The cynic thread

[Gopher07]

Sensing a lot of cynicism in the last few days around the hire - so, cynics, what are you most cynical about with respect to the last few days? Why?

I'm not here to say you're right or you're wrong - and I get that the program's history would lead most to be skeptical about future changes - but I'm genuinely curious as to what you think and how you see your take helping, whether it's changing perceptions, changing the conversation, or leading to actual changes with the program and the University.

Go for it, this is a safe space from my end.

 

[fmlizard]

I'm not really cynical and think he's as good a hire as any, but the part that most concerns me:

Fleck's energy and force of will were enough to recruit better players than other MAC schools at WMU, so he started beating everyone in that league. MAC and non-p5 schools are pretty fungible in terms of historical prestige and resources. That's not true of B1G or P5 teams. He will definitely raise our recruiting rankings and win a few big recruiting prizes but he still won't be outgunning Michigan and OSU and Penn State on a consistent basis. He can get to the upper crust through will and energy but is going to need to develop and coach guys big time to reach the very top here.

That, and I still think TC was scapegoated and got a raw deal, even if PJ is better for us in the long game.

 

[Gopher07]

I'm not really cynical and think he's as good a hire as any, but the part that most concerns me:

Fleck's energy and force of will were enough to recruit better players than other MAC schools at WMU, so he started beating everyone in that league. MAC and non-p5 schools are pretty fungible in terms of historical prestige and resources. That's not true of B1G or P5 teams. He will definitely raise our recruiting rankings and win a few big recruiting prizes but he still won't be outgunning Michigan and OSU and Penn State on a consistent basis. He can get to the upper crust through will and energy but is going to need to develop and coach guys big time to reach the very top here.

That, and I still think TC was scapegoated and got a raw deal, even if PJ is better for us in the long game.

Thanks. Appreciate your honest response

 

[nsmike]

Let's just say that I'm not sold on P. J., I see a lot of sizzle, but until I see the steak it could just as well be liver. Fleck has admitted that, he's not an X's and O's guy, so he will need good Coordinators. I'm not exactly comfortable with Robb Smith as DC, but I could be wrong, trying to get Ed Warinner seems to be grasping at straws. I'm reserving judgement, but until the staff is in place and the recruiting class signed, I'll have to deal with my gut feeling that this might not go well.

 

[Rescooter]

Sensing a lot of cynicism in the last few days around the hire - so, cynics, what are you most cynical about with respect to the last few days? Why?

I'm not here to say you're right or you're wrong - and I get that the program's history would lead most to be skeptical about future changes - but I'm genuinely curious as to what you think and how you see your take helping, whether it's changing perceptions, changing the conversation, or leading to actual changes with the program and the University.

Go for it, this is a safe space from my end.

First off, I'll state why I'm encouraged: Fleck has energy, enthusiasm and a magnetic personality that really motivates people. I love that. He also seems to know what type of recruits he needs to get the job done (Western Michigan rebuild) and seems to surround himself with good people. The guy is a worker, dreamer, and all-round nice guy.

Why am I cynical (and please someone, talk me off the ledge): The culture at the U of M athletic department is in very bad shape. Keep in mind that this year we'll get about 1/3 of Fleck players, but the other 2/3 were willing to walk away from a Bowl Game based on faulty logic. The peer pressure to conform to elitism and athletic entitlement was/is rampant and strong. All this festered in a few strong personalities and became "group think". Plus we had a hands off coach that didn't have the guts or desire to stand up to it and you've got a real cultural problem.

Culture takes years to change and takes with it many that are unwilling to change. We would likely need to see a large turnover of players, support staff and well-meaning alumni to accomplish the complete turning that is necessary. I honestly don't think Fleck will get the backing he needs and even if he did, he may want to leave that cultural cesspool for something bigger.

I want this guy to succeed in the worst way and also the entire U of M athletic department to succeed, but it's bigger than any one person can do. Add on top of this that I've heard things in the past like this that I like, only to be disappointed.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

"cynical" would be saying that "this guy can't win at MN."

I see myself as being realistic. I'm not a big fan of the antics, the hype and the catch-phrases. But - I don't know what kind of D1 coach that fleck is going to turn into. So, I am in "wait-and-see" mode. I'll Judge Fleck as a coach next year - not this year. Have to give the guy time to hire his coaches and install his system. having said that, 2017 is going to be a transition year. Fleck will be largely coaching players that were recruited by other coaches to play a different system. You can't truly judge a coach until he's had a chance to coach his own players.

I'm just not going to proclaim this guy as the savior until he's actually had a chance to coach the team. We know he can give motivational speeches. We don't know if he's going to be successful at a major D1 program.........yet.

 

[Gopher07]

"cynical" would be saying that "this guy can't win at MN."

I see myself as being realistic. I'm not a big fan of the antics, the hype and the catch-phrases. But - I don't know what kind of D1 coach that fleck is going to turn into. So, I am in "wait-and-see" mode. I'll Judge Fleck as a coach next year - not this year. Have to give the guy time to hire his coaches and install his system. having said that, 2017 is going to be a transition year. Fleck will be largely coaching players that were recruited by other coaches to play a different system. You can't truly judge a coach until he's had a chance to coach his own players.

I'm just not going to proclaim this guy as the savior until he's actually had a chance to coach the team. We know he can give motivational speeches. We don't know if he's going to be successful at a major D1 program.........yet.

Thanks for the take. I would agree that seems realistic. And there are realistic reasons to be skeptical

The feeling of cynicism (maybe it's just the way I'm reading sarcasm?) for me is coming from the sorts of comments like:

Highest rated recruit so far was a Claeys recruit - Blaise Andries

Step it up Fleck, let's see how Elite you are and top Claeys.

I'd look at the Clemson and Alabama commits. They're elite.

We are gonna flip Alabamas class so they can play for a real ELITE team.

No way. We're on our way now being elite and all.

 

[bottlebass]

I'm being cynical to counter act the people around here jumping with joy at hiring a younger Urban Meyer. Fleck may turn out to be that good, and if he is I'd bet he is gone in a few years. But maybe he'll turn out to be a bust. No one knows and that is why I'm not high on this hire. We just won 9 games for the 2nd time in pretty much forever. Fleck is the coach you hire to re-build a program as he is proven to be able to do that, all be it at a lower level. He has not proven he can take a program to the next level which is winning championships and what we need. We were on the cusp and it was possible with Claeys. Coyle and Kaler just took that away from us and thrust us into the unknown. Whether we come up better or worse no one knows.

 

[Winnipegopher]

Well you asked, so I will answer.

I am not a fan of the "schtick". I.E. His energy, phrases and elite mantras.

In Fleck's public persona, I see a character and not a fully developed person. Brewster was who he was (a loud, gregarious, somewhat arrogant personality), but to me Fleck is so over the top that he appears to be a carefully crafted caricature- like he is always acting. I just don't see that as sustainable to the players, fans and especially media.

I hope I am completely wrong and will hope for the best.

I also won't become a Gopherhole Fleck hater. I didn't like the Claeys bashers and felt they added little to the board.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Thanks for the take. I would agree that seems realistic. And there are realistic reasons to be skeptical

The feeling of cynicism (maybe it's just the way I'm reading sarcasm?) for me is coming from the sorts of comments like:

I think there are very people on here that don't think he was a good hire and aren't excited about the program (I know there are some). However, some of these quotes are also mocking the over-the-top worship of Flack so far. We have a thread from a poster who is talking about wanting to be a better man because of PJ Fleck (could be satire, hard to tell), we have threads asking which college towns are "elite", we have posters discussing recruiting using logic like "well PJ pulled the offer, he wouldn't have contributed here". It's over-the-top for a lot of people and they are going to mock it. I think most of them are still supporting the program and probably even don't mind Fleck. It's the hero worship. . . puke.

 

[Gopher07]

Well you asked, so I will answer.

I am not a fan of the "schtick". I.E. His energy, phrases and elite mantras.

In Fleck's public persona, I see a character and not a fully developed person. Brewster was who he was (a loud, gregarious, somewhat arrogant personality), but to me Fleck is so over the top that he appears to be a carefully crafted caricature- like he is always acting. I just don't see that as sustainable to the players, fans and especially media.

I hope I am completely wrong and will hope for the best.

I also won't become a Gopherhole Fleck hater. I didn't like the Claeys bashers and felt they added little to the board.

Thanks for your take

 

[GFBfan]

The culture at the U of M athletic department is in very bad shape. Keep in mind that this year we'll get about 1/3 of Fleck players, but the other 2/3 were willing to walk away from a Bowl Game based on faulty logic. The peer pressure to conform to elitism and athletic entitlement was/is rampant and strong. All this festered in a few strong personalities and became "group think". Plus we had a hands off Athletic Director that didn't have the guts or desire to stand up to it and you've got a real cultural problem.

Fixed this for you.

Their logic behind the boycott was not faulty.
The fact that they stuck together and had one voice during that time has me believing that they are a very unified group. Their effort in the bowl game shows me they were able to come together as a team and get a victory even with all the turmoil that was going on. If Fleck is what he says he is or what has been said about him, he should be able to win this team over and build off that victory.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I'm being cynical to counter act the people around here jumping with joy at hiring a younger Urban Meyer. Fleck may turn out to be that good, and if he is I'd bet he is gone in a few years. But maybe he'll turn out to be a bust. No one knows and that is why I'm not high on this hire. We just won 9 games for the 2nd time in pretty much forever. Fleck is the coach you hire to re-build a program as he is proven to be able to do that, all be it at a lower level. He has not proven he can take a program to the next level which is winning championships and what we need. We were on the cusp and it was possible with Claeys. Coyle and Kaler just took that away from us and thrust us into the unknown. Whether we come up better or worse no one knows.

Do we really know what kind of coach Fleck is yet? His head coaching resume is short but he rebuilt a struggling program and won his conference championship this season.

To me, Mason and Kill were both rebuilders....guys very skilled at taking a struggling program and laying a solid foundation. However both of those guys don't seem to have that ability to take things to the next level. I honestly believe Claeys would have followed a similar route if given more time.

 

[bottlebass]

Do we really know what kind of coach Fleck is yet? His head coaching resume is short but he rebuilt a struggling program and won his conference championship this season.

To me, Mason and Kill were both rebuilders....guys very skilled at taking a struggling program and laying a solid foundation. However both of those guys don't seem to have that ability to take things to the next level. I honestly believe Claeys would have followed a similar route if given more time.

Nope and that is exactly my point. Thanks for proving it.

 

[GoldenRodents]

If Mitch could have gotten the late TD against Michigan last year, none of this would have happened.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Nope and that is exactly my point. Thanks for proving it.

You Said: "Fleck is the coach you hire to re-build a program as he is proven to be able to do that, all be it at a lower level. He has not proven he can take a program to the next level which is winning championships and what we need."

Which is what I was replying to because you flat out said what you think Fleck is as a coach. So not really sure how my comment proved your point.

 

[bottlebass]

You Said: "Fleck is the coach you hire to re-build a program as he is proven to be able to do that, all be it at a lower level. He has not proven he can take a program to the next level which is winning championships and what we need."

Which is what I was replying to because you flat out said what you think Fleck is as a coach. So not really sure how my comment proved your point.

It's not what I think he is, it is what he is to this point. The only thing he has done as a HC is rebuild a lower level program. Can he be the guy to take a major program to the next level no one knows. There is no history to show he can. So until then this is a negative for me.

 

[scools12]

I'm being cynical to counter act the people around here jumping with joy at hiring a younger Urban Meyer. Fleck may turn out to be that good, and if he is I'd bet he is gone in a few years. But maybe he'll turn out to be a bust. No one knows and that is why I'm not high on this hire. We just won 9 games for the 2nd time in pretty much forever. Fleck is the coach you hire to re-build a program as he is proven to be able to do that, all be it at a lower level. He has not proven he can take a program to the next level which is winning championships and what we need. We were on the cusp and it was possible with Claeys. Coyle and Kaler just took that away from us and thrust us into the unknown. Whether we come up better or worse no one knows.

It's not what I think he is, it is what he is to this point. The only thing he has done as a HC is rebuild a lower level program. Can he be the guy to take a major program to the next level no one knows. There is no history to show he can. So until then this is a negative for me.

What exactly is your point? Seems to be Claeys could have taken the program to the next level even through there is no history to show he can. Yet this is what you find as a negative with Fleck?

 

[MNVCGUY]

It's not what I think he is, it is what he is to this point. The only thing he has done as a HC is rebuild a lower level program. Can he be the guy to take a major program to the next level no one knows. There is no history to show he can. So until then this is a negative for me.

Fair enough - With that criteria then how do you support Kill or Claeys both of whom have no track record of taking a major program to the next level or winning championships? Heck Kill didn't even win the MAC, he just got to the title game and lost before bolting to MN. Fleck at the very least went undefeated and won his conference championship.

 

[Hates Monikers]

I'm just in wait-and-see mode. I've lived through 8 coaching changes and I'm done being excited about them. We've seen energy here before, and I've bought into it. This change is different from the others, which occurred because the program seemed to be in a downward spiral -- or already at rock bottom. This staff had been winning and had their highest win total this year, and probably our best bowl win since 1961.

We're coming off a 9-win season. I guess we hired Fleck to win more. I'm all in on that mindset. Cal firing Sonny Dykes because they have Chip Kelly in their pocket makes perfect sense to me. But is bringing a guy up from the MAC the same thing? This isn't a rebuild; I preferred Miles because I feel like his style and track record could keep this moving and add to it. Not that Fleck can't, but we'll have to wait and see.

I'm mostly concerned about the defense. We've had offenses at the U that could score throughout different periods in our history. We never had a defense that could stop anybody until Kill/Claeys/Sawvel came. On that note, Fleck will have to prove to me he's better.

In my opinion, Fleck was the best of the "this guy looks good let's hope it works out here" field. But we'll still have to wait and see if it works out.

 

[Tater]

My cynicism:
- I'm worried that Fleck is another MAC coach that can't transition to the Big 10. Can he win with less? We know he can win when he has the best recruits in his conference--as great as he is at recruiting, he very likely will not (or maybe never) have the top Big Ten recruiting class at Minnesota.
- I think that success comes down to resources & environment. College football/sports has one of the most lopsided playing fields in terms of resources/environment. It is amazing we ever beat tOSU, Michigan, Penn State given how much resources they have and support in comparison to our school. This is a structural issue and a big reason why Minnesota has struggled over many, many years. There is no parity in resources similar to what the NFL does.
- We're in a pro sports town. When I was younger, I thought this was a lame excuse. Now, having traveled more to big college atmospheres and towns, I realize that most all big college programs are in areas where the college team is the main event. As much as I love the Vikings, if they would have left a few years back, it would have helped the Gopher football team. At Tuscaloosa, Columbus, Happy Valley, Ann Arbor, etc., the Student-Athlete football players are gods. Here, they are not. The whole world revolves around these programs in major college towns. These cities bleed their college colors. Not as much here.

Positives:
+ Most of my cynicism has nothing to do with Fleck. I have no reason to doubt his success and I do believe past success normally translates to future success.
+ Fleck built a garbage program up to 13-1. Have we ever hired a coach with that kind of record?
+ On a related note, we're hiring an experienced coach with a good pedigree. In the past, when we've hired experienced and successful coaches it has lead to improvement of the program. Kill had won his conferences in the past (1x at NIU, 3x at SIU), as had Lou Holtz. Just go to wiki and look at the crappy/mediocre/non-existent records of our past Gopher Football coaches before they coached at the U. It is no wonder we haven't won big for many years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Golden_Gophers_football
+ Finally, Fleck seems unique in a good way. His personality is undeniable. He has vision, can build a program up, and motivates players and the fanbase. He may be exactly what the U needs.

 

[bottlebass]

What exactly is your point? Seems to be Claeys could have taken the program to the next level even through there is no history to show he can. Yet this is what you find as a negative with Fleck?

Claeys has proven he can win 9 games at this level. I don't know if Claeys would have taken us to the Rose Bowl, no one does. I'm not saying I think Claeys for sure would have. I'm saying we were right there this year. Everyone is acting like we won't take a step back with the new coach. There will be growing pains. Am I expecting a 2 win season type of growing pains? No. But for the next couple years until Fleck gets his guys in and everyone gets use to his system I doubt we get to 9 wins.

 

[Gopher07]

+ On a related note, we're hiring an experienced coach with a good pedigree. In the past, when we've hired experienced and successful coaches it has lead to improvement of the program. Kill had won his conferences in the past (1x at NIU, 3x at SIU), as had Lou Holtz. Just go to wiki and look at the crappy/mediocre/non-existent records of our past Gopher Football coaches before they coached at the U. It is no wonder we haven't won big for many years.

Thanks for sharing. Just one point, Kill never won a conference title at NIU. He won the MAC West but lost the championship game before coming to MN. The last coach we hired with an FBS/Division 1A conference championship was Holtz (won one with NC State and one with Arkansas).

 

[bottlebass]

Fair enough - With that criteria then how do you support Kill or Claeys both of whom have no track record of taking a major program to the next level or winning championships? Heck Kill didn't even win the MAC, he just got to the title game and lost before bolting to MN. Fleck at the very least went undefeated and won his conference championship.

So he's slightly better than the kill hire because he won one more game at a lower level? It still puts him on par with the kill hire which we made when we needed to fully re-build. We are now re-built. Or it felt that way until Coyle and kaler bulldozed our bricks. I just wanted someone more proven. Again, I"m not saying I don't think Fleck has any chance to take us farther. I'm just not as excited at others at an unproven coach.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

First off, I'll state why I'm encouraged: Fleck has energy, enthusiasm and a magnetic personality that really motivates people. I love that. He also seems to know what type of recruits he needs to get the job done (Western Michigan rebuild) and seems to surround himself with good people. The guy is a worker, dreamer, and all-round nice guy.

Why am I cynical (and please someone, talk me off the ledge): The culture at the U of M athletic department is in very bad shape. Keep in mind that this year we'll get about 1/3 of Fleck players, but the other 2/3 were willing to walk away from a Bowl Game based on faulty logic. The peer pressure to conform to elitism and athletic entitlement was/is rampant and strong. All this festered in a few strong personalities and became "group think". Plus we had a hands off coach that didn't have the guts or desire to stand up to it and you've got a real cultural problem.

Culture takes years to change and takes with it many that are unwilling to change. We would likely need to see a large turnover of players, support staff and well-meaning alumni to accomplish the complete turning that is necessary. I honestly don't think Fleck will get the backing he needs and even if he did, he may want to leave that cultural cesspool for something bigger.

I want this guy to succeed in the worst way and also the entire U of M athletic department to succeed, but it's bigger than any one person can do. Add on top of this that I've heard things in the past like this that I like, only to be disappointed.

Good post. I wonder if many folks here have ever worked at companies that don't have a great corporate culture (don't care enough about the customers specifically)? I am only a fan of Gopher football, but I agree with you that there were red flags this season with Claeys. Turning around a culture with a football program is hard, but I will support Fleck and Coyle in getting that done by keeping tickets and talking positively about the program with folks when I can.

 

[btowngopher]

The local media is already negative on him. But VERY CLEARLY his personality is sustainable with his players. I don't get the fans here, who cares what a coaches shtick is. I want a winner. If you want to hate him for his style instead of his results that's fine. But his style does not indicate poor future results. Pete Carroll is one of many examples of similarly "shticky" coaches who have won.

 

[btowngopher]

Claeys has proven he can win 9 games at this level. I don't know if Claeys would have taken us to the Rose Bowl, no one does. I'm not saying I think Claeys for sure would have. I'm saying we were right there this year. Everyone is acting like we won't take a step back with the new coach. There will be growing pains. Am I expecting a 2 win season type of growing pains? No. But for the next couple years until Fleck gets his guys in and everyone gets use to his system I doubt we get to 9 wins.

With someone else's roster.

 

[scools12]

Claeys has proven he can win 9 games at this level. I don't know if Claeys would have taken us to the Rose Bowl, no one does. I'm not saying I think Claeys for sure would have. I'm saying we were right there this year. Everyone is acting like we won't take a step back with the new coach. There will be growing pains. Am I expecting a 2 win season type of growing pains? No. But for the next couple years until Fleck gets his guys in and everyone gets use to his system I doubt we get to 9 wins.

Agree with the thought there very well could be a step back from 9 wins. No guarantees with Claeys back next year the team was going to get back to 9 wins either.

 

[CentralGopher]

I'm skeptical that all of his energy, enthusiasm, and antics will have a long lasting effect on the program. I think it may wear off/out eventually before we reach where we want to be or before he leaves for greener pastures. I am struggling to find another coach that has that kind of rah rah style that has his team at the top. I could be wrong on that though. Harbaugh comes to mind but even he isnt that over the top.


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#coacheslivesmatter

 

[bottlebass]

Agree with the thought there very well could be a step back from 9 wins. No guarantees with Claeys back next year the team was going to get back to 9 wins either.

Agreed, I was worried about the unknowns anyway (QB, defensive players suspended etc). But no matter what they were always in those games and with Claeys as the coach I felt like we had a chance to win any game, no matter what.