The Gophers are improving

Simple. He's on this team and I want everyone to improve.
But that’s not a forest vs. trees way of thinking? You get really mad when people want to win this year so why would you care about someone who is not part of our future improving?
 

Conference is really good and deep.
I’m not sure the top are all top 15 type teams but everyone except the gophers is probably top 100

People keep saying it’s almost impossible to go 0-X in the conference. But most of the data comes from a time when there were seasons with 3-4 bad teams in the conference. This year there is only 1 maybe 2
Agreed we are not good that's obvious. I don't think Northwestern is either but they have a core of guys like Audige, Bougie, Beran and Berry who have been there for awhile now so you'd think they could pick some teams off. Purdue the class of the league, Indiana lost their PG and I think Race got hurt too. Wisconsin will probably do well because of their formula but they'll lose in the first weekend of the tournament again. Not really sure if what to make of Ohio State and Illinois, seem talented but not consistent. After that there's probably 8-9 teams that are pretty interchangable. All do some things well, have their flaws, will see how it plays out. I don't think we will go winless, think they'll be quite a few losses like today, some blowouts in the road but I think at some point we will pick a couple of teams off. Combo of knocking on the door on our end and getting a team whose slumping. Our coach did play for the only winless team in this league, so I guess it would be fitting if he coached the second one
 


He's very reactionary and posts a lot of dumb shit to stir the pot and ducks out, throws a metaphorical grenade in the room if you will. Doesn't offer anything as far as actual analysis
He’s a writer who may or may not receive any or only a small amount of compensation on a free message board, so really it’s that important to belittle him? 🤦‍♂️
 

But that’s not a forest vs. trees way of thinking? You get really mad when people want to win this year so why would you care about someone who is not part of our future improving?
I understand you are struggling with this.
Enjoying wins while not obsessing over them and being disappointed with a loss while not obsessing over them is different than only focusing on wins and losses. Perhaps you and others are not able to grasp this difference.
That may explain why you don't understand team improvement and why I appreciate Samuels improvement as well.
 


they are competing for back to back last place finishes in the big 10.

That is f------g pathetic.
As DJT likes to say: bad publicity is better than no publicity.
 

There is not one person posting on this board who expected us to be worse than last year. NO ONE!

What gives?

Hell, we were losing Battle and Garcia to the NBA

Things are on the upswing, though.
 
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Give us the explanation on this. I'm fascinated to hear your rationale.
Not this team, clearly, but post firing Pitino that should have been the clear and attainable goal. We hired a training wheels candidate rather than an advancement candidate...
 




6-8, 0-4.

WOW. All that improvement.

Well, clearly you just don't KNOW... we have a few very select fans/posters here who just KNOW more than everyone else about basketball and program building, recruiting, player development, et al.... Best to just sit back and let them tell you all about it, no sense in arguing with them about it
 

Battle and Garcia have shot 24/63 or 38% the last two games while the supporting cast, mostly the young guys have shot 31/55 or 56%. The shot selection by Battle and Garcia is really poor and that needs to be coached out of them. Garcia had two or three shots that I would classify as "throws" with next to zero chance of going in. Garcia had a nice game today, a good effort, but he and Battle have to lead in playing smart and involving everyone.
 




Not this team, clearly, but post firing Pitino that should have been the clear and attainable goal. We hired a training wheels candidate rather than an advancement candidate...
The Snake did the same with the woman's program. At some point people either need to be patient or call out Mark Coyle for his hires.

It took Clem over a decade to get to the Final Four. At this program you have to be patient or you have to find another team to cheer for.
 

The Snake did the same with the woman's program. At some point people either need to be patient or call out Mark Coyle for his hires.

It took Clem over a decade to get to the Final Four. At this program you have to be patient or you have to find another team to cheer for.
It was the wrong hire and yes it falls on Coyle.
 


It was the wrong hire and yes it falls on Coyle.
It could be. I thought Whalen was the wrong hire and the first couple years were just awful. This year the women are improving with a great recruiting class.

Johnson has had two solid recruiting classes so if Whalen gets time, I tip the hat to Johnson to get the time.

I know that pisses off a lot of people who cannot handle watching the present team. Perhaps look back to the 1984 Minnesota Twins with a bunch of rookies getting pounded and a young, unproven Manager learning how to manage. Then project to 1987 with those kids winning the World Series with that same coach. Johnson gets 2 more years (minimum) to show the improvement. If he cannot do that, then he's gone. You may be living in a catatonic state after suffering a stroke by that time, but that's the nature of where we are at.
 

We should be competing for a tournament birth this year...
After watching our team and seeing us shoot free throws and seeing battle and garcia do nothing half the time what would ever make you think we should make the tournament. Our freshman our so inconsistent which is expected. Freshman are freshman unfortunately. Growing pains.
 

Perhaps look back to the 1984 Minnesota Twins with a bunch of rookies getting pounded and a young, unproven Manager learning how to manage. Then project to 1987 with those kids winning the World Series with that same coach.
Billy Gardner was the manager of the 1984 Twins, who actually could have won the division if not for a horrific final series in Cleveland. Tom Kelly didn’t become manager until 1986.
 

I understand you are struggling with this.
Enjoying wins while not obsessing over them and being disappointed with a loss while not obsessing over them is different than only focusing on wins and losses. Perhaps you and others are not able to grasp this difference.
That may explain why you don't understand team improvement and why I appreciate Samuels improvement as well.
I don't understand your appreciation of Samuels' improvement because it is inconsistent with your "logic" on this board. I do understand that you probably aren't intellectually capable of appreciating that fact though.

As to your second point, who is only focusing on wins and losses? I was pretty happy about the way Ben coached last year and even how he constructed the roster. I can find dozens of posts where I'm praising him. We barely won at all last year.

This year, our team does not fit together at all - from the guys that he brought in. That's judging him on roster construction (not wins and losses).

This year, our defense has looked putrid at times (improving the last couple of games). I praised them many times last year for playing smart defense (not focusing on Off Reb, not doubling the post, understanding spacing), this year at has been a major regression. Again, that's not judging him on wins and losses.

This year, he is playing one of our best player out of position. I said last year how much I liked him playing Battle at the 4 and I've always said moving Battle to the 3 would be a disaster. Again, not judging on wins and losses.

All of that said, eventually the ultimate goal is wins and it must start next year.

Last year, I could squint a see a more talented version of that team being very good. I saw the path to wins rather than losses. This year, I don't. I see flashes of talent with the young guys and that's fun but I don't see a system that puts them into positions to excel.

I know you're just going to revert to your goldfish logic of "if you don't like Ben you're either racist or ONLY focused on wins now" but it's just not true. It's not true for most of us here. It would be pretty impossible to be a Gopher sports fan and not be patient.
 

Billy Gardner was the manager of the 1984 Twins, who actually could have won the division if not for a horrific final series in Cleveland. Tom Kelly didn’t become manager until 1986.
Yep, and Tom Kelly didn't start the season as the manager. The coach of that team (Ray Miller) was canned at the end of the year. Ray Miller was also in his second season (like Ben Johnson).

So either MennoSota completely whiffed on his analogy or he is arguing for us to can Ben Johnson this year so we can make a run next year.
 

It could be. I thought Whalen was the wrong hire and the first couple years were just awful. This year the women are improving with a great recruiting class.

Johnson has had two solid recruiting classes so if Whalen gets time, I tip the hat to Johnson to get the time.

I know that pisses off a lot of people who cannot handle watching the present team. Perhaps look back to the 1984 Minnesota Twins with a bunch of rookies getting pounded and a young, unproven Manager learning how to manage. Then project to 1987 with those kids winning the World Series with that same coach. Johnson gets 2 more years (minimum) to show the improvement. If he cannot do that, then he's gone. You may be living in a catatonic state after suffering a stroke by that time, but that's the nature of where we are at.
So we had to hire an unqualified coach to completely hollow out the program for the sake of recruiting but ’87 Twins?
 


I don't understand your appreciation of Samuels' improvement because it is inconsistent with your "logic" on this board. I do understand that you probably aren't intellectually capable of appreciating that fact though.
He is a part of the team. As a teammate I support him. He showed you his value to the team, yesterday, and here you are, still whining.

As to your second point, who is only focusing on wins and losses? I was pretty happy about the way Ben coached last year and even how he constructed the roster. I can find dozens of posts where I'm praising him. We barely won at all last year.
You have the same coach who was here last season. The difference is his team is no longer one of the oldest teams. It's now one of the youngest.
It seems you are pining for a team of old men who look pretty to your eyes.

This year, our team does not fit together at all - from the guys that he brought in. That's judging him on roster construction (not wins and losses).
Roster construction is simply going from old men to young pups. The experience level is low, but that doesn't mean the roster is poorly constructed. It means that the construction is starting at the base rather than half way up the wall.

This year, our defense has looked putrid at times (improving the last couple of games). I praised them many times last year for playing smart defense (not focusing on Off Reb, not doubling the post, understanding spacing), this year at has been a major regression. Again, that's not judging him on wins and losses.
If we had the same roster as last year, you could use the term "regression" and it would be correct. With this year's roster, you have to start at this year's beginning and move forward. From that view, even you admit that we are getting better.

This year, he is playing one of our best player out of position. I said last year how much I liked him playing Battle at the 4 and I've always said moving Battle to the 3 would be a disaster. Again, not judging on wins and losses.
With a motion offense Battle is moving around and being guarded by the teams best defender. On defense, the young kids are learning to play defense so Battle looks worse. Give this team time.

All of that said, eventually the ultimate goal is wins and it must start next year.
That is not determined by you or me, but feel free (you already do) to keep whining.

Last year, I could squint a see a more talented version of that team being very good. I saw the path to wins rather than losses. This year, I don't. I see flashes of talent with the young guys and that's fun but I don't see a system that puts them into positions to excel.
Keep comparing apples to oranges. A team that doesn't exist to the team that does exist. Consider how logical you are being.

I know you're just going to revert to your goldfish logic of "if you don't like Ben you're either racist or ONLY focused on wins now" but it's just not true. It's not true for most of us here. It would be pretty impossible to be a Gopher sports fan and not be patient.
Can you point to one time I have played a race card for Ben Johnson?
Every coach is judged by the AD. I'll let that play out.
Coyle hired both Whalen and Johnson as unproven coaches. He will have to figure out what is best for the programs.
 

Sure, but our kids are getting valuable minutes playing against grown men. It's fun to watch them progress if you ever get rid of your myopic goggles.
I totally missed the game. Sounds like they are improving step-by-step?
 

Well, clearly you just don't KNOW... we have a few very select fans/posters here who just KNOW more than everyone else about basketball and program building, recruiting, player development, et al.... Best to just sit back and let them tell you all about it, no sense in arguing with them about it
So are you the example? or are the people that disagree with you the example?

What insights would like to impart on program building? Are those that disagree with you feeding you bull? Are they just too patient?
 

This year, he is playing one of our best player out of position. I said last year how much I liked him playing Battle at the 4 and I've always said moving Battle to the 3 would be a disaster. Again, not judging on wins and losses.
The development and improved play of Henley is going to be key to Battle playing the 4. The line up at the end of the game and OT could be the one if Henley takes JoJ’s spot. Garcia has to play the 5 and against bigger/thicker 5’s he will struggle on the defensive end but Payne can play in his place
 

Yep, and Tom Kelly didn't start the season as the manager. The coach of that team (Ray Miller) was canned at the end of the year. Ray Miller was also in his second season (like Ben Johnson).

So either MennoSota completely whiffed on his analogy or he is arguing for us to can Ben Johnson this year so we can make a run next year.
Ironically, while those managers get a lot of credit, the players often credit Karl Keuhl.

He started a “mental toughness,” development program in the Twins org.

In 83 or 84 he moved over and started developing the A’s. He and Harvey Dorfman (who became A’s mental coach and subsequently the 97 Marlins) wrote the book(s) on mental training.

Those A’s of course became a dynasty. They had a regular string of ROY. They give said credit to Dorfman.

The Mental Toughness piece is a huge part of Ben’s philosophy.

Coaching it is difficult (I am speaking from my own expeirence) and takes awhile. However, the payoff is usually huge.

I think this is what causes a lot of the lumpiness that you’ve been stating between this year and last. At least that is consistent with what I’ve seen and experienced.
 


I totally missed the game. Sounds like they are improving step-by-step?
Battle had a bad game and they still took them to overtime. Henley played under control for the first time, lots of promise. I could see him playing the point with Cooper at the 2 if Henley can sustain some consistency. This is much better basketball than the crap Pitino was putting out there at the end.
 




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