The case for and against Leach

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scools12 said:
I didn't compare them as coaches I compared their systems.

You seem to think Leach will just be able to show up, plug in his system, recruit the same type of players to run the system as he did at TT and suddenly the Gophers are going to start putting up 60 a game. That is a huge assumption many are making with Leach.

IMO Leach would be a terrible hire. The fact that so many on this board want Leach makes me even more convinced it would be terrible hire. Hopefully Maturi goes in a completely different direction.
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I'm convinced that he would be great hire because you don't want him and compared him to Jim Wacker. Leach would have this offense ticking in no time in my opinion. If you are so smrt tell us how we are going to consistently compete with Iowa and Wisconsin with the power running game when we are already so far behind?
 

scools12 said:
I didn't compare them as coaches I compared their systems.

You seem to think Leach will just be able to show up, plug in his system, recruit the same type of players to run the system as he did at TT and suddenly the Gophers are going to start putting up 60 a game. That is a huge assumption many are making with Leach.

IMO Leach would be a terrible hire. The fact that so many on this board want Leach makes me even more convinced it would be terrible hire. Hopefully Maturi goes in a completely different direction.
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the spread is one of the easiest systems to learn so i think it can be easy for gray. it would lead to points being scored. wacker only had success at the d2 level and the style wacker coached compared to leach is not the same.

i understand that those of us on gopherhole are not as bright as you because your obviously a great football mind and the pound the rock mentality is better than throwing the ball. all those 1,000 yard rushers prove that running the ball leads to big ten championships.

we have never had defense at minnesota in my lifetime, what makes you think a new coach is going to walk in and all a sudden we are a dominate defense? this state needs to have success asap, there is no patience with the gopher fanbase. the next guy will have 2 years before the complaining comes again. not sure we can build a dominate defense in 2 years. we all seem to believe gray is a stud at qb and the quickest chance for instant success is spread it out and throw the ball.

leach runs a very basic spread its only like 5 formations it was covered by espn magazine a few years ago. scoring a ton of points will be easier with what we have than shutting teams down. im convinced at this point if we brought in a guy like leach we could win the big ten with an average defense and a high scoring offense. with a guy like gray they can run the option out of the shotgun with a guy like alipate they can run the shotgun like harrell. i love the idea of leach at this point. do something different!
 

monk10 said:
How can we be different on defense, or would we just try to be the same.

The current model is have an assignment defense that has a dominating front 4 that has the ability to disguise what their assignments are.
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Try making a team one-dimensional as they try to keep up with you on the scoreboard.
We can find fault with any coach, but Leach coached a big 12 basement dweller to a number one ranking a few years ago.
 

drinks at Northpoint said:
Try making a team one-dimensional as they try to keep up with you on the scoreboard.
We can find fault with any coach, but Leach coached a big 12 basement dweller to a number one ranking a few years ago.
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I guess maybe I'm missing your point. I thought the idea was to be unique and not the same as our rivals.

We could be unique by running a 3-3-5 defensive set? Why is your focus on offense?
 

scools12 said:
I didn't compare them as coaches I compared their systems.

You seem to think Leach will just be able to show up, plug in his system, recruit the same type of players to run the system as he did at TT and suddenly the Gophers are going to start putting up 60 a game. That is a huge assumption many are making with Leach.

IMO Leach would be a terrible hire. The fact that so many on this board want Leach makes me even more convinced it would be terrible hire. Hopefully Maturi goes in a completely different direction.
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Your argument could be used against any coach, no matter the style.
Do you really think (insert coaches name here) is going to come here, install their system, and start winning games?
Past performance is no gaurantee of future results, but it is a good indicator. Leach installed his offense in OK and they went from 101 in the country in offense to 8th in one year. They won the national championship the next year. This was done at a school with a much deeper history of running the ball than ours.
 


monk10 said:
I guess maybe I'm missing your point. I thought the idea was to be unique and not the same as our rivals.

We could be unique by running a 3-3-5 defensive set? Why is your focus on offense?
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Help me understand what you are looking for? Are you talking scheme or philosophy?
 

I thought your point was that we shouldn't model our rivals and therefore that was a compelling reason to go to the Air Raid. We should be doing something different. I was wondering why you made not mention of our defensive scheme? (Again I could be missing your point)
 

Leach started as my number one candidate (that we could probably get, anyway), and this thread gets me even more excited about the idea.

To those that say Leach couldn't recruit up here, I completely disagree. I think Leach would give us a huge recruiting advantage. Say we try to become WI/IA junior. Then we have to recruit the same guys as WI/IA. And those are recruiting battles we won't consistently win. If we have Leach, we can recruit different types of players and pitch a different system to players. Instead of battling established programs for the same types of players, we can go after our own recruits or have something else to offer recruits. That's a huge advantage.

And the idea that we don't have skill players up here doesn't hold up. Sure, we don't have anywhere near as much as TX. But in the last few years, MN has produced Gilreath, Floyd, and McNeal. And, if we get Leach, and you're a WR recruit from the Midwest, Minnesota would look really appealing. Would you rather be part of a power running game, or Air Raid?
 

I would be very surprised if Gray could play QB in Leach's Air Raid offense.
 




monk10 said:
I thought your point was that we shouldn't model our rivals and therefore that was a compelling reason to go to the Air Raid. We should be doing something different. I was wondering why you made not mention of our defensive scheme? (Again I could be missing your point)
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I sense you are trying to put me in a box. :)
I believe there are far more systems and philosophies on the offensive side of the ball to choose from.
My preference would be for an attacking 4-3 defense that presses on the corners.
This may not be what you want. I don't think there is a defensive equivalent of comparing "pound the rock" with the "air raid".
What is your idea for the defense if you could pick your dream defense?
 

lakesgopher said:
why
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Look at who has started at QB for Leach. 4th and 5th year seniors that almost no other program wanted. They have not gone on to the NFL (with few exceptions). His QB doesn't have to have the best arm or be the most athletic player. They need to be smart and make the correct pre-snap and post-snap reads. They are almost more game managers than true gunslingers.

Gray fits into the spread style that Oregon, Michigan, et al use where QB athleticism is THE attribute they look for. That is not Mike Leach's system.

P.S. To be clear I have no idea if Gray would work in Leach's system or not. But if he did, his success would have little to do with his athleticism and up to this point that is the only quality he seems to have shown on the football field (granted he hasn't had an opportunity to do otherwise).
 

monk10 said:
I guess maybe I'm missing your point. I thought the idea was to be unique and not the same as our rivals.

We could be unique by running a 3-3-5 defensive set? Why is your focus on offense?
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Okay we can talk defense. 3-3-5 biggest weakness is against the run and requires speed.
 



drinks at Northpoint said:
I sense you are trying to put me in a box. :)
I believe there are far more systems and philosophies on the offensive side of the ball to choose from. I don't think there is a defensive equivalent of comparing "pound the rock" with the "air raid".
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5-2-4
4-3-4
4-2-5
3-4-4
3-3-5

1 gap, 2 gap, LB Blitzes, CB Blitzes, Safety blitzes, amoeba, slanting, zone blitzes.
man, man free, tampa 2, soft cover 2, cover 3, cover 4.

These are all different styles/techniques you could run on defense I can think of...there are ALOT of options out there.
 

GopherGack said:
5-2-4
4-3-4
4-2-5
3-4-4
3-3-5

1 gap, 2 gap, LB Blitzes, CB Blitzes, Safety blitzes, amoeba, slanting, zone blitzes.
man, man free, tampa 2, soft cover 2, cover 3, cover 4.

These are all different styles/techniques you could run on defense I can think of...there are ALOT of options out there.
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Other than letting us all know of your extensive knowledge of defensive formations, what is your point?
 

drinks at Northpoint said:
I sense you are trying to put me in a box. :)
I believe there are far more systems and philosophies on the offensive side of the ball to choose from.
My preference would be for an attacking 4-3 defense that presses on the corners.
This may not be what you want. I don't think there is a defensive equivalent of comparing "pound the rock" with the "air raid".
What is your idea for the defense if you could pick your dream defense?
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You are correct Northpoint. Offenses have far more variations than defense. Now, a D-cord might argue this is not true but to us fans it is the case. I'm sure we could name a bunch of defensive formations like 4-3, 3-4, 3-3-5, 3-2-6 or a 4-6 bear but these are just formations. There are very few cool names for defensive philosophies and teams are known more for their offensive identities.
 


GopherGack said:
5-2-4
4-3-4
4-2-5
3-4-4
3-3-5

1 gap, 2 gap, LB Blitzes, CB Blitzes, Safety blitzes, amoeba, slanting, zone blitzes.
man, man free, tampa 2, soft cover 2, cover 3, cover 4.

These are all different styles/techniques you could run on defense I can think of...there are ALOT of options out there.
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Most defenses use all of these formations, cover schemes and blitzes. What is your point?
 

lakesgopher said:
why
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Because Gray doesn't look anything like Graham Harrell, Kliff Kingsbury, or B.J. Symons in his ability to throw the football. Gray would probably be more suited to the kind of offense currently being run by Auburn with Cam Newton, Northwestern with Dan Persa, or Ohio State with Terrelle Pryor.

The Air Raid is "Pass first. Pass second. Think about running but pass anyway third." I don't think that's who Gray is as a player.

Maybe Leach could tweak it for Gray. But the Air Raid as practiced at Texas Tech was a quick throw, accuracy-based offense. I don't think that suits Gray's strengths.
 

50PoundHead said:
Because Gray doesn't look anything like Graham Harrell, Kliff Kingsbury, or B.J. Symons in his ability to throw the football. Gray would probably be more suited to the kind of offense currently being run by Auburn with Cam Newton, Northwestern with Dan Persa, or Ohio State with Terrelle Pryor.

The Air Raid is "Pass first. Pass second. Think about running but pass anyway third." I don't think that's who Gray is as a player.

Maybe Leach could tweak it for Gray. But the Air Raid as practiced at Texas Tech was a quick throw, accuracy-based offense. I don't think that suits Gray's strengths.
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Yeah, Gray isn't a classic Air Raid QB. Any offense Gray would run should have designed running plays for the QB. Maybe Leach would change things up but he is far from a natural fit.
 

GopherGack said:
Look at who has started at QB for Leach. 4th and 5th year seniors that almost no other program wanted. They have not gone on to the NFL (with few exceptions). His QB doesn't have to have the best arm or be the most athletic player. They need to be smart and make the correct pre-snap and post-snap reads. They are almost more game managers than true gunslingers.

Gray fits into the spread style that Oregon, Michigan, et al use where QB athleticism is THE attribute they look for. That is not Mike Leach's system.

P.S. To be clear I have no idea if Gray would work in Leach's system or not. But if he did, his success would have little to do with his athleticism and up to this point that is the only quality he seems to have shown on the football field (granted he hasn't had an opportunity to do otherwise).
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what? there are so many things wrong with this post im having a tough time even thinking clearly after reading it.

#1-the gophers ar not in the nfl so i could give a sh** about mike leach sending anyone to the nfl.

#2 graham harrel was a 4 star recruit and it showed when he passed for 13,000+ yards graham was the starter in his sophmore season

#3 gray played in a spread offense in high school, he is very comfortable with it. leach never landed anyone at qb with grays raw ability but that doesnt mean he didnt recruit guys like that and have packages set up for that. you also say gray isnt that guy for leach's system but then you dont know if he could or couldnt. and then you come back with grays athleticism would not help him leach's system.

#4 you dont know what your talking about!!!
 

glovedgopher said:
Most defenses use all of these formations, cover schemes and blitzes. What is your point?
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My only point was a rebuttal to a previous poster who claimed there weren't many options defensively. And while you are correct that defenses use some of those, every defense has a "base" formation and philosophy that they the VAST majority of the time. In the case of the U and most schools in the Big10 that is a 4-3 with either a Cover2 or Cover 3 scheme. I'm just pointing out that we could go to a 3-4 or a 33 stack to be different.
 

50PoundHead said:
Because Gray doesn't look anything like Graham Harrell, Kliff Kingsbury, or B.J. Symons in his ability to throw the football. Gray would probably be more suited to the kind of offense currently being run by Auburn with Cam Newton, Northwestern with Dan Persa, or Ohio State with Terrelle Pryor.

The Air Raid is "Pass first. Pass second. Think about running but pass anyway third." I don't think that's who Gray is as a player.

Maybe Leach could tweak it for Gray. But the Air Raid as practiced at Texas Tech was a quick throw, accuracy-based offense. I don't think that suits Gray's strengths.
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and you base gray's strengths off of his time at wr? gray could be a horrible qb for all i know! what i do know is he grew up in the spread, leach coach's the spread probably better than anyone in the country, and we have never seen the air raid in the big ten. im cool with testing the waters with leach, the big ten is known for all those shut down corners etc so im guessing it would be tough to pass against them...that was sarcasm except when it comes to ohio st;)
 

GopherGack said:
My only point was a rebuttal to a previous poster who claimed there weren't many options defensively. And while you are correct that defenses use some of those, every defense has a "base" formation and philosophy that they the VAST majority of the time. In the case of the U and most schools in the Big10 that is a 4-3 with either a Cover2 or Cover 3 scheme. I'm just pointing out that we could go to a 3-4 or a 33 stack to be different.
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We could go 3-4. I don't think a 3-3-5 stack would work against MSU, Wisky, OSU, Iowa, Nebraska and Penn St.
 

grunkiejr said:
To be fair to Maturi the quote is taken out of context. I listened to the press conference and it wasn't directed at Brewster specifically.

He said, we haven't been to the Rose Bowl in how long? You aren't exactly following Lombardi here.

Brewster was just one of many coaches that Maturi insulted (if you choose to take it that way) or spoke accurately about in a frank manner if you are being honest with yourself.
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Well, you might be right, but Stewart Mandel interpreted it similarly.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/stewart_mandel/10/17/bcs-standings-boise-state/3.html

Perhaps more interesting in that article is the mention of Brady Hoke at San Diego State. He is turning that program around after doing the same at Ball State. I would add Hoke to my list of very good non-BCS head coaches (Sumelin is my #1, Golden #2) that I would like to see wearing the maroon and gold.
 

lakesgopher said:
and you base gray's strengths off of his time at wr? gray could be a horrible qb for all i know! what i do know is he grew up in the spread, leach coach's the spread probably better than anyone in the country, and we have never seen the air raid in the big ten. im cool with testing the waters with leach, the big ten is known for all those shut down corners etc so im guessing it would be tough to pass against them...that was sarcasm except when it comes to ohio st;)
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The read option spread is vastly different than Coach Leach's spread.
 


lakesgopher said:
[/B]

#1-the gophers ar not in the nfl so i could give a sh** about mike leach sending anyone to the nfl.

#2 graham harrel was a 4 star recruit and it showed when he passed for 13,000+ yards graham was the starter in his sophmore season

#3 gray played in a spread offense in high school, he is very comfortable with it. leach never landed anyone at qb with grays raw ability but that doesnt mean he didnt recruit guys like that and have packages set up for that. you also say gray isnt that guy for leach's system but then you dont know if he could or couldnt. and then you come back with grays athleticism would not help him leach's system.

#4 you dont know what your talking about!!!
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#1) I agree with you for the most part. I'll concede that NFL potential has no bearing on College success.

#2) I like you conveniently leave out Symons, Cumbie, Hodges and Potts who were all 4th and 5th year players who put up similarly fantastic numbers in his system. So again, you don't have to be super athletic to play in Leach's system. Quite to the contrary, he seems to play QB's who AREN'T exceptionally athletic. Athleticism seems to be the sole calling card of people who push for Gray and I'm just making the case that Leach's system doesn't require it.

#3) "Gray played in the spread..." that is a worthless comment. There are several different variations of "the spread" each requiring different skill sets. QB's in June Jones and Mike Leach offenses require vastly different skill sets than QB's in RRod's or Chip Kelly's.



So to get back to your original question you seem to be trying to run away from: Why would Gray not be able to play QB in Leach's Air Raid offense?

At this point all we've seen out of Gray is his athleticism. Simply put athleticism is not a required attribute in Leach's QB's. What does seem to be required is intelligence, an understanding of defenses, a high amount of accuracy and good decision making both pre-snap and post-snap. Gray has shown none of those things (perhaps hasn't had the opportunity). That is why he might not be able to play in the Air Raid offense as a QB.
 

lakesgopher said:
with the formations leach ran @ texas tech the spread option is there and its easy to add a few wrinkles here and there. some of you people act like these coaches are robots and ant change their previous styles to fit the players they have or would have.

football is more like checkers and less like chess

http://proxy.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=davie&id=1906892
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I'm not saying that Leach couldn't add in the read option. He's seems like an extremely intelligent guy, and if we were to hire him I'm sure that's what he'd do with MarQueis, but the spread TTU ran with Mike Leach is very, very different than the spread MarQueis played in during high school.
 

For some reason I can't get the quote response to work correctly (it keeps quoting Lakesgopher instead of glovedgopher). So glovedgopher said:

"We could go 3-4. I don't think a 3-3-5 stack would work against MSU, Wisky, OSU, Iowa, Nebraska and Penn St."


I don't have any direct knowledge of anything other than your typical 4-3 defenses. Since this is so far off topic I"m going to start a new thread on why people think an alternative defense would not work here. It'd be great if you could chime in on what your thoughts are and post any links to relevant sites as I'd like to learn more about odd front defenses.
 

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