Ten Gophers football players indefinately suspended

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Go Gophers Rah said:
I agree as long as the act was consensual by people that are not in a situation where they cannot make a good decision (i.e. learning disabled people being taken advantage of, intoxicate people, etc.).
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This is where I admit I have an issue. If they are both impaired, how can one be held to a higher standard than the other? Are they both not equally "to blame"? If one of the players came back and said they were feeling regret would there be an investigation? I find that unlikely given the current climate.
 

CoMn said:
Estimates of the cost of a d1 power 5 conference football player for 4 years are $500K....taxpayer money...far more than just tuition, room and board...coaching, trainers, docs, flights etc.

As far as the posters who say that women are allowed to rape men (have sex with them without consent), that is not the case. The EOCC would also investigate that it just doesn't occur often. The reason it seems like women go to the EOCC so often is that statistics say that 93.7% of rapists are men.

What was it like for women before Title 9? There weren't organized sports for girls...not in elementary school, not in middle school, and very little in high school and college. When left to the men who controlled all the athletic departments back then, they did basically nothing for women. So if you complain about Title 9, you should complain about the guys who abused their power so much and who discriminated against women to such a degree that Title 9 became law. Those old boys didn't do a darn thing and Title 9 was the result...and now our girls can play sports at all ages.

As far as the posters who think donors don't matter (ie. Bob)...really? Want that new athletic facility? Think this kind of crap doesn't offend people in polite society who donate 7 figure donations? Does the school really want to alienate them so that the secondary plays well in a bowl game? You are so naive it's embarrassing.

Again, guys can have orgies with consenting women. Many donors won't however support a program where drinking, orgies, harassment are part of the culture. There are not the first guys accused of rape under Kill/Claeys. I am in Colorado and CU lost a chancellor, university president, AD and head coach over their sex scandal. I don't think a single player went to jail but not taking strong action made folks lose their jobs up the entire line. It divided the community but more folks were against the athletic department except for the hardcore boosters. It has taken 15 years for CU to recover...and considering they were ranked in the top 10 and still didn't sell out their modest sized stadium except once (I believe) is evidence that condoning this kind of crap...legal or not...is very damaging for a school and a program.

So until you are the one writing big checks, I'd be wary about supporting this kind of behavior even if it was consensual (which in this case it is allegedly not). We may have 4 rapes on our hand...where 4 players raped a drunk woman and a bunch of guys who harassed her and lied. If a recruit was present as one poster said, that is even more concerning. It is not creepy to think it is inappropriate to line up to screw a drunk woman. In my world is it "creepy" to think that is okay behavior and that we should give scholarships to athletes who do this kind of thing. People are allowed to have standards and morals and judge others based on their standards and morals. The tone of this board alone shows why it is necessary to have the EOCC in the first place.
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Very well written opinion. But you make an amazing amount of assumptions. Are you suggesting that if one is critical or questioning of the EOAA that they are against the strides that women have made in sport over the last several decades?

There were no charges against anyone involved in the incident, yet you suggest several rapes took place?

Because CU got crushed from a past sex scandal, that calls for this situation to be treated harshly? Are there parallels? Why are the situations comparable?

Whether this is a criminal situation that lacked the evidence to charge these kids, or it's a concensual situation that spun out of control, I hope the outcome is in alignment with the truth. What is incredibly frustrating is that the fate of all involved are in the hands of a group that is rather unknown, with opaque processes and seemingly uncheckable power. The fact that the highest levels of authority, the AD and President, have failed to project any leadership or perspective on the situation is irresponsible.
 

hungan1 said:
Where there non-football players present at the party like other girls and guys?

Are they going to get expulsions & suspensions too? How come it was the players that got the wrath of the EOAA only?

If some of the suspended athletes were sleeping when this whole thing happened like Logan Hutton was saying, how come they got suspensions and not the other non-athletes that were present?
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This is where any EOAA bias would show up. If there were other students, male & female, athlete & not, and they are not brought up for discipline, then we have an EOAA that is selectively targeting a sports team for discipline.

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CoMn said:
Estimates of the cost of a d1 power 5 conference football player for 4 years are $500K....taxpayer money...far more than just tuition, room and board...coaching, trainers, docs, flights etc.

As far as the posters who say that women are allowed to rape men (have sex with them without consent), that is not the case. The EOCC would also investigate that it just doesn't occur often. The reason it seems like women go to the EOCC so often is that statistics say that 93.7% of rapists are men.

What was it like for women before Title 9? There weren't organized sports for girls...not in elementary school, not in middle school, and very little in high school and college. When left to the men who controlled all the athletic departments back then, they did basically nothing for women. So if you complain about Title 9, you should complain about the guys who abused their power so much and who discriminated against women to such a degree that Title 9 became law. Those old boys didn't do a darn thing and Title 9 was the result...and now our girls can play sports at all ages.

As far as the posters who think donors don't matter (ie. Bob)...really? Want that new athletic facility? Think this kind of crap doesn't offend people in polite society who donate 7 figure donations? Does the school really want to alienate them so that the secondary plays well in a bowl game? You are so naive it's embarrassing.

Again, guys can have orgies with consenting women. Many donors won't however support a program where drinking, orgies, harassment are part of the culture. There are not the first guys accused of rape under Kill/Claeys. I am in Colorado and CU lost a chancellor, university president, AD and head coach over their sex scandal. I don't think a single player went to jail but not taking strong action made folks lose their jobs up the entire line. It divided the community but more folks were against the athletic department except for the hardcore boosters. It has taken 15 years for CU to recover...and considering they were ranked in the top 10 and still didn't sell out their modest sized stadium except once (I believe) is evidence that condoning this kind of crap...legal or not...is very damaging for a school and a program.

So until you are the one writing big checks, I'd be wary about supporting this kind of behavior even if it was consensual (which in this case it is allegedly not). We may have 4 rapes on our hand...where 4 players raped a drunk woman and a bunch of guys who harassed her and lied. If a recruit was present as one poster said, that is even more concerning. It is not creepy to think it is inappropriate to line up to screw a drunk woman. In my world is it "creepy" to think that is okay behavior and that we should give scholarships to athletes who do this kind of thing. People are allowed to have standards and morals and judge others based on their standards and morals. The tone of this board alone shows why it is necessary to have the EOCC in the first place.
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Yes very well stated.
 



Someone should do a study on this thread. It has had 3 personalities....

First, people were all over TC and how he couldn't control players.

Second, those folks realized it wasn't a new event, left TC alone, and were on the EOAA and their ridiculous amount of power they have without proper oversight.

Now, we have some stupid moral discussion on what types of sex other people should or should not be allowed to have when representing the U and how maybe these kids deserve to be punished for having group sex, even if consensual, because it is against their morals.

We need to put an end to this last part. All the Holier than Thou folks that give a rat's ass how others have sex and deem it punishable because they don't agree need to realize they are the problem with today's society.


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Spoofin said:
Someone should do a study on this thread. It has had 3 personalities....

First, people were all over TC and how he couldn't control players.

Second, those folks realized it wasn't a new event, left TC alone, and were on the EOAA and their ridiculous amount of power they have without proper oversight.

Now, we have some stupid moral discussion on what types of sex other people should or should not be allowed to have when representing the U and how maybe these kids deserve to be punished for having group sex, even if consensual, because it is against their morals.

We need to put an end to this last part. All the Holier than Thou folks that give a rat's ass how others have sex and deem it punishable because they don't agree need to realize they are the problem with today's society.


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Gonna need to discuss your activities first before I buy into this.....
 

A couple thoughts just from going thru this thread.

1) Thought this was obvious, but apparently not. The football player scholarships are paid for by donors and department revenue. They are not paid with taxpayer money.

2) This was not on campus and not on campus property. Honest question I have, where does the U's authority end? If an athlete gets public intoxication on a trip to Toronto with his/her family, does the U have authority to punish? I honestly dont know.

3) The fact the girl claims to have had 5 or 6 shots means nothing. For a freshman with no drinking experience, that could have a big impact. For a 3rd year college student with years of drinking experience, it could have very little impact. I knew girls in college who could chug over half a bottle of Vodka straight, and you couldnt even tell if they were a tad bit tipsy. Yet I know guys that would be passed out from half that amount. Different bodies handle it very differently. Not to mention she walked there from an unknown location, which would have taken time, which makes the timeline sketchy as to all of a sudden not being able to give consent due to the alcohol.

4) How is another student supposed to know how much a person has been drinking to know whether their consent is real or not? Who is to say the football players were not able to give consent?

This whole thing just smells like a witch hunt. And unfortunately, it will probably take a lawsuit from Hutton for the truth to come out.
 

Gopher Bulldog
At CU no player went to jail. Using the logic of the posters on this board then no rape occurred. Just because charges aren't forthcoming doesn't mean a rape didn't occur...it means there wasn't enough evidence to convict. That is totally different from saying that the players were innocent. I said 4 rapes MAY have occurred. The parallels with CU are that women have come forward at both institutions in different years accusing football players of rape. At CU administration didn't take strong action and subsequently everyone from the head coach to the chancellor was fired or left the university as a direct result. Here strong action was taken and the boosters on this board are going crazy. If indeed guys were sleeping in the other room my guess is that they are being accused of lying or harassment after the fact. We don't know. But as one poster so wisely pointed out...it was on the front page. As another poster pointed out, he and his friends were all able to get through college having as much sex as they could without ever being accused of rape. Women don't often report rape because conviction is difficult and because of the trauma that she has to go through. Can you imagine the abuse she would be taking on this board if her name were known? What does she have to gain by these accusations if not justice? In her mind she was raped. It may be that the players didn't think they raped her. All this is more evidence that drinking in excess and having orgies is not wise. No matter what anyone on this board says, these guys have done a lot of damage to the university because their sexual exploits made the headlines and the details are not something consensual or not, that many big donors embrace. Tough for Claeys but like one poster said, at their workplace, they are given training a couple times a year on this stuff. I would imagine 18-23 year old guys need training closer to weekly.
 




A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
Gonna need to discuss your activities first before I buy into this.....
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Well, I've never had group sex. Never even been offered. I'd have to check out who was asking if I was.

However, I care more about what stamps my wife put on the Christmas cards than I do if a DB from the Gophers chooses to have (consensual) group sex.


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From what I have read here it sounds like she was consenting in the vid but at some point changed her mind. Who knows if or how she expressed that. Only the players and the girl know that. If she did let them know she no longer consented they need to stop or it is rape. If she made no indication she was not consenting then this whole thing is a witch hunt. Those facts were lacking for the police apparently.
 

Pioneer Press: Gophers football players request formal hearing on suspensions

http://www.twincities.com/2016/12/14/gophers-football-players-request-formal-hearing-on-suspensions/

“Hutton said that Claeys disagreed with the decision to suspend the players. “He in no way authorized the suspension of these players,” Hutton said.

Coyle later added, “I met with Coach Claeys, and in consultation, we made that decision.””

^ Somebody has it wrong.

"In San Diego, Claeys insisted the absence of the suspended players will not be a distraction when Minnesota plays Washington State at Qualcomm Stadium on Dec. 27."

^ TC please tell me that you didn't really say this.
 



I'm just hoping, after all of this, nobody catches the early flight home from San Diego....

 


MNGoldenGophers1 said:
Pioneer Press: Gophers football players request formal hearing on suspensions

http://www.twincities.com/2016/12/14/gophers-football-players-request-formal-hearing-on-suspensions/

“Hutton said that Claeys disagreed with the decision to suspend the players. “He in no way authorized the suspension of these players,” Hutton said.

Coyle later added, “I met with Coach Claeys, and in consultation, we made that decision.””

^ Somebody has it wrong.

"In San Diego, Claeys insisted the absence of the suspended players will not be a distraction when Minnesota plays Washington State at Qualcomm Stadium on Dec. 27."

^ TC please tell me that you didn't really say this.
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Or....Coyle consulted with Claeys, they disagreed and Coyle over ruled him in favor of the EEOA desires. Coyle didn't clearly say they agreed he did say that they consulted on the decision. He then, sneakily, threw the coach under the bus if so. If it came down that way the PP says, Coyle should have offered the coach's dissenting view.
 

MNGoldenGophers1 said:
"In San Diego, Claeys insisted the absence of the suspended players will not be a distraction when Minnesota plays Washington State at Qualcomm Stadium on Dec. 27."

^ TC please tell me that you didn't really say this.
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What's he supposed to say? "Yeah this really sucks. We're going to have a hard time winning."

Remember, the players probably hear and read these comments too. As a coach, he has to do his best to make sure it isn't a big distraction and try to keep their confidence.
 

CoMn said:
Gopher Bulldog
At CU no player went to jail. Using the logic of the posters on this board then no rape occurred. Just because charges aren't forthcoming doesn't mean a rape didn't occur...it means there wasn't enough evidence to convict. That is totally different from saying that the players were innocent. I said 4 rapes MAY have occurred. The parallels with CU are that women have come forward at both institutions in different years accusing football players of rape. At CU administration didn't take strong action and subsequently everyone from the head coach to the chancellor was fired or left the university as a direct result. Here strong action was taken and the boosters on this board are going crazy. If indeed guys were sleeping in the other room my guess is that they are being accused of lying or harassment after the fact. We don't know. But as one poster so wisely pointed out...it was on the front page. As another poster pointed out, he and his friends were all able to get through college having as much sex as they could without ever being accused of rape. Women don't often report rape because conviction is difficult and because of the trauma that she has to go through. Can you imagine the abuse she would be taking on this board if her name were known? What does she have to gain by these accusations if not justice? In her mind she was raped. It may be that the players didn't think they raped her. All this is more evidence that drinking in excess and having orgies is not wise. No matter what anyone on this board says, these guys have done a lot of damage to the university because their sexual exploits made the headlines and the details are not something consensual or not, that many big donors embrace. Tough for Claeys but like one poster said, at their workplace, they are given training a couple times a year on this stuff. I would imagine 18-23 year old guys need training closer to weekly.
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CoMN
Thanks for the context on the CU situation. Helpful. I try to ignore a lot of the opinions on this board as they are enough to make your head explode. That said, it's important to keep in mind that there are possibly 11 victims in this situation. And they all deserve due process. Currently, the fate of 10 of these potential victims is in the hands of a group of people that many don't know. What are their backgrounds? Their processes? How do they render their decisions and what checks and balances are involved in their abilities to execute punishment?

The situation of these football players is independent. As much as people would like to connect it to past transgressions of other schools and the consequential outcomes, that would be artificial. If our leadership and the EOAA are primarily concerned with this, the bias in how the situation is resolved would be monumental.
 

i am going to try and say this as simply as possible.

Each of the players involved in this incident has two identities.

They have their individual identity - and as an individual, they have the same rights as any person to make their own decisions, and live with the consequences.

But, they also have a group identity - as a member of the group known as the U of MN Gopher Football team.

As an individual, each player can make their own choices and decisions involving drinking and sexual activity. Those choices and decisions reflect on themselves as an individual.

But, as a member of the Gopher football team, their choices and decisions also reflect on the group as a whole. And that is the sticking point here.

Individuals make decisions and choices based on their individual wants and needs. If they want to have sex, they can have sex, and any consequences are felt by the individual only. (and their partner)

But, for the players in this incident, I believe they acted selfishly. They put their individual wants and needs ahead of the group. As a member of a D1 team, in the back of their minds, every decision they make - every choice they make - needs to be weighed against the potential impact on the group. They need to be asking themselves how this choice will impact and reflect on the group as a whole.

They are not random students - they are scholarship athletes at the U of MN. As such, they are judged differently in the court of public opinion.

As I said, they may very well have been within their individual rights to make their own choices about alcohol use and sexual activity - but they forgot about their responsibilities to the group - their teammates.

Those are the people I feel bad for - the other players, who have to share in the impact of those choices.

You may well believe the "Gopher 10" are being treated unfairly by the U administration. but, they are not blameless in this matter.
 

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bga1 said:
Oh I see. You are one of those. Sigh. Yes, in fact my kind of person thought they should be free and voting while your kind of person was enslaving them. You are a morality of the present day guy- a stick your finger in the air and see which way the wind is blowing person.
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Got all that from my li'l ole post...brilliant you are.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
i am going to try and say this as simply as possible.

Each of the players involved in this incident has two identities.

They have their individual identity - and as an individual, they have the same rights as any person to make their own decisions, and live with the consequences.

But, they also have a group identity - as a member of the group known as the U of MN Gopher Football team.

As an individual, each player can make their own choices and decisions involving drinking and sexual activity. Those choices and decisions reflect on themselves as an individual.

But, as a member of the Gopher football team, their choices and decisions also reflect on the group as a whole. And that is the sticking point here.

Individuals make decisions and choices based on their individual wants and needs. If they want to have sex, they can have sex, and any consequences are felt by the individual only. (and their partner)

But, for the players in this incident, I believe they acted selfishly. They put their individual wants and needs ahead of the group. As a member of a D1 team, in the back of their minds, every decision they make - every choice they make - needs to be weighed against the potential impact on the group. They need to be asking themselves how this choice will impact and reflect on the group as a whole.

They are not random students - they are scholarship athletes at the U of MN. As such, they are judged differently in the court of public opinion.

As I said, they may very well have been within their individual rights to make their own choices about alcohol use and sexual activity - but they forgot about their responsibilities to the group - their teammates.

Those are the people I feel bad for - the other players, who have to share in the impact of those choices.

You may well believe the "Gopher 10" are being treated unfairly by the U administration. but, they are not blameless in this matter.
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Gopher 10...you mean like the Central Park 5?
 

GophersInIowa said:
What's he supposed to say? "Yeah this really sucks. We're going to have a hard time winning."

Remember, the players probably hear and read these comments too. As a coach, he has to do his best to make sure it isn't a big distraction and try to keep their confidence.
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Mom always said honesty is the best policy. What Claeys said it total B.S. and unless someone is pathetically stupid they know it is B.S. The players aren't dumb and would probably appreciate a coach that offered up some candor about the situation.

I’m not sure what the right message would be but off the top of my head, I might say something to the effect: I can’t lie, this situation does present a distraction but we intend to minimize it. The players are determined and recognize that out of adversity comes opportunity and we plan to take full advantage of it.
 

CoMn said:
What was it like for women before Title 9? There weren't organized sports for girls...not in elementary school, not in middle school, and very little in high school and college. When left to the men who controlled all the athletic departments back then, they did basically nothing for women. So if you complain about Title 9, you should complain about the guys who abused their power so much and who discriminated against women to such a degree that Title 9 became law. Those old boys didn't do a darn thing and Title 9 was the result...and now our girls can play sports at all ages.
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There wasn't broad interest in athletics from women in the past. About the same time women started getting interested in sports, there was no time to adjust, just create a bunch of overzealous laws and enforce the new policy. Men's sports weren't a top down creation by universities, they evolved. And frankly, Universities should have been free to support women's sports, or not support them. men and women are not perfectly equal, despite what people like you might think, and often have separate interests. Should women be free to play sports? yes. of course.

CoMn said:
So until you are the one writing big checks, I'd be wary about supporting this kind of behavior even if it was consensual (which in this case it is allegedly not). We may have 4 rapes on our hand...where 4 players raped a drunk woman and a bunch of guys who harassed her and lied. If a recruit was present as one poster said, that is even more concerning. It is not creepy to think it is inappropriate to line up to screw a drunk woman. In my world is it "creepy" to think that is okay behavior and that we should give scholarships to athletes who do this kind of thing. People are allowed to have standards and morals and judge others based on their standards and morals. The tone of this board alone shows why it is necessary to have the EOCC in the first place.
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"allegedly not". Is it inappropriate to line up to screw a woman? Yes, I think it is. A crime? Justification for suspension or expulsion? I think not. The power to listen to two people's stories and side with one unequivocally without evidence shows why the EOCC is a giant mistake. The Duke Lacrosse scandal, the Rolling Stone scandal and others have shown that caution is warranted. It is simply a bad idea to lower the bar for college "convictions".
 

MNGoldenGophers1 said:
Mom always said honesty is the best policy. What Claeys said it total B.S. and unless someone is pathetically stupid they know it is B.S. The players aren't dumb and would probably appreciate a coach that offered up some candor about the situation.

I’m not sure what the right message would be but off the top of my head, I might say something to the effect: I can’t lie, this situation does present a distraction but we intend to minimize it. The players are determined and recognize that out of adversity comes opportunity and we plan to take full advantage of it.
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I think you're over-analyzing coach speak. The best NFL coach of our time would have stood up there and said 'on to Washington State' over and over to every question.
 

howeda7 said:
I think you're over-analyzing coach speak. The best NFL coach of our time would have stood up there and said 'on to Washington State' over and over to every question.
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It's GH, what else do you expect me to do ;-)
 

MNGoldenGophers1 said:
I’m not sure what the right message would be but off the top of my head, I might say something to the effect: I can’t lie, this situation does present a distraction but we intend to minimize it. The players are determined and recognize that out of adversity comes opportunity and we plan to take full advantage of it.
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That is pretty similar to what he actually said. He said this isn't a distraction, next man up. I think you're arguing semantics.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
i am going to try and say this as simply as possible.

Each of the players involved in this incident has two identities.

They have their individual identity - and as an individual, they have the same rights as any person to make their own decisions, and live with the consequences.

But, they also have a group identity - as a member of the group known as the U of MN Gopher Football team.

As an individual, each player can make their own choices and decisions involving drinking and sexual activity. Those choices and decisions reflect on themselves as an individual.

But, as a member of the Gopher football team, their choices and decisions also reflect on the group as a whole. And that is the sticking point here.

Individuals make decisions and choices based on their individual wants and needs. If they want to have sex, they can have sex, and any consequences are felt by the individual only. (and their partner)

But, for the players in this incident, I believe they acted selfishly. They put their individual wants and needs ahead of the group. As a member of a D1 team, in the back of their minds, every decision they make - every choice they make - needs to be weighed against the potential impact on the group. They need to be asking themselves how this choice will impact and reflect on the group as a whole.

They are not random students - they are scholarship athletes at the U of MN. As such, they are judged differently in the court of public opinion.

As I said, they may very well have been within their individual rights to make their own choices about alcohol use and sexual activity - but they forgot about their responsibilities to the group - their teammates.

Those are the people I feel bad for - the other players, who have to share in the impact of those choices.

You may well believe the "Gopher 10" are being treated unfairly by the U administration. but, they are not blameless in this matter.
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SON, I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think your post is entirely fair.

These athletes are facing MUCH more than being punished as football players. Put that aside for this discussion. These are 10 students at the U that are being lumped into a sexual assault allegation. Whatever opinions you have about drinking alcohol and particular sex acts should be minute next to a sexual assault allegation.

If a student is innocent and they are facing expulsion from the school (not just suspended from football) and are being repeatedly linked to a sexual assault, that is travesty. Regardless of your opinion on their sexual practices.

Drinking - - - I would agree with your point if you also were OK with punishing all student athletes who drink.
Sex - - - Man, you're treading on some pretty personal territory. If a member of a women's team slept with too many guys (whatever number that is for you), would you say she ignored her responsibilities to her teammates?

As far as responsibilities to teammates - - - who gets to determine that? Do you think coaches should add sections to their team rule book on what sexual activities are acceptable and which are not? If it didn't violate a rule, who gets to determine what let their teammates down?

I think your argument of letting down teammates doesn't jive with reality. I doubt they violated a team rule (with the sex). I highly doubt their teammates feel let down by specific sexual acts. This still feels like something you personally disagree with and it is sort of trying to masked by this "responsibility to their teammates" argument.
 


Would there have been a different outcome if it had been 6 girls and one guy, my guess is no the one guy would still be gone.


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