The Big Ten is weak and other myths...

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bga1

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I see a couple of commonly accepted perceptions that the tournament tells me are off:

1. That the Big Ten was off this year. 3 teams to the Final 8- I think that college basketball is not the same anymore and won't be. When you see the rest of college basketball- the Big Ten looks pretty good. Any of the three remaining teams could win the national championship.

2. You have to get a pile of 5 star players to win big. Today we see that Lavine and Anderson are going pro along with a pile of other potential stars. Emphasis on potential. Very good players that will never be seen at their best in college ball. I'd take a one and done here, but those guys are no guarantee of winning big.

3. The Gophers are light years from having enough talent to be a high end team. Don't laugh- we could go a long way next year if Pitino finds three guys that really fit in with what he is doing.

It will be pretty tough for Pitino to bring in top 25 players in here. But I think he can have us making a run at a Final Four in the next four years with a bunch of top 150 guys that fit and stay three to four years. Illkanen and Jarvis would be a great start.......
 

bga1 said:
I see a couple of commonly accepted perceptions that the tournament tells me are off:

1. That the Big Ten was off this year. 3 teams to the Final 8- I think that college basketball is not the same anymore and won't be. When you see the rest of college basketball- the Big Ten looks pretty good. Any of the three remaining teams could win the national championship.

2. You have to get a pile of 5 star players to win big. Today we see that Lavine and Anderson are going pro along with a pile of other potential stars. Emphasis on potential. Very good players that will never be seen at their best in college ball. I'd take a one and done here, but those guys are no guarantee of winning big.

3. The Gophers are light years from having enough talent to be a high end team. Don't laugh- we could go a long way next year if Pitino finds three guys that really fit in with what he is doing.

It will be pretty tough for Pitino to bring in top 25 players in here. But I think he can have us making a run at a Final Four in the next four years with a bunch of top 150 guys that fit and stay three to four years. Illkanen and Jarvis would be a great start.......
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The BIG is never weak, but it wasn't as strong top to bottom as the previous season and I'd be very surprised if it's not stronger next season. Coach P. and staff need 3 good recruits to get off the bubble, bubble. I don't believe anyone who has followed the program for any length of time, expects Pitino to bring in top 25 recruits.
 

The B1G was stronger (top to bottom; all but one team had at least 6 losses and all but one team had at least 6 wins) this year than last. It might not have been as strong in the middle as past years (only got 6 in the tourney, 4-6 exited early). The league could be stronger next year; it depends on early departures and how the incoming youngsters do. One thing is for certain-no matter how dominant our teams are out-of-conference, we lose national respect once we start beating each other up in the B1G.
 

goldenboy said:
The B1G was stronger (top to bottom; all but one team had at least 6 losses and all but one team had at least 6 wins) this year than last. It might not have been as strong in the middle as past years (only got 6 in the tourney, 4-6 exited early). The league could be stronger next year; it depends on early departures and how the incoming youngsters do. One thing is for certain-no matter how dominant our teams are out-of-conference, we lose national respect once we start beating each other up in the B1G.
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The middle is included when you use the expression top to bottom. This would have been the worst Gopher team I've ever seen make the dance, and we would never have been in the conversation, if we hadn't beat Penn State 3 times. I'm sure it has happened, but I don't recall the B1G being down 2 years in a row.
 

howieramone said:
The middle is included when you use the expression top to bottom. This would have been the worst Gopher team I've ever seen make the dance, and we would never have been in the conversation, if we hadn't beat Penn State 3 times. I'm sure it has happened, but I don't recall the B1G being down 2 years in a row.
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The Big Ten was definitely down for a few years in the aughts.
 


College ball is way more cyclical than it used to be. Conferences can go from very strong to weak in a year. I thought B1G was strong this year from the beginning. I thought the top would be a little weaker than last year, but the best teams are hitting their stride at the right time.

Beej, I would disagree with point three. I saw a lot of basketball in the last three weeks both in person and on TV and the Gophers talent level right now is not where it needs to be to be competitive to the Sweet Sixteen level. To say only three recruits are needed (I am assuming you are talking about the remaining schoalrships available) is saying that a major influx of talent is necessary. Three players who can contribute more than depth and insurance against injury at this time of year is asking an awful lot. Agree 100% that getting Jarvis and the Grand Rapids kid are essential on many levels to lift the program. But right now, we really are a long way from being really good consistently. The more I see the NCAA's the more I appreciate what Pitino got out of these guys. If he can do the same with more talented players, the sky is the limit, but it may be a few years before we see the sky. I want to be wrong, but I do think we have a pretty long ways to go.
 

bga1 said:
I see a couple of commonly accepted perceptions that the tournament tells me are off:

1. That the Big Ten was off this year. 3 teams to the Final 8- I think that college basketball is not the same anymore and won't be. When you see the rest of college basketball- the Big Ten looks pretty good. Any of the three remaining teams could win the national championship.

2. You have to get a pile of 5 star players to win big. Today we see that Lavine and Anderson are going pro along with a pile of other potential stars. Emphasis on potential. Very good players that will never be seen at their best in college ball. I'd take a one and done here, but those guys are no guarantee of winning big.

3. The Gophers are light years from having enough talent to be a high end team. Don't laugh- we could go a long way next year if Pitino finds three guys that really fit in with what he is doing.
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1. B1G was widely thought the best conference last year, the best going into this year, and the best throughout non-conference play. It was nonsense for these national rubes to start calling the Big 12 or ACC the best conference after we started beating up on each other in conference play. The Tourney is simply confirming what we knew to begin with.

2. The B1G is set up right now to always be at or near the top, partly BECAUSE we're not getting loads of top-10 recruits... the ones that are one and done. Instead, you see B1G teams getting a lot of recruits in the 25-100 range that stay for multiple years, often 4. And the coaching talent in the B1G might be better than its ever been, similar to the ACC in its 1980's heyday. It's only going to get better when Maryland joins next year. They're going to be good.

3. The Gophers aren't light years away. All it would take is an announcement of ground breaking on a practice facility, and one or two recruiting cycles. Heck, just think of what THIS year's team would've looked like if the NCAA had granted Buckles' waiver - as they should have - and Andre either didn't get hurt or had a more minor injury that healed. You're never "light years away" in college basketball, because all it takes is two or three players to elevate a program.
 

bga1 said:
I see a couple of commonly accepted perceptions that the tournament tells me are off:

1. That the Big Ten was off this year. 3 teams to the Final 8- I think that college basketball is not the same anymore and won't be. When you see the rest of college basketball- the Big Ten looks pretty good. Any of the three remaining teams could win the national championship.

2. You have to get a pile of 5 star players to win big. Today we see that Lavine and Anderson are going pro along with a pile of other potential stars. Emphasis on potential. Very good players that will never be seen at their best in college ball. I'd take a one and done here, but those guys are no guarantee of winning big.

3. The Gophers are light years from having enough talent to be a high end team. Don't laugh- we could go a long way next year if Pitino finds three guys that really fit in with what he is doing.

It will be pretty tough for Pitino to bring in top 25 players in here. But I think he can have us making a run at a Final Four in the next four years with a bunch of top 150 guys that fit and stay three to four years. Illkanen and Jarvis would be a great start.......
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Agreed if you get Michael Jordan, LeBron James and Larry Bird
 

wisbadger303 said:
Agreed if you get Michael Jordan, LeBron James and Larry Bird
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I know you're just being an idiot troll, but I think the last 10 years or so of the tourney have shown that it's not always the most talent that wins. You get the right players for your system and a lot of things are possible.
 



I don't know many people saying the Big 10 was weak this year... I thought you guys were the best conference top to bottom. I understand why Minnesota didn't make the tournament but thought you guys would have done decent had you made it. You guys are doing great so far in the NIT and don't discount what Richard Pitino will do for ya in years to come. I really think he's going to end up being one of the better coaches in the college game... and once he gets some time to build the program I don't think you guys will have any problems competing for better players and the Big 10 championship.
 

A couple of months ago, it seemed that the Big Ten wasn't as strong as in years past. Mich St had some tough losses, but with injured players back now, that ship appears to have righted itself. Not that Mich St is the be all and end all of the conference, but the image of the conference at that time was that it wasn't as strong as in past years. Hope that you are right about coach Pitino - but he still needs to show signs of serious upgrades to the type of players that he can get to come here. Time will tell.
 

Holy Man said:
College ball is way more cyclical than it used to be. Conferences can go from very strong to weak in a year. I thought B1G was strong this year from the beginning. I thought the top would be a little weaker than last year, but the best teams are hitting their stride at the right time.

Beej, I would disagree with point three. I saw a lot of basketball in the last three weeks both in person and on TV and the Gophers talent level right now is not where it needs to be to be competitive to the Sweet Sixteen level. To say only three recruits are needed (I am assuming you are talking about the remaining schoalrships available) is saying that a major influx of talent is necessary. Three players who can contribute more than depth and insurance against injury at this time of year is asking an awful lot. Agree 100% that getting Jarvis and the Grand Rapids kid are essential on many levels to lift the program. But right now, we really are a long way from being really good consistently. The more I see the NCAA's the more I appreciate what Pitino got out of these guys. If he can do the same with more talented players, the sky is the limit, but it may be a few years before we see the sky. I want to be wrong, but I do think we have a pretty long ways to go.
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I am not sure I understand the continued argument that getting Jarvis and the grand rapids kid is essential for next year. Why? If Pitino can bring in players of equal or better talent than those two I would be quite happy. I understand the desire to bring mn talent when you can but there are a lot of talented kids out there across the country and, really, it should come down to wins and loses, not if his team is stacked with MN kids

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
 

MDGopherFan said:
I am not sure I understand the continued argument that getting Jarvis and the grand rapids kid is essential for next year. Why? If Pitino can bring in players of equal or better talent than those two I would be quite happy. I understand the desire to bring mn talent when you can but there are a lot of talented kids out there across the country and, really, it should come down to wins and loses, not if his team is stacked with MN kids

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
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Exactly right. We try so hard to make it about "closing the borders". I want players, not zip codes. Alex and Jarvis are two options -- there are many others.
 



Part of it lies with Wisconsin winning with a team that includes several Wisconsin born players. The other top Wisconsin players see this and want to go to Wisconsin. Right now in Minnesota we do not have that. Our top players seem to want to play elsewhere.
 

Chingy said:
I don't know many people saying the Big 10 was weak this year... I thought you guys were the best conference top to bottom. I understand why Minnesota didn't make the tournament but thought you guys would have done decent had you made it. You guys are doing great so far in the NIT and don't discount what Richard Pitino will do for ya in years to come. I really think he's going to end up being one of the better coaches in the college game... and once he gets some time to build the program I don't think you guys will have any problems competing for better players and the Big 10 championship.
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Thanks for the morale boost Chingy. I like the way you explained that Right Thurrrrrrrr.
 

MDGopherFan said:
I am not sure I understand the continued argument that getting Jarvis and the grand rapids kid is essential for next year. Why? If Pitino can bring in players of equal or better talent than those two I would be quite happy. I understand the desire to bring mn talent when you can but there are a lot of talented kids out there across the country and, really, it should come down to wins and loses, not if his team is stacked with MN kids

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
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I think long term sustainability includes getting the best Minnesota players. Of course we cannot rely only on Minnesota players, but getting the best to stay here is critical to building a program. I want opposing coaches to think they have no shot at getting our best players and put very few resources into Minnesota recruiting. Alex and Jarvis are good players that fit the mold of "keep them home" both because they are good and also because they local. If the program gets built and includes a strong local base the likelihood that it becomes a "cult of personality" with Richard and his staff declines, and it can continue when they are gone. Good players are good players, but it is a sign of strength when you can keep your good players at home.

Minnesota basketball has come a long way since Clem had to dig for a player worthy of a Big Ten scholarship because he thought it was important to have some local talent on the roster. There are very few years now when we don't have local talent that can contribute on a B1G roster. Needs to be a high priority to keep them here.
 

Holy Man said:
College ball is way more cyclical than it used to be. Conferences can go from very strong to weak in a year. I thought B1G was strong this year from the beginning. I thought the top would be a little weaker than last year, but the best teams are hitting their stride at the right time.

Beej, I would disagree with point three. I saw a lot of basketball in the last three weeks both in person and on TV and the Gophers talent level right now is not where it needs to be to be competitive to the Sweet Sixteen level. To say only three recruits are needed (I am assuming you are talking about the remaining schoalrships available) is saying that a major influx of talent is necessary. Three players who can contribute more than depth and insurance against injury at this time of year is asking an awful lot. Agree 100% that getting Jarvis and the Grand Rapids kid are essential on many levels to lift the program. But right now, we really are a long way from being really good consistently. The more I see the NCAA's the more I appreciate what Pitino got out of these guys. If he can do the same with more talented players, the sky is the limit, but it may be a few years before we see the sky. I want to be wrong, but I do think we have a pretty long ways to go.
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Needed to be highlighted.
 

bga1 said:
I see a couple of commonly accepted perceptions that the tournament tells me are off:

1. That the Big Ten was off this year. 3 teams to the Final 8- I think that college basketball is not the same anymore and won't be. When you see the rest of college basketball- the Big Ten looks pretty good. Any of the three remaining teams could win the national championship.

2. You have to get a pile of 5 star players to win big. Today we see that Lavine and Anderson are going pro along with a pile of other potential stars. Emphasis on potential. Very good players that will never be seen at their best in college ball. I'd take a one and done here, but those guys are no guarantee of winning big.

3. The Gophers are light years from having enough talent to be a high end team. Don't laugh- we could go a long way next year if Pitino finds three guys that really fit in with what he is doing.

It will be pretty tough for Pitino to bring in top 25 players in here. But I think he can have us making a run at a Final Four in the next four years with a bunch of top 150 guys that fit and stay three to four years. Illkanen and Jarvis would be a great start.......
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And you expect other coaches take a vacation next year? They all try to do this. It is March. Nothing is 100% sure.
 

howieramone said:
The BIG is never weak, but it wasn't as strong top to bottom as the previous season and I'd be very surprised if it's not stronger next season. Coach P. and staff need 3 good recruits to get off the bubble, bubble. I don't believe anyone who has followed the program for any length of time, expects Pitino to bring in top 25 recruits.
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As SS says, I respectfully disagree. For the reason that you know, I watched many B12 games this year (also, we get it for free in Rochester). They were so much better than B1G. It is March and refs let the teams play. If they wanted to call every foul, we would watch each game for 4 hrs. During the regular season, when a player breath on the other one, they called it a foul. I don't want to use Bo Ryan as an example since everybody in the world knows about him. If you watched UK vs. UL game, you would know what I am talking about. Players were all over each other. It is very hard to draw any conclusion in March.
 

The-Real-Truth said:
As SS says, I respectfully disagree. For the reason that you know, I watched many B12 games this year (also, we get it for free in Rochester). They were so much better than B1G. It is March and refs let the teams play. If they wanted to call every foul, we would watch each game for 4 hrs. During the regular season, when a player breath on the other one, they called it a foul. I don't want to use Bo Ryan as an example since everybody in the world knows about him. If you watched UK vs. UL game, you would know what I am talking about. Players were all over each other. It is very hard to draw any conclusion in March.
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Great points. November is clearly the most telling month. Certainly not February (that's why Tubby starts his vacation then every year) and obviously not March (completely useless - should be shut down - it's spring!).
 

The-Real-Truth said:
And you expect other coaches take a vacation next year? They all try to do this. It is March. Nothing is 100% sure.
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I forgot- now that Tubby is gone vacations are out of style in the Big Ten.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I know you're just being an idiot troll, but I think the last 10 years or so of the tourney have shown that it's not always the most talent that wins. You get the right players for your system and a lot of things are possible.
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This. And keep the kids in school so they play all 4 years. Experience is key when it comes to getting wins in March.
 

GopherJake said:
Great points. November is clearly the most telling month. Certainly not February (that's why Tubby starts his vacation then every year) and obviously not March (completely useless - should be shut down - it's spring!).
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Who is bringing Tubby to this topic? I just said that becasue B1G had 3 teams in the E 8, it doesn't mean that B1G was the strongest conference. If Bo didn't have his way with refs, there wouldn't be any teams from B1G in FF.

Everybody plays for March. bga1 sounded like Richard's problem would be solved if he brings in 3 good players. I said, that is every coach's goal. They are not going to sit on their butt or take a vacation. They will work as hard.

Now, SEC has two teams in FF. Were they a powerful conference? I watched Ucon 2 times this year. They were really not that good. Because of that win, could you conclude that they were better than MSU?

If we all knew what happened in March, we would have won that 1 Billion $.
 


The-Real-Truth said:
Who is bringing Tubby to this topic? I just said that becasue B1G had 3 teams in the E 8, it doesn't mean that B1G was the strongest conference. If Bo didn't have his way with refs, there wouldn't be any teams from B1G in FF.

Everybody plays for March. bga1 sounded like Richard's problem would be solved if he brings in 3 good players. I said, that is every coach's goal. They are not going to sit on their butt or take a vacation. They will work as hard.

Now, SEC has two teams in FF. Were they a powerful conference? I watched Ucon 2 times this year. They were really not that good. Because of that win, could you conclude that they were better than MSU?

If we all knew what happened in March, we would have won that 1 Billion $.
Click to expand...

The underpinnings of all your posts here are that Minnesota is a loser job and that we should have been honored to have a retiring Tubby Smith to watch over our ongoing calamity of a program. It's your opinion that Richard is going to have a tough time getting the job done. That's fine. It's my opinion that he has the passion to make it happen and I think he will do it. My point is that he has shown he can compete without the type of players he would like to have here and I think he will bring those players in.
 

The-Real-Truth said:
Who is bringing Tubby to this topic? I just said that becasue B1G had 3 teams in the E 8, it doesn't mean that B1G was the strongest conference. If Bo didn't have his way with refs, there wouldn't be any teams from B1G in FF.

Everybody plays for March. bga1 sounded like Richard's problem would be solved if he brings in 3 good players. I said, that is every coach's goal. They are not going to sit on their butt or take a vacation. They will work as hard.

Now, SEC has two teams in FF. Were they a powerful conference? I watched Ucon 2 times this year. They were really not that good. Because of that win, could you conclude that they were better than MSU?
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I agree that you can't just use the tourney results as the ONLY indicator of conference strength, and I'd also say that the "best" conference probably changes over time periods, sometimes even year to year.

That said, nobody can credibly argue that the Big Ten isn't king right now (and the last few years). The baton's probably getting passed back to the ACC next year though.
 

The conference wasn't as strong at the top relative to at least last year but is superior at the bottom. Penn State won 5 more conference games then last year and nebraska was the 4th best team in the conference this year.
 

WanderingGopher said:
That said, nobody can credibly argue that the Big Ten isn't king right now (and the last few years). The baton's probably getting passed back to the ACC next year though.
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That's the great thing about each season being different. With Louisville's addition next season the media is pretty much assuming the ACC will take over the top spot next season. That may be the case, but let's let it play out. That's the one thing more than anything I'm looking forward to next season, the ACC's assumed return to #1. Will it happen? Based on recent history I think the Big Ten, for one, will have something to say about that.
 

SelectionSunday said:
That's the great thing about each season being different. With Louisville's addition next season the media is pretty much assuming the ACC will take over the top spot next season. That may be the case, but let's let it play out. That's the one thing more than anything I'm looking forward to next season, the ACC's assumed return to #1. Will it happen? Based on recent history I think the Big Ten, for one, will have something to say about that.
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B1G has the potential to be extremely tough next year. Wisconsin loses Brust and that's it unless Special K leaves early capitalizing on his astronomical explosion over the past 2 weeks, but that's not the MO at Wisconsin they generally stay all 4 but he would be stupid not to at least go shack up with Barkley for a couple weeks.

Michigan State loses a Ton, but Izzo generally finds a way

OSU has taken a hit recently with some early departures, however, they have an extremely talented crew coming in

Illinois could be tough next year with some transfers becoming eligible

Iowa will likely take a small step back unless farmer fran can figure out how to coach defense

Michigan will get McGary back and possible Stouskas (sp?) depending on whether or not he leaves (I don't follow draft prospects for the NBA at all have no clue how he projects)
 

bga1 said:
The underpinnings of all your posts here are that Minnesota is a loser job and that we should have been honored to have a retiring Tubby Smith to watch over our ongoing calamity of a program. It's your opinion that Richard is going to have a tough time getting the job done. That's fine. It's my opinion that he has the passion to make it happen and I think he will do it. My point is that he has shown he can compete without the type of players he would like to have here and I think he will bring those players in.
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+1
 

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