ran in 2017.

 

[upnorthkid]

Punting within the 40 on 4th and 2 is so dumb, it calls into question everything else he does - and he has done plenty of dumb things after that decision.

If you base your decisions on game theory, you are 100% correct. You will always lose predicted win % in that situation

 

[gopherbadgerman]

They love pinning the 21 point loss to Wisconsin in 2019 on Fleck punting one time from inside the 40.

There were plenty of issues that game. The punt was one of them

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Read option QB. Green was recruited for that type of offense.

I see, same base offense, riiight...he ran 70% of the time in an offense that was even more predictable and basic than the simplistic, mediocre high school offense he's running now. Green would have been the QB at the time to run the read option...hell he would have been better in that offense Fleck actually ran in 2017.

Oh please. You want to talk about HS offenses, Green wasn't even a full time starter at QB in HS. And you think he would have been more successful in a B1G offense running a read option offense with little talent and a coaching staff who doesn't run the read option because it sucks?

You're hung up on 2017 because you wanted anyone but PJ to be the coach here and all of the options you threw out there were 10 times worse. Still waiting for the BoR to fire Coyle and re-hire Tracy....

 

[hungan1]

We could argue back and forth about whether “playing not to lose” is a thing or not (I personally think it’s a dumb phrase but I digress), but if we’re going to rip PJ and company for games that we have lost for being too conservative, surely we have to give praise for the times it has helped us win, right?

The Gophers need a killer instinct on offense. Loosen up the offensive philosophy. Do not be afraid of failure.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Some of you should be happy not to follow the men goph bball program. Now that coach is awful.

 

[Some guy]

Undisciplined teams are generally bad teams. Good teams are not undisciplined.

PJ and Kill almost always have beaten the teams that were worse than them, mainly with conservative play. They have almost always lost to the good/ranked teams, because they don't take enough risks. The main exception being 2019, where the Gophers had a lot more aggressive play calling. That was able to put them over the top against highly ranked teams like Penn St and Auburn.

Conservative play calling is the difference between 9-4 and 11-2 the last two seasons and we couldn't beat the good teams to win the west.

Lol
Good job outing yourself as knowing nothing about football

 

[Replacement Gopher]

They love pinning the 21 point loss to Wisconsin in 2019 on Fleck punting one time from inside the 40.

You know he did the exact same thing - punted on 4th and 2 from the opponents 37 yard line - against Northwestern in the 4th quarter. The game were we gave up a 21-point fourth quarter lead because we were just trying to run the clock out. Might as well have been Glen Mason on the sidelines.

PJ is dumb and never learns a lesson.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Lol
Good job outing yourself as knowing nothing about football

Says the person who can’t respond with a legitimate answer…

 

[PMWinSTP]

Oh please. You want to talk about HS offenses, Green wasn't even a full time starter at QB in HS. And you think he would have been more successful in a B1G offense running a read option offense with little talent and a coaching staff who doesn't run the read option because it sucks?

You're hung up on 2017 because you wanted anyone but PJ to be the coach here and all of the options you threw out there were 10 times worse. Still waiting for the BoR to fire Coyle and re-hire Tracy....

 

[btowngopher]

You know he did the exact same thing - punted on 4th and 2 from the opponents 37 yard line - against Northwestern in the 4th quarter. The game were we gave up a 21-point fourth quarter lead because we were just trying to run the clock out. Might as well have been Glen Mason on the sidelines.

PJ is dumb and never learns a lesson.

So you would’ve been on here defending him adamantly had we gone for it and not converted? We punted on 4th and 3 from their 39 earlier in the game which led to our first TD when they turned it over inside the 10.

 

[MplsGopher]

PJ's style is fine most of the time.

The "problem" is like this (I don't know how better to describe it): there are key moments, not in every game but a decent amount of games and usually the big games, where every fan in the stands knows what needs to be done .... but PJ either won't do it or can't see it. In the heat of the moment, he makes the choice that fans are like "dude, come on!!"

That's what pisses fans off. Sometimes, sure, PJ probably knows better and has reasoning that he sometimes explains and sometimes doesn't. But the other times, it was the wrong call.

 

[STPGopher]

PJ's style is fine most of the time.

The "problem" is like this (I don't know how better to describe it): there are key moments, not in every game but a decent amount of games and usually the big games, where every fan in the stands knows what needs to be done .... but PJ either won't do it or can't see it. In the heat of the moment, he makes the choice that fans are like "dude, come on!!"

That's what pisses fans off. Sometimes, sure, PJ probably knows better and has reasoning that he sometimes explains and sometimes doesn't. But the other times, it was the wrong call.

Over simplifying. IMHO PJ (like Michigan) likes to play like a Boa constrictor. By draining the clock and preferably field position, the hope is to force the opponent to press, and make mistakes. Often effective, but hard to come from behind.

Yes I like stating the obvious.

 

[Some guy]

Says the person who can’t respond with a legitimate answer…

Lol

 

[Dakota2]

He's stubborn. I think it's good that he has a plan, a way of doing things. But it doesn't appear that he ever wants to move away from that at all. We want to control the ball, play great defense, etc. But this team clearly isn't doing that. Why not mix it up, run an up-tempo offense for one drive. Do something different.

Over simplifying. IMHO PJ (like Michigan) likes to play like a Boa constrictor. By draining the clock and preferably field position, the hope is to force it the opponent to press, and make mistakes. Often effective, but hard to come from behind.

Yes I like stating the obvious.

Everybody knows the hoped for results of the strategy. But you only control the ball and clock if you make first downs. Making it easy for the defense is not always the way to get that done.

 

[MNVCGUY]

PJ's style is fine most of the time.

The "problem" is like this (I don't know how better to describe it): there are key moments, not in every game but a decent amount of games and usually the big games, where every fan in the stands knows what needs to be done .... but PJ either won't do it or can't see it. In the heat of the moment, he makes the choice that fans are like "dude, come on!!"

That's what pisses fans off. Sometimes, sure, PJ probably knows better and has reasoning that he sometimes explains and sometimes doesn't. But the other times, it was the wrong call.

Like STP said this is way oversimplifying things. It is easy after the fact to go back and second guess decisions and say they were wrong. In many cases that might even be true.

But it is way harder in the heat of the moment, there are so many things all happening at the same time and decisions have to be made in a split second. To a fan it seems easy, sitting in the stands or on their couch but that is just not the case.

Coaches make mistakes but they are making the decisions they do based on way more information than what fans have and they are doing what they feel will give the team the best chance to win the game. The other thing that happens post game all the time is fans will point to one decision and say that is why we lost when the reality is that the only time you can actually make that claim is if the decision was on the final play of the game.

 

[FredCoxRocks]

You know when "playing not to lose" happens. It might not be a specific play, or non-play, but you just get a sense when it's happening.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

honestly, I think most people here are generally in agreement. (I could be wrong....)

PJ's system works when he has the right personnel and is facing certain types of opponents.

It doesn't work - or doesn't work as well - when the Gophers are facing an opponent that has a decided edge in personnel or athletic ability.

so PJ's system works well enough for the Gophers to win 7, 8 or 9 games most seasons - but that system comes with a ceiling. (I might even say a self-imposed ceiling).

IMHO, the only way to move past that ceiling is for the Gophers to recruit a higher class of athletes. which - to this point - they have not been able to do.

 

[Gophers1992]

honestly, I think most people here are generally in agreement. (I could be wrong....)

PJ's system works when he has the right personnel and is facing certain types of opponents.

It doesn't work - or doesn't work as well - when the Gophers are facing an opponent that has a decided edge in personnel or athletic ability.

so PJ's system works well enough for the Gophers to win 7, 8 or 9 games most seasons - but that system comes with a ceiling. (I might even say a self-imposed ceiling).

IMHO, the only way to move past that ceiling is for the Gophers to recruit a higher class of athletes. which - to this point - they have not been able to do.

I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but this is true for every system more or less.

 

[MNVCGUY]

honestly, I think most people here are generally in agreement. (I could be wrong....)

PJ's system works when he has the right personnel and is facing certain types of opponents.

It doesn't work - or doesn't work as well - when the Gophers are facing an opponent that has a decided edge in personnel or athletic ability.

so PJ's system works well enough for the Gophers to win 7, 8 or 9 games most seasons - but that system comes with a ceiling. (I might even say a self-imposed ceiling).

IMHO, the only way to move past that ceiling is for the Gophers to recruit a higher class of athletes. which - to this point - they have not been able to do.

Agree with the sentiment of your post. The final part is the big one and it is the one that teams and fans are going to wrestle with the most.

For the Gophers to compete with the best they will need better athletes but schools like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa.....are not positioned well in the current college football landscape to be able to get those athletes.

So fans/teams are going to be forced with deciding what is acceptable. Cracking the top of the new look Big Ten with Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, USC and Oregon all in the mix is going to prove very difficult/close to impossible for the majority of the other teams in the conference on a yearly basis.

Is being a program that wins consistently but isn't among the best int he conference good enough? A lot of fans/teams are going to have to make that determination.