The Big 10 made a huge mistake, change my mind...

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
I never said those states are leading the way. Who do you consider leading the way?

New York and New Jersey have the highest deaths per capita in the world. Herd immunity is the reason the disease has slowed there, not masks. Cases have gone up in Minnesota despite mandatory masks. California has been one of the most heavily locked down and masked states in the country. The spread of the disease has only accelerated there over the last 2 months.

Demographics, obesity, and age are the top reasons behind the hot spots and where the disease spreads. It has nothing to do with masks, social distancing, any governors, or Trump.

The US has the most susceptible population in the world to this disease, and yet it's still not any more deadly than the flu to the majority of the population. There's now nearly 6 months of data to back this up.
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what are you basing your statement about New York and New Jersey on? Herd immunity? No man, they were locked down hard there. I just got off the phone with my brother, who lives in Manhattan with his family. Hardly anyone is in public without masks in NYC. They haven't eaten a meal at a restaurant since February. Things were super tight there after the initial outbreak and people are still being very careful.

California? As soon as the beaches were open there, thousands abused the privilege. They were not wearing masks and they were not staying at home. Hiking trails were more packed than pre-COVID times. The spread of the disease accelerated because lots of people were f--king off as soon as they were given an inch.

This is my favorite statement of yours of all: "it's still not any more deadly than the flu to the majority of the population." Funny stuff coming from a middle-aged white dude. Have you seen the disparity on how much harder the black and Hispanic populations have been hit by COVID? Did it ever occur to you that the majority of players in P5 football are, in fact, black? Maybe people who have seen more of their family members die from COVID would feel differently about your statement and your perceived lack of risk.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Which hospitals and where?

Universal masking has decades of research that prove it's not effective against mitigating the disease. This is why it wasn't suggested at the beginning of the pandemic. No, it wasn't to save PPE, most people continue to use bandana's, fleeces, homemade cloth masks, etc that are ineffective, and were available from the beginning.
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Minnesota's declining COVID-19 case growth coincides with mask mandate timing. http://strib.mn/3g5Yzej

I’ve been spending a lot less time on Gopherhole than usual during this pandemic. Discussion boards lose much of their fun when politics and opinions unrelated to the board topic become entrenched. Part of me wants to play whack-a-mole and address everything I disagree with, while part of me just wants to ignore all the dumb-ass-ery. In the end, I just hope the virus can be successfully defeated as soon as possible. Otherwise I’m going to have to add lots of people like the weather guy to my ignore list, or continue to stay clear of Gopherhole, or both.
 

Section2 said:
The PCR tests have a history of unreliability, and as far as I can tell, have never been used as a baseline test for a virus of this magnitude. Is it false positive or false negative? Both have bad implications. Here's a New England Journal of Medicine take
There are more if you want to seek them out. There's also theories that the virus is not really novel, and kids have been exposed and are immune, explaining why it doesn't seem to infect school kids around the world.
That's why it's so important not to rely on a bunch of positive cases without any context. Are they sick?
If the problem with tests if false negatives, it really shrinks the death rate and risks. If it's false positives among those with immunity, outbreaks on campuses and in schools is a false panic.

My narrative is that individuals should make their own decisions about the risks they are willing to take and we should get on with our lives. The toll on mental health and the economy from lockdowns and widespread panic has already dwarfed the direct impact of the virus. So, I could grant that the virus is as bad as the worst predictions state and my solution would not change. But there is certainly plenty to be skeptical about, making the reaction to the virus a terrible terrible mistake.
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This narrative works fine when it comes to wearing a motorcycle helmet, or drinking, or smoking, or skydiving. It does not work in the context of a highly infectious disease in which your actions directly impact others.
 

Schnauzer said:
Minnesota's declining COVID-19 case growth coincides with mask mandate timing. http://strib.mn/3g5Yzej

I’ve been spending a lot less time on Gopherhole than usual during this pandemic. Discussion boards lose much of their fun when politics and opinions unrelated to the board topic become entrenched. Part of me wants to play whack-a-mole and address everything I disagree with, while part of me just wants to ignore all the dumb-ass-ery. In the end, I just hope the virus can be successfully defeated as soon as possible. Otherwise I’m going to have to add lots of people like the weather guy to my ignore list, or continue to stay clear of Gopherhole, or both.
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This is really well said. I was thinking a couple things today as I was mired in all this COVID message board nonsense:

1. WHO are all these people with these ridiculous anti-science takes? It legitimately reminds me of encountering a bunch of people who don't believe in evolution. It's troubling, especially that we share a fanbase with people whose brains are so small.

2. It really sucks that every thread now devolves into COVID back and forth. Sadly, we don't have anything else to talk about. I really miss talking actual Gopher football
 

You'll find these people in abundance on the internet. That's where they thrive.

The real world doesn't agree with them, so much. And that only embitters them even more. So they gravitate toward fringe ideologies.

The obvious reason why: on the anonymous internet, you can divorce, decouple, remove all empathy, emotion, and humanity from any discussion.
 


MplsGopher said:
You'll find these people in abundance on the internet. That's where they thrive.

The real world doesn't agree with them, so much. And that only embitters them even more. So they gravitate toward fringe ideologies.

The obvious reason why: on the anonymous internet, you can divorce, decouple, remove all empathy, emotion, and humanity from any discussion.
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Agreed. It would just be a lot easier if they all were Badgers fans
 



I can't believe those schools are making these decisions without consulting tweets involving Chinese pool parties!!!
 



WriterGoph said:
what are you basing your statement about New York and New Jersey on? Herd immunity? No man, they were locked down hard there. I just got off the phone with my brother, who lives in Manhattan with his family. Hardly anyone is in public without masks in NYC. They haven't eaten a meal at a restaurant since February. Things were super tight there after the initial outbreak and people are still being very careful.

California? As soon as the beaches were open there, thousands abused the privilege. They were not wearing masks and they were not staying at home. Hiking trails were more packed than pre-COVID times. The spread of the disease accelerated because lots of people were f--king off as soon as they were given an inch.

This is my favorite statement of yours of all: "it's still not any more deadly than the flu to the majority of the population." Funny stuff coming from a middle-aged white dude. Have you seen the disparity on how much harder the black and Hispanic populations have been hit by COVID? Did it ever occur to you that the majority of players in P5 football are, in fact, black? Maybe people who have seen more of their family members die from COVID would feel differently about your statement and your perceived lack of risk.
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NYC locked down hard and still has the highest death rate in the world. That's good? Things are more open now than they were in March/April. They also have high rates of people testing positive for antibodies. Herd immunity is absolutely a reason their cases and deaths have dropped to the low levels they are at today.

Please link the study that shows California's cases are tied to the outdoors. It is widely accepted that the disease does not spread outdoors.

Did you not see where I mentioned demographics are the number 1 factor of the hardest hit areas? The players have the choice to play or to not play without losing their scholarship. How many of these same players have seen more of their family members die due to drug overdoses, violent crimes, or other diseases, than from COVID?
 

Fall is, or should be, done. Online only.

When we're almost out of the woods, vaccines approved and in production for a nice Xmas present .... just suck it up this fall. Yeah it's bad but .... it is what it is ......
 

It is widely accepted that the disease does not spread outdoors.

:rolleyes: No. The risk of transmitting the disease from droplets or aerosols floating out of an infected person's mouth/nose and into the mouth/nose of an uninfected person, is merely reduced. Not to zero.

I guarantee if someone infected spits in your mouth outdoors, you're still likely to get infected.
 

Schnauzer said:
Minnesota's declining COVID-19 case growth coincides with mask mandate timing. http://strib.mn/3g5Yzej

I’ve been spending a lot less time on Gopherhole than usual during this pandemic. Discussion boards lose much of their fun when politics and opinions unrelated to the board topic become entrenched. Part of me wants to play whack-a-mole and address everything I disagree with, while part of me just wants to ignore all the dumb-ass-ery. In the end, I just hope the virus can be successfully defeated as soon as possible. Otherwise I’m going to have to add lots of people like the weather guy to my ignore list, or continue to stay clear of Gopherhole, or both.
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The mask mandate started on July 25th. Minnesota had the highest number of reported cases ever 2 weeks after the mandate began.

1597788278796.png

Over the last week cases have dropped slightly. Is that because of masks? Or because we're running on average 5-7k fewer tests per day than we were when the mask mandate began?

1597788427611.png

Our positive test rate continues to increase, shouldn't masks have the opposite effect?
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
NYC locked down hard and still has the highest death rate in the world. That's good? Things are more open now than they were in March/April. They also have high rates of people testing positive for antibodies. Herd immunity is absolutely a reason their cases and deaths have dropped to the low levels they are at today.

Please link the study that shows California's cases are tied to the outdoors. It is widely accepted that the disease does not spread outdoors.

Did you not see where I mentioned demographics are the number 1 factor of the hardest hit areas? The players have the choice to play or to not play without losing their scholarship. How many of these same players have seen more of their family members die due to drug overdoses, violent crimes, or other diseases, than from COVID?
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Holy sh*t! Donald, is that you?

What a leap from COVID to "drug overdoses and violent crime" just cause we were talking about Black and hispanic people.

Don't forget your tiki torch from Home Depot for your next lil' "walk" with your buddies.
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
Agree completely.

The issue I have with playing in Fall is when a team has an outbreak where too many players must be sidelined (which will likely happen), now what? Do they forfeit? When do you make up the game? It doesn't seem like they've taken that into account. For an example, look at baseball and the St. Louis Cardinals. They've played 10 games to the Twins 23. When the hell are they going to make those 13 games up?
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They will not make them up, they will go by winning %
 

Block M said:
This narrative works fine when it comes to wearing a motorcycle helmet, or drinking, or smoking, or skydiving. It does not work in the context of a highly infectious disease in which your actions directly impact others.
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which narrative? if you want to argue that we should quarantine the sick, I would take no issue. There are more results from quarantines and shutdowns than reduction of spread. It's not even clear that those actions are effective at their intended result, but when you add in the unintended costs, no brainer.

Consider: The CDC recently released statistics on whether you have had suicidal thoughts in the last 12 months among 18 - 25 year olds. The results have hovered between 7 and 11 percent the last decade. It is currently at 25.5 %, and the respondents considered suicide in the last 30. So whose rights trump whose? The elderly and infirmed have their rights above those of our young people? Sorry, that does not work for me. You are responsible for your own actions, period. If you want to minimize your risk of contracting the virus, stay home.
 

WriterGoph said:
Holy sh*t! Donald, is that you?

What a leap from COVID to "drug overdoses and violent crime" just cause we were talking about Black and hispanic people.

Don't forget your tiki torch from Home Depot for your next lil' "walk" with your buddies.
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I'm sorry you don't believe in data and statistics and try to hide from reality.
 

People have to sign up for tests. The government can't force people to get tested.

No idea why fewer people who don't have the virus are signing up to be tested. I guess, if you don't feel sick, you don't feel like you need a test.

Also, maybe people are afraid of the older style tests where long swabs go down your nose. They don't do that anymore, you can just swab inside the nose. Nothing to it. Takes 5mins.


So that takes care of why fewer tests are being done and why the positivity is going up: fewer uninfected people are choosing to sign up for tests, while the same (low) number of infected people are signing up for tests.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I'm sorry you don't believe in data and statistics and try to hide from reality.
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Hide from reality? Way way more white motherf--kers have been dying from drug overdoses (specifically opiates) than black people. So what data? Or are you still stuck with Nancy Reagan and the 80s crack epidemic?
 

Oh that’s right, close down the whole state of Montana. Billings, pop. 125,000 1 case in May. Countries in Iowa, 4 /5 cases in May and June. Ya, that’s right close them down. Tell me one hospital that was overwhelmed - not media”facts” but you know absolutely was overwhelmed? In the Midwest. Didn’t think so. So get off this “sky is falling” and get with the program. The B1G made a terrible mistake because of no leadership in the front office. Hell, he didn’t even know if the Presidents or A.D. voted. What a joke.
 

Pete smith said:
Oh that’s right, close down the whole state of Montana. Billings, pop. 125,000 1 case in May. Countries in Iowa, 4 /5 cases in May and June. Ya, that’s right close them down. Tell me one hospital that was overwhelmed - not media”facts” but you know absolutely was overwhelmed? In the Midwest. Didn’t think so. So get off this “sky is falling” and get with the program. The B1G made a terrible mistake because of no leadership in the front office. Hell, he didn’t even know if the Presidents or A.D. voted. What a joke.
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WTF does Montana have to do with the Big 10? Why not give us stats from American Samoa instead?

Ever heard of Minneapolis, Chicago, New Jersey, the DC Metro area?
 

Section2 said:
which narrative? if you want to argue that we should quarantine the sick, I would take no issue. There are more results from quarantines and shutdowns than reduction of spread. It's not even clear that those actions are effective at their intended result, but when you add in the unintended costs, no brainer.

Consider: The CDC recently released statistics on whether you have had suicidal thoughts in the last 12 months among 18 - 25 year olds. The results have hovered between 7 and 11 percent the last decade. It is currently at 25.5 %, and the respondents considered suicide in the last 30. So whose rights trump whose? The elderly and infirmed have their rights above those of our young people? Sorry, that does not work for me. You are responsible for your own actions, period. If you want to minimize your risk of contracting the virus, stay home.
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The “collateral” damage, including this, increased homicides and other violent crimes is real. I’m all for masking up, and I was 100% onboard with locking everything down when the Death rate was believed to be 4-7%... but for the last 13-14 weeks we’ve known it was 0.2-0.5% and things had spread too far to have a realistic chance at containing it anyways. Is it worth trading 5 more years for your 85 year old dad/grandpa for losing your nephew to suicide at 20? There is no answer that saves everyone, but we need to be real with the impact of the decisions we are making.
 

PoockItInfor6 said:
The “collateral” damage, including this, increased homicides and other violent crimes is real. I’m all for masking up, and I was 100% onboard with locking everything down when the Death rate was believed to be 4-7%... but for the last 13-14 weeks we’ve known it was 0.2-0.5% and things had spread too far to have a realistic chance at containing it anyways. Is it worth trading 5 more years for your 85 year old dad/grandpa for losing your nephew to suicide at 20? There is no answer that saves everyone, but we need to be real with the impact of the decisions we are making.
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A guy I knew through some other guys committed a triple homicide on family members that he had been locked down with... can’t say for sure if that happens without COVID, but stuff like that has been happening much more often over the past 6 months.
 

Outkick pointing out that Ohio high schools, Cincinnati Bearcats, Browns, Bengals are all playing fall football.

Buckeyes not.
 

Back to the topic.... From a perception stand point I think it will almost solely on how it works out for any conferences that play. If those playing have issues, shutdowns, someone gets really sick then the B10 won't look so bad. If everything goes off relatively without a hitch then the B10 will look like it pulled the plug too early. As to whether the decision is actually right or wrong.... I'll let you debaters debate.

Regardless of what you think of the virus, it's seriousness, tests, blah blah blah.....

The biggest factor is going to be how many schools go to online learning/not letting kids on campus. The longer the general population and students are kept away from the football team, the better the chance for a season to keep going without too many obstructions.
 
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GopherWeatherGuy said:
You mean like change everyone's lives by shutting everything non-essential down, and destroying the economy for nearly two months? That happened, it didn't stop the virus.

This was supposed to be stay at home for just two weeks in order to slow the spread to those 65+ so we don't overwhelm the hospitals. That happened, and hospitals were never overwhelmed across 99% of the country. Places that setup temporary facilities, never used them.

Then the narrative changed to we need to keep destroying peoples businesses, lives, and the economy until there is a vaccine. This after the data continues to show this disease still isn't a threat to more than 99% of young people, and 65+ are the most at risk. That was the same story on day one.

So you're right, we should be having different conversations now. We go back to normal as soon as the media starts discussing the real data and who's really at risk, and not continuing to use fear tactics by suggesting we need to lock down again or wait for a vaccine.
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How often do you change the foil in your hat?
 


PoockItInfor6 said:
The “collateral” damage, including this, increased homicides and other violent crimes is real. I’m all for masking up, and I was 100% onboard with locking everything down when the Death rate was believed to be 4-7%... but for the last 13-14 weeks we’ve known it was 0.2-0.5% and things had spread too far to have a realistic chance at containing it anyways. Is it worth trading 5 more years for your 85 year old dad/grandpa for losing your nephew to suicide at 20? There is no answer that saves everyone, but we need to be real with the impact of the decisions we are making.
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yes, thank you I agree, although I think your death rate is still too high.
My grandma just died apparently from COVID, and she has been quarantined in her nursing home room for 6 months. No family in, no visits with friends, just the occasional facetime. Still got it.

Students can all stay in their dorms at college, but classes are online. Makes no sense.
You can only walk in a restaurant if you wear a mask, then when seated no mask, and there are fans blowing, makes no sense. College players can practice, but not play games.
There is just no sense to any of it, and of course not. These are political and legal solutions, not practical common sense solutions. Individuals making their own decisions is the best solution, for covid, and for everything.
 


Section2 said:
The PCR tests have a history of unreliability, and as far as I can tell, have never been used as a baseline test for a virus of this magnitude. Is it false positive or false negative? Both have bad implications. Here's a New England Journal of Medicine take
There are more if you want to seek them out. There's also theories that the virus is not really novel, and kids have been exposed and are immune, explaining why it doesn't seem to infect school kids around the world.
That's why it's so important not to rely on a bunch of positive cases without any context. Are they sick?
If the problem with tests if false negatives, it really shrinks the death rate and risks. If it's false positives among those with immunity, outbreaks on campuses and in schools is a false panic.

My narrative is that individuals should make their own decisions about the risks they are willing to take and we should get on with our lives. The toll on mental health and the economy from lockdowns and widespread panic has already dwarfed the direct impact of the virus. So, I could grant that the virus is as bad as the worst predictions state and my solution would not change. But there is certainly plenty to be skeptical about, making the reaction to the virus a terrible terrible mistake.
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And there are theories that your grand parents came from Mars..

The major flaw in your argument is that those peoples "own decisions" on risk impacts the health, safety and finances of everyone else. So in effect they are not allowing others to make their own decisions on risk. So if you decide to ignore the recommendations and then get sick and need to spend a month on in the ICU, who pays for that? If you decided to take the risk then you should take the full responsibility and be accountable for your actions. And what if your aunt dies from complications of some other sickness because she couldn't get into the hospital because it was full of you and your buddies in the ICU. Should you be held accountable for manslaughter just as a drunk driver is who take a person's life?

If there was a way for you to take you own risks without impacting anyone else then go ahead, but be responsible enough to dig your own grave first.

It is not a matter of personal freedoms, it is a matter of personal responsibility and accountability.
 

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