STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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die hard gopher said:
But they lose out on the Tommie Johnnie game. Two years ago, over 37,000 people went to Tommie-Johnnie at Target field. 4 years ago SportsCenter came to SJU for Tommie-Johnnie and it was essentially just like College Gameday. I believe aside from the target field game, the top 5 or so highest attended DIII football games ever have been Tommie-Johnnie at SJU. Thats a big loss for SJU and CSB as well. And the basketball games are pretty big too.

If UST stays in DIII then they can likely find a way to preserve the rivalry but if they go up a level then that is very unfortunate for SJU.
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You can't make a decision based on one football game. The whole system is out of whack. Even the high school St. Thomas Academy dominates sports like swimming due to their huge depth. They need to move up as well like they did in hockey (they fought for years to do that).
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
If you're St. Thomas, it might not make a ton of sense.

Essentially, for St. Thomas it becomes sort of like the NDSU game for the Gophers. It makes a ton of sense for St. Johns, I am not sure sure about St. Thomas. If they're in the WIAC, they could likely play a game at Target Field against UWW in a couple of years that would be huge (I'm sure a rivalry would form), if they're in the Norther Sun, a game against UMD could be a big deal.

None of them will have the tradition that is the St. Johns/St. Thomas rivalry, but that's dead now. Part of that is that they were in the same conference.
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I'm genuinely curious to hear the reasoning behind why it wouldn't make sense for St. Thomas to continue playing St. John's. (Assuming UST stays D3 -- obviously there is no incentive for the Tommies to play that game if they move up to D2/D1.)

I think the tradition will be fine if St. Thomas stays D3. Will it be hurt by not having a conference championship on the line? Maybe a little bit, but the only way it dies out altogether is if they stop playing annually.
 

WoodburyTim said:
Perhaps. But if you think this doesn't change the visibility and perception of the MIAC, then I don't know what to tell you. And that change can't help but to affect SJU.
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I get that, but also think some of the "sky is falling" stuff is overblown. The MIAC isn't all that visible to begin with, and there isn't much of a perception to protect outside of the state of MN. Plenty of people know the name Mount Union due to their success in D3 football, but could anyone here name their conference or any other teams in that conference without looking it up? Probably not many, and this is a football board.

Ultimately, I just think it's not that big of a deal. UST will be fine. SJU will be fine. The MIAC will be fine. Short term hit? Sure. But this has been brewing for a really long time and I think it's better they just got it over with.
 

bizzle22 said:
I get that, but also think some of the "sky is falling" stuff is overblown. The MIAC isn't all that visible to begin with, and there isn't much of a perception to protect outside of the state of MN. Plenty of people know the name Mount Union due to their success in D3 football, but could anyone here name their conference or any other teams in that conference without looking it up? Probably not many, and this is a football board.

Ultimately, I just think it's not that big of a deal. UST will be fine. SJU will be fine. The MIAC will be fine. Short term hit? Sure. But this has been brewing for a really long time and I think it's better they just got it over with.
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Yes this all obviously relative. In the grand scheme of things not that many people care, but it is a fun talker.
 

I am disappointed with the media coverage. You have people like Jay Bilas - who I am sure knows nothing about the MIAC - tweeting about "team gets thrown out of conference for being too good."

the MIAC schools botched the media and public relations aspects of this whole thing. They allowed St. Thomas to come out looking like the victim.

St Thomas has a D2 level athletic budget, facilities that are mostly D2 quality, and they want to stay in a D3 conference. And they're the victim? horse hockey. St. Thomas wants to have their cake and eat it, too.

if your kid gets so fat that his pants don't fit, you don't blame the pants. St. Thomas outgrew the conference, and people are blaming the conference.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
I am disappointed with the media coverage. You have people like Jay Bilas - who I am sure knows nothing about the MIAC - tweeting about "team gets thrown out of conference for being too good."

the MIAC schools botched the media and public relations aspects of this whole thing. They allowed St. Thomas to come out looking like the victim.

St Thomas has a D2 level athletic budget, facilities that are mostly D2 quality, and they want to stay in a D3 conference. And they're the victim? horse hockey. St. Thomas wants to have their cake and eat it, too.

if your kid gets so fat that his pants don't fit, you don't blame the pants. St. Thomas outgrew the conference, and people are blaming the conference.
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This is where I don't understand the faux outrage against the MIAC. As an extreme example, it would be beyond ridiculous to think the U of Minnesota or even UofM Duluth would be a good fit for the MIAC. What are the reasons why those larger schools are not a good fit? Do any, or most, of those same reasons apply to St. Thomas as well? Probably.
 

Panthadad2 said:
This is where I don't understand the faux outrage against the MIAC. As an extreme example, it would be beyond ridiculous to think the U of Minnesota or even UofM Duluth would be a good fit for the MIAC. What are the reasons why those larger schools are not a good fit? Do any, or most, of those same reasons apply to St. Thomas as well? Probably.
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Because St. Thomas should make the decision, not a bunch of self-righteous paper tigers.

And the Tommies would over time.
 

highwayman said:
Because St. Thomas should make the decision, not a bunch of self-righteous paper tigers.

And the Tommies would over time.
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If it was going to happen anyway, enough with the crocodile tears.
 

bizzle22 said:
I get that, but also think some of the "sky is falling" stuff is overblown. The MIAC isn't all that visible to begin with, and there isn't much of a perception to protect outside of the state of MN. Plenty of people know the name Mount Union due to their success in D3 football, but could anyone here name their conference or any other teams in that conference without looking it up? Probably not many, and this is a football board.

Ultimately, I just think it's not that big of a deal. UST will be fine. SJU will be fine. The MIAC will be fine. Short term hit? Sure. But this has been brewing for a really long time and I think it's better they just got it over with.
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I see this argument up to a point, but if that is in fact the case I would need to see the hard numbers on athletic spending and facilities. It sounds like St. Thomas has outpaced the conference, but I haven't seen a spreadsheet type breakdown. And even after accepting that argument I am still left with the thought that once St. Thomas is gone that makes another school in the MIAC the biggest spender. Maybe they have had internal discussions we aren't privy to, but there must be some general parameters the MIAC has setup on what level of investment is permissible in keeping with character of the MIAC schools and what isn't.
 



highwayman said:
Because St. Thomas should make the decision, not a bunch of self-righteous paper tigers.

And the Tommies would over time.
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Sure. But this has been brewing since the early 2000s when St. Thomas, on their own, studied moving up and out (and did nothing). Is 15 years enough time? The football issue in the Caruso era just pushed it to the forefront.

In the end, the "involuntary" perception aspect of this just might make UST's path forward to other conferences that much easier.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Sure. But this has been brewing since the early 2000s when St. Thomas, on their own, studied moving up and out (and did nothing). Is 15 years enough time? The football issue in the Caruso era just pushed it to the forefront.

In the end, the "involuntary" perception aspect of this just might make UST's path forward to other conferences that much easier.
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Yeah I'm not sure this should be a surprise to St. Thomas as they already were moving on ... without actually moving on.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Sure. But this has been brewing since the early 2000s when St. Thomas, on their own, studied moving up and out (and did nothing). Is 15 years enough time? The football issue in the Caruso era just pushed it to the forefront.

In the end, the "involuntary" perception aspect of this just might make UST's path forward to other conferences that much easier.
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Bingo... This, exactly.

It is also ironic you used UMD as one of your "extreme examples" because they were a longtime member of the MIAC, and moved out on their own, on their own terms when they outgrew the conference. Instead should the rest of the conference sucked it up and matched UMD's athletic department (and hockey team)?
 
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WoodburyTim said:
I see this argument up to a point, but if that is in fact the case I would need to see the hard numbers on athletic spending and facilities. It sounds like St. Thomas has outpaced the conference, but I haven't seen a spreadsheet type breakdown. And even after accepting that argument I am still left with the thought that once St. Thomas is gone that makes another school in the MIAC the biggest spender. Maybe they have had internal discussions we aren't privy to, but there must be some general parameters the MIAC has setup on what level of investment is permissible in keeping with character of the MIAC schools and what isn't.
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You can pretty easily pull a spreadsheet on direct athletic department expenses via the DOE Equity in Athletics website. UST spends about 25% more than the average conference school with football which isn't a huge amount ($4.9M vs $3.9M average). What those spreadsheets don't show is probably what's key here though. You'll never find public stats for the range of admitted GPAs or ACT scores by team, financial aid by team, how much is supported via donation, etc.
 
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highwayman said:
Because St. Thomas should make the decision, not a bunch of self-righteous paper tigers.

And the Tommies would over time.
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Based on what? There is no evidence they were considering moving up or out in the last decade. They just stated a couple months ago they were dedicated to the conference and DIII. If they were legitimately considering moving anyway, why would they not have just told the other conference members they would agree to move in the next X years a few months ago and it would have been tabled. Where do you see any evidence they ever would have moved on their own?

To me, this is like getting laid off from a bad job. Sometimes you know your job is awful, but you don't put in the effort to get out of it. Then you get laid off, end up finding a new job that's a much better fit. May never have looked had you not been laid off, but everyone ends up better off.
 


NDSU should be kicked out of the MVFC and the Championship Subdivision. Makes perfect sense. They have an unfair advantage.
 


Will MIAC now invite St. Scholastica to their league?
 


MennoSota said:
They're wooing back Macalester. [emoji57]
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I assume this is tongue-in-cheek. But, gawd no. Besides, Mac seems have a good thing going now with their current football schedule playing an interesting and competitive (for them) schedule in the Upper Midwest. I doubt they want to return to getting monkey stomped 3 or 4 times a year in the MIAC.
 

Panthadad2 said:
I assume this is tongue-in-cheek. But, gawd no. Besides, Mac seems have a good thing going now with their current football schedule playing an interesting and competitive (for them) schedule in the Upper Midwest. I doubt they want to return to getting monkey stomped 3 or 4 times a year in the MIAC.
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Actually, I have seen comments that suggest this is part of the equation. some have suggested a quid pro quo where Mac would return to the MIAC if St. Thomas was out. yes, Mac struggled in football, but they were competitive in other sports. They had some fun men's basketball teams in the 70's - leading to one of the greatest cheers of all time - "Sink it, sink it, Quitman Pinkett." Pinkett was a guard for Mac in the 70's. let's just say he played the game with a certain style that was slightly ahead of his time. but it was fun to watch.
 

Panthadad2 said:
I assume this is tongue-in-cheek. But, gawd no. Besides, Mac seems have a good thing going now with their current football schedule playing an interesting and competitive (for them) schedule in the Upper Midwest. I doubt they want to return to getting monkey stomped 3 or 4 times a year in the MIAC.
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I thought Mac was in for everything except football.

That said, I believe your suggestion is likely correct and it perfectly illustrates the problem with the mindset about kicking St. Thomas out.

Mac might not going the MIAC and it would likely be for the exact reasons you mentioned. That is true despite the fact that they are 5-1 in the last three years against MIAC schools. They would also likely beat Augsburg and they'd be extremely competitive against St. Olaf (similar results against similar competition). Essentially, they could fight to be a middle of the pack MIAC team.

But you're right, I wouldn't be shocked if they'd turn it down to play because they'd get beat so bad by Bethel/St. Johns.
 

SVP chimes in:

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Go Gophers!!
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Actually, I have seen comments that suggest this is part of the equation. some have suggested a quid pro quo where Mac would return to the MIAC if St. Thomas was out. yes, Mac struggled in football, but they were competitive in other sports. They had some fun men's basketball teams in the 70's - leading to one of the greatest cheers of all time - "Sink it, sink it, Quitman Pinkett." Pinkett was a guard for Mac in the 70's. let's just say he played the game with a certain style that was slightly ahead of his time. but it was fun to watch.
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Yes, Mac is competitive in several other sports in the MIAC and actually has an athletic budget near the top of the conference. For whatever reason, their football has seldom been competitive with the top half of the MIAC in recent memory (they had some tough teams for a brief time in the 80s). It probably comes down to the high number of student athletes required to field a good D3 football team (often way over 100) and Mac's high academic standards which preclude that in this market. Mac pulled its football team out of the MIAC for good reason and I doubt they want to return at this point.

There are competitive football teams at high academic schools out east (Johns Hopkins comes to mind and MIT to a lesser extent) but it might not be realistic in this market.
 
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Hoping they go WIAC. Genuinely interested to see how they do in a stacked conference like that.
 

theTurning said:
Hoping they go WIAC. Genuinely interested to see how they do in a stacked conference like that.
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Probably the best fit unless this whole episode has made the UST administration reconsider their priorities and want to go whole hog into athletics.




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Gopherphile said:
Probably the best fit unless this whole episode has made the UST administration reconsider their priorities and want to go whole hog into athletics.


They probably would be very pleased with the WIAC, much more so than the Northern Sun option, which really does not do a whole lot for Saint Thomas.

My few sources tell me that there is real steam behind the FCS/ D1 path, and if some real money can be corralled it could happen. I doubt the No. Sun does much to mobilize the alumni, but playing D1 hockey and basketball with a pitch of Big East glory way down the road (Summit League or anything they can get first) is something they can sell.

My guess is they would try to go Pioneer League (no scholarship) DI FCS football (Butler, Dayton, Univ. of San Diego, Davidson, Morehead St., Drake, Presbyterian and a few more) to keep the title IX balance from getting out of hand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League

St. Thomas has proven they can raise a lot of money in recent years, and if they have a couple of Denny T Sanford types out there ready to bite, this could happen. The recent hire of Phil Esten to be AD fits with this direction as well.

My guess is this happens eventually if they can land the big fish donors, and the WIAC would be the desired fallback option.
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oak_street1981 said:
Gopherphile said:
Probably the best fit unless this whole episode has made the UST administration reconsider their priorities and want to go whole hog into athletics.


They probably would be very pleased with the WIAC, much more so than the Northern Sun option, which really does not do a whole lot for Saint Thomas.

My few sources tell me that there is real steam behind the FCS/ D1 path, and if some real money can be corralled it could happen. I doubt the No. Sun does much to mobilize the alumni, but playing D1 hockey and basketball with a pitch of Big East glory way down the road (Summit League or anything they can get first) is something they can sell.

My guess is they would try to go Pioneer League (no scholarship) DI FCS football (Butler, Dayton, Univ. of San Diego, Davidson, Morehead St., Drake, Presbyterian and a few more) to keep the title IX balance from getting out of hand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League

St. Thomas has proven they can raise a lot of money in recent years, and if they have a couple of Denny T Sanford types out there ready to bite, this could happen. The recent hire of Phil Esten to be AD fits with this direction as well.

My guess is this happens eventually if they can land the big fish donors, and the WIAC would be the desired fallback option.
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Great post. My thoughts exactly. DII makes little or no sense so either stay within a regional DIII environment or move up all the way.

With that said, I think the lack of natural rivalries hinders the WIAC direction. If it was a conference made up of schools like Saint Norbert or Beloit College, you could envision new rivalries (and perhaps Saint Johns leaving the MIAC as well) but I just don’t see UST vs. Wisconsin Whitewater ever being a draw for a private.


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I disagree a little about the the lack of fit with the WIAC to some degree, as I think Eau Claire, Stout, River Falls and even La Crosse are close enough and familiar to recruits, students and the general public, and I think some pretty good rivalries could get built up.

I still think St. Thomas is pretty serious about making the big leap if they can close some of the big fish donors on this concept. The only thing that draws fans now is the SJU football game, and a move up to FCS/ D1 could energize a sleepy alumni/ stakeholder base of significant size and means.

They can play DI basketball in the current gym and play downtown at the Xcel Energy Center once in a while for a few "big" games. They can play baseball on campus or in Lowertown at the Saints Stadium. They can play Pioneer League football on campus or at the new MN United stadium at Snelling/University on occasion or even have a few marketing/ gimmicky type games at US Bank Stadium and draw.

I think there has been a void in the marketplace in Minnesota for a second D1 basketball team. St. Thomas can fill that space, and get some attention and raise the profile of the institution. If Saint Thomas can pull it off, others will question why they did not do it first.
 
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Gopherphile said:
oak_street1981 said:
Great post. My thoughts exactly. DII makes little or no sense so either stay within a regional DIII environment or move up all the way.

With that said, I think the lack of natural rivalries hinders the WIAC direction. If it was a conference made up of schools like Saint Norbert or Beloit College, you could envision new rivalries (and perhaps Saint Johns leaving the MIAC as well) but I just don’t see UST vs. Wisconsin Whitewater ever being a draw for a private.


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Why doesnt D2 make sense? I think Northern Sun is a gimee, and isnt Augustana leaving so they have a spot to fill? UMD and Bemidji used to be MIAC teams once upon a time, I believe ( at least St Johns played them every year).
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