The cynic thread

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cncmin said:
Agreed...I'm surprised Fleck moved so fast for him, given Arkansas' mediocre-at-best performance the past couple. That said, he must have seen something in him to move so fast, it's not like he had to make a decision on day 1.

I'm far more encouraged by the trajectory of the program today than I was 2 weeks ago, let's say that much. And we are now noticed on a national level like we haven't been since at least Mason's best years. I don't think that can be a bad thing.
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You forget the roller-coaster that is Gopher sports. Just when you are on the top of the world...the roller-coaster takes a steep dive into the abyss. [emoji33]
 

Gopher07 said:
Sensing a lot of cynicism in the last few days around the hire - so, cynics, what are you most cynical about with respect to the last few days? Why?

I'm not here to say you're right or you're wrong - and I get that the program's history would lead most to be skeptical about future changes - but I'm genuinely curious as to what you think and how you see your take helping, whether it's changing perceptions, changing the conversation, or leading to actual changes with the program and the University.

Go for it, this is a safe space from my end.
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I actually haven't sensed the cynicism, but my concerns are:

1) The culture in the University has not changed, and Fleck alone can not change it.
2) We still have a program that has zero support or commitment from the admin - but that could change (?) once the new president takes over this summer.
3) PJ's schtick does not fit with Minnesotans. Maybe he can pull the big stick that is up so many of the "fans" buts so at the end of an exciting game like the Michigan game last year, when we had the ball and a TD would win the game, 1/3 of the stadium was leaving to "beat the traffic". The typical Minnesotan response will be - you mean that game we lost because of the stupid coach - or some such failing to recognize or acknowledge that the fans can make a difference in games.
4) The twin cities press will destroy him if he doesn't get off to a good start for his behavior. Hell they hate and destroy every coach that has ever set foot on a Minnesota sidelines - from the North Stars to the Kicks to the Vikings to the Gophers.
5) The DC hire may turn out to be ok, but it was NOT Elite. I get that he doesn't mean he's only hiring Kirby Smart away from being the head coach at Georgia to be our DC, but if you're going to talk a big game, you better deliver, and he did not deliver on this hire.
6) Fleck, as of right now, is a toss up between the next Urban Meyer or the next Darryl Hazel out of the MAC. Both did some good things in the MAC, we know how Hazel worked out at Purdue.

Most of this is not on Fleck. I think he was a good hire, but I don't think this solves all of our problems.
 


caliGopher said:
I actually haven't sensed the cynicism, but my concerns are:

1) The culture in the University has not changed, and Fleck alone can not change it.
2) We still have a program that has zero support or commitment from the admin - but that could change (?) once the new president takes over this summer.
3) PJ's schtick does not fit with Minnesotans. Maybe he can pull the big stick that is up so many of the "fans" buts so at the end of an exciting game like the Michigan game last year, when we had the ball and a TD would win the game, 1/3 of the stadium was leaving to "beat the traffic". The typical Minnesotan response will be - you mean that game we lost because of the stupid coach - or some such failing to recognize or acknowledge that the fans can make a difference in games.
4) The twin cities press will destroy him if he doesn't get off to a good start for his behavior. Hell they hate and destroy every coach that has ever set foot on a Minnesota sidelines - from the North Stars to the Kicks to the Vikings to the Gophers.
5) The DC hire may turn out to be ok, but it was NOT Elite. I get that he doesn't mean he's only hiring Kirby Smart away from being the head coach at Georgia to be our DC, but if you're going to talk a big game, you better deliver, and he did not deliver on this hire.
6) Fleck, as of right now, is a toss up between the next Urban Meyer or the next Darryl Hazel out of the MAC. Both did some good things in the MAC, we know how Hazel worked out at Purdue.

Most of this is not on Fleck. I think he was a good hire, but I don't think this solves all of our problems.
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Good perspective. I agree. The problem at UMN is higher up, above Fleck.
 

MennoSota said:
Good perspective. I agree. The problem at UMN is higher up, above Fleck.
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Are you referring to the administration that just majorly upped the ante in spending on our head coach and by all appearances on our assistant coaches...or the one that pushed forward with the Athletes Village despite flat fundraising? The U has its share of problems but I don't think that Kaler's or Coyle's commitment to fielding a strong program should be questioned quite as much as it is around here.
 


MNgradinWI said:
If you were an 18 year old kid and TC and Fleck both showed up at your front door and asked you to commit the next 4-5 years of your life to them, who are you most likely to follow? Just saying...that is an easy one and the same answer is why we have a new coach.
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I hear what you're saying and get why you think that way. But I wonder whether there are an equal percentage of kids and their parents who prefer how Claeys would interact with them. Different strokes for different folks. If fleck came in to my home talking like he did at the basketball game, I may find him a phoney or just not my type. It's difficult to figure out. Frankly, I think Kill was somewhere between Claeys and Fleck and I would've probably reacted most favorably to Kill or a guy like Chryst.
 

Those two are definitely a major problem for going forward, but the problems at the top existed before Kaler and will exist after he's replaced this summer. Coyle's complete failure to lead in a crisis should be a major concern even if you want to give him a free pass because he hired Fleck (I firmly believe he should not be given a free pass, and remain disturbed that he still has his job. Kaler, on the other hand, appears to be "on the clock" as they say and it will be a good day when he's gone).
 

year of the gopher said:
Are you referring to the administration that just majorly upped the ante in spending on our head coach and by all appearances on our assistant coaches...or the one that pushed forward with the Athletes Village despite flat fundraising? The U has its share of problems but I don't think that Kaler's or Coyle's commitment to fielding a strong program should be questioned quite as much as it is around here.
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I dunno about majorly upping the ante in spending on the head coach. Middle of the pack for the conference. NW pays Fitzgerald more.
 

year of the gopher said:
Are you referring to the administration that just majorly upped the ante in spending on our head coach and by all appearances on our assistant coaches...or the one that pushed forward with the Athletes Village despite flat fundraising? The U has its share of problems but I don't think that Kaler's or Coyle's commitment to fielding a strong program should be questioned quite as much as it is around here.
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Are you referring to Saruman and Grima Wormtongue, the UMN President and AD?
 



btowngopher said:
I dunno about majorly upping the ante in spending on the head coach. Middle of the pack for the conference. NW pays Fitzgerald more.
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Was the head coach pay upped or not? Simple question. Spoiler alert...the answer is yes, they did up the pay at The "U". Significantly.
 


btowngopher said:
I dunno about majorly upping the ante in spending on the head coach. Middle of the pack for the conference. NW pays Fitzgerald more.
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Are you sure NW pays Fitz more? The source I found actually has Fleck making just a tad more than Fitz. Either way it's pretty close.
 

Word said:
Are you sure NW pays Fitz more? The source I found actually has Fleck making just a tad more than Fitz. Either way it's pretty close.
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Can someone clarify Fleck's compensation? I read that his guaranteed base is $1mm. I assume incentives make up the rest. Are most of those incentives no-brainers? Is it just as likely he makes $2mm v. the $3.75 or whatever the max is? Thanks for the help.
 



btowngopher said:
I dunno about majorly upping the ante in spending on the head coach. Middle of the pack for the conference. NW pays Fitzgerald more.
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Should they have given their #1 candidate $5M/year even though he would sign for $3.6M? The point is, we went from the bottom of the barrel to middle of the pack. With success, I'm confident they'll be willing to go higher as needed.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I think there are very people on here that don't think he was a good hire and aren't excited about the program (I know there are some). However, some of these quotes are also mocking the over-the-top worship of Flack so far. We have a thread from a poster who is talking about wanting to be a better man because of PJ Fleck (could be satire, hard to tell), we have threads asking which college towns are "elite", we have posters discussing recruiting using logic like "well PJ pulled the offer, he wouldn't have contributed here". It's over-the-top for a lot of people and they are going to mock it. I think most of them are still supporting the program and probably even don't mind Fleck. It's the hero worship. . . puke.
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I think Fleck was probably was a good enough hire, and better than a 63 year old Les MIles, but I have difficulty hearing the propaganda daily. I guess if he wins we all will like/ worship him. We all would all have liked Bret Bielema if he somehow ended up here and won, or the current UW coach had Maturi had the courage to hire him in 2011, regardless of UW roots. Winning cures all issues.

Regardless, I recall that Patrick Ruesse wrote around the time Brewster had the team at 6-1 in year 2, right before the Northwestern Homecoming game when Brewster's defense made some backup NU QB look like Mike Vick or Steve Young in his prime. Ruesse wrote about 'hogwash" and how if a grumpy old man like Pat did not buy into any of it, so what. If the players and recruits bought into the Brewster "hogwash" then it was all that really matters.

the Brewster shine wore off with the Northwestern homecoming meltdown, but the point is valid. It really does not matter if I like the PJ Fleck showmanship and marketing BS, if he can bring in players and motivate them, then that is all that matters.

My issue is that Claeys had the foundation of a very powerful defensive system in place and it only would have gotten better with time. The combination of finding the right kind of recruits and knowing the X and O side like Claeys and Sawvel did was a big asset. An "elite" defense can cover up a lot of worts and win a lot of games (9-4 this year). I hated watching the awful Gopher defenses over the years (other than 1999 and maybe 2003- no LB depth killed us vs Michigan in the meltdown and that would not have been a problem this year), and losing that great strength is very distressing to me.

Maybe PJ Fleck and the Ark guy can build a good defense, but I hope they at least watch the tape, look at the remaining talent and try to build on what Claeys and Sawvel had started on Defense here.
 

year of the gopher said:
Should they have given their #1 candidate $5M/year even though he would sign for $3.6M? The point is, we went from the bottom of the barrel to middle of the pack. With success, I'm confident they'll be willing to go higher as needed.
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No they shouldn't have. I'm just saying, we're a middle of the conference team, and are now paying middle of the pack money for a coach. I don't think that's a "major upping of the ante". I'm not sure I am that confident we will go higher as needed. We'll see if that time comes for Fleck. Hopefully it does, and they do pony up.
 

Unregistered User said:
Was the head coach pay upped or not? Simple question. Spoiler alert...the answer is yes, they did up the pay at The "U". Significantly.
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They upped the pay, not the ante. Paying mid level cash to coach a mid level team isn't a huge commitment to winning. If Fleck is successful then we'll see if they actually up the ante.
 

MNgradinWI said:
If you were an 18 year old kid and TC and Fleck both showed up at your front door and asked you to commit the next 4

Sorry, but I have been around coaches and managers that present themselves like PJ Fleck and I'd sign up with a guy like Claeys most of the time. Maybe 17 year old recruits do not think like I do, but I'd much prefer to line behind a quitter, less bombastic person (fat or not) who showed me that he knew his football.
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year of the gopher said:
Are you referring to the administration that just majorly upped the ante in spending on our head coach and by all appearances on our assistant coaches...or the one that pushed forward with the Athletes Village despite flat fundraising? The U has its share of problems but I don't think that Kaler's or Coyle's commitment to fielding a strong program should be questioned quite as much as it is around here.
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And this conundrum is where my cynicism comes into play. Because I truly feel like we have two guys that understand the cost to win...but they are so slimy it makes my skin crawl.

The good news is if we can keep our coaches coaching and players playing we shouldn't have to deal with them too much.

Go Gophers!
 

It sucks to lose proven quality B1G defensive coaches like Claeys and Sawvel. That pretty much sums up my bad mood in all this.
 

I am not cynical because:
-His track record concretely shows that he is deserving of a promotion to a Power 5 head coach position

I am cynical because:
-His demeanor and use of buzzwords feels like he is insulting my intelligence
-Though I admit it isn't totally right, deep down I feel like a regrettable tweet just cost this University approximately 20 million dollars, with no real indication one way or the other that things will improve
 

Word said:
You have to start somewhere.[/]

True. And while I think this may be a good piece of the puzzle, building a house starting with the roof can be done, but it is a lot harder than constructing a solid foundation upon which to build your house. If the foundation is weak (spineless, simpering, cover your ass weak) no mater how great the materials you use, the house will develop structural problems.
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oak_street1981 said:
MNgradinWI said:
If you were an 18 year old kid and TC and Fleck both showed up at your front door and asked you to commit the next 4

Sorry, but I have been around coaches and managers that present themselves like PJ Fleck and I'd sign up with a guy like Claeys most of the time. Maybe 17 year old recruits do not think like I do, but I'd much prefer to line behind a quitter, less bombastic person (fat or not) who showed me that he knew his football.
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I am in my late 40's and agree with you to a point. Today's teenagers?? They like neon uniforms and glowing helmets. They like the sizzle not the quiet guy who just entered the door. Fleck also just won 13 games and had his team playing
in the Cotton bowl. I think if it was Tim Brewster who never coached in college, I get what you are saying. I have worked in sales my entire life and can spot the "canned lines" and fake enthusiasm a mile away. However, if the guy can walk the walk not just talk the talk...people will follow.
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Bump
Gotta keep the cynic thread at the top. Too much fluffy bunny threads being created today. ??
 

Kaler on KSTP throwing Claeys or Coyle under the bus...depending on who you believe. The cynic in me says this is going to be a problem long term.
 

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