STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

Donate To GopherHole
Schnauzer said:
Just a guess on my part but I wouldn't be surprised to hear an announcement in a few days that St. Thomas is joining the WIAC.

I give that a 60% chance. I give it a 35% chance it is the DII Northern Sun, and a 5% chance it is something else.
Click to expand...

Agree with this. I don't see the D1 thing happening at all just because they would have to move up in all sports and too expensive.
 

xyz1 said:
An updated Strib article cites the 97-0 defeat of St. Olaf in 2017 as what really got the ball rolling with the anti-St. Thomas movement. Out of curiosity I looked up the box score for that game, and learned that St. Thomas passed the ball on seven consecutive plays on their first drive of the second half, while up 64-0, and with Jacques Perra, the starter, still in the game. They mostly ran the ball after that, but if you wonder where hard feelings about St. Thomas might have come from, that may be a good place to start.
Click to expand...

That's the rumor, that it all started with that game.
 


ethomasp31 said:
Prediction....the vote will be 12-1 to remove UST from the MIAC. I also don't think it's about football nearly as much as people on here think....UST just outgrew the league, and probably Division III as well.
Click to expand...

Good call, sounds like it was actually 13-0.
 

PMWinSTP said:
I don't think they would need to move up in all sports.
Click to expand...

It is actually all or nothing, other than hockey and a few other grandfathered exceptions (John Hopkins/Lax)
 


I had a conversation with a MIAC coach in a high profile sport about UST recently. I know one of the frustrations of other coaches is that St. Thomas has been over recruiting with the sole purpose of keeping other MIAC's from getting players. They have the money for recruiting and aid packages. It's very frustrating for other schools who can't compete with their recruiting budget. They spend their resources on a player and then St. Thomas swoops in at the end and grabs the kid. This coach once worked for UST so he/she knows the drill and now is on the other side.

bizzle22 said:
Never said otherwise. But when a school twice the size of any other institution in it's conference starts spending more money than all the other schools on athletics and wins twelve all sports trophies in a row in that conference it's not a stretch to say that they don't really fit in that conference anymore.

The argument that the other schools should "get better at sports" or spend more on athletics makes sense if we are talking about D1 power conferences. There is nowhere else for those schools to go. For schools in a mid-tier D3 conference that argument doesn't hold water.
Click to expand...
 


West Fargo Gopher Fan said:
Agree with this. I don't see the D1 thing happening at all just because they would have to move up in all sports and too expensive.
Click to expand...

NCAA rules do not allow a jump directly from DIII to DI. The school must first transition to DII and then to DI, but only after a conference invite. The process would take the better part of or all of a decade to complete. If I'm the NSIC, why would I let a school in that I know is only ramping up to DI? St. Thomas would be an attractive school to a handful of low/mid-major conferences like the Summit League or Missouri Valley but DI would be the long game.
 

Onside kick and go for every 4th down and 2pc while they're still in the conference
 



Ope3 said:
It is actually all or nothing, other than hockey and a few other grandfathered exceptions (John Hopkins/Lax)
Click to expand...

You can get permission if you ask the NCAA too. Doesn't happen often but I don't think people ask often either.


I wish U Chicago could do it for hockey.
 

A notable quote in the release from the St Thomas president is reference to St. T's location in the Twin Cities making it attractive to several conferences. The reference could certainly refer to easy bus rides for most WIAC or NSIC schools but allusion to "several" suggests that St. Thomas is looking beyond bus rides. Geography and not the Twin Cities make easy bus rides. Twin Cities mean television sets and sponsorships. DII really is gross, really, and St. T should only view DII as a necessary stepping stone. They either move to WIAC or DI. DII is a dirty option.
 

Swede said:
A notable quote in the release from the St Thomas president is reference to St. T's location in the Twin Cities making it attractive to several conferences. The reference could certainly refer to easy bus rides for most WIAC or NSIC schools but allusion to "several" suggests that St. Thomas is looking beyond bus rides. Geography and not the Twin Cities make easy bus rides. Twin Cities mean television sets and sponsorships. DII really is gross, really, and St. T should only view DII as a necessary stepping stone. They either move to WIAC or DI. DII is a dirty option.
Click to expand...

Agree with this.

Either 3 or 1

2 would be awful for UST
 




West Fargo Gopher Fan said:
Unless they get an Ncaa exception they would. Rules have changed. You have to move up in all sports now. Schools like St Cloud State are grandfathered in
Click to expand...

You don’t have to go D1 in football, that could be FCS and be non scholarship, all other sports must be D1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

gregbrady said:
You don’t have to go D1 in football, that could be FCS and be non scholarship, all other sports must be D1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
FCS is D1 so all sports. Football is what we are talking about in this thread.

It doesn't matter anyway St Thomas isn't going D1

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

Panthadad2 said:
The numbers I included above include scholarships and all other expenses directly related to hockey. Not included would be extra administrative people (compliance) and other overhead not directly related. Just doing quick math, average cost to St. Thomas students is about $30K per year, X 18 fully funded scholarships X 2 teams = ~$1M per year in incremental scholarship cost. I'm not saying UST should go D1 hockey, I'm just saying it's not $20M unless you're including some major one-time infrastructure investment.
Click to expand...

The following link ASU Hockey: How the Sun Devils became a Division I team said, it took ASU $32 million to start up their program. Granted this article is a blog but he claims to have done research.
 


dpodoll68 said:
I have zero allegiance to any of the MIAC schools, so I have little care from a fan perspective. But from a karmic justice perspective - I hope UST wins 222-0. I hope they just absolutely run train on the entire conference over the next two years.
Click to expand...

They probably won’t win FB this yr. knock on wood.
 


4four4 said:
The following link ASU Hockey: How the Sun Devils became a Division I team said, it took ASU $32 million to start up their program. Granted this article is a blog but he claims to have done research.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. Good article. Key article quote about cost "At the time, club coach Greg Powers estimated the team would need a financial of endowment of approximately $30 million, with annual operating budget of close to $1 million." So ASU (and Penn State to a larger extent) solicited large endowment donations that would essentially pay for annual hockey costs into perpetuity. In other words, hockey at those schools is basically a freebie to the school because of the donations. I would assume UST would look for something similar if that's where they decide to go.
 

Swede said:
A notable quote in the release from the St Thomas president is reference to St. T's location in the Twin Cities making it attractive to several conferences. The reference could certainly refer to easy bus rides for most WIAC or NSIC schools but allusion to "several" suggests that St. Thomas is looking beyond bus rides. Geography and not the Twin Cities make easy bus rides. Twin Cities mean television sets and sponsorships. DII really is gross, really, and St. T should only view DII as a necessary stepping stone. They either move to WIAC or DI. DII is a dirty option.
Click to expand...

Are there eyeballs to be had in the other conferences ... like are they on TV much?
 

Someone explain to me how D2 is sufficiently dirty for them to not want to stay there.

Also, the local media has been playing up St. Thomas as the victim in all of this. Given all the data points available, that's a really hard sell.
 

xyz1 said:
An updated Strib article cites the 97-0 defeat of St. Olaf in 2017 as what really got the ball rolling with the anti-St. Thomas movement. Out of curiosity I looked up the box score for that game, and learned that St. Thomas passed the ball on seven consecutive plays on their first drive of the second half, while up 64-0, and with Jacques Perra, the starter, still in the game. They mostly ran the ball after that, but if you wonder where hard feelings about St. Thomas might have come from, that may be a good place to start.
Click to expand...

If this is really the blame for people wanting St. Thomas to leave the conference, then the MIAC is a bigger joke than I thought.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a team running their normal offense with their starters on the first drive in the second half.

Let's break down this game:
UST pulled their starters with 11 minutes left in the 3rd quarter.
UST brought in their backups and had them run their normal offense (no trick plays, no onside kicks, etc.) and the backups attempted 6 passes.
Their last pass was with 14 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

Sorry, that is simply doing it the right way. No one should ever expect a team to go into a complete shell or pull their starters at half time. No one should expect the backups to not have any opportunity to run the normal offense. This is pretty standard stuff here.
 

3399 said:
I had a conversation with a MIAC coach in a high profile sport about UST recently. I know one of the frustrations of other coaches is that St. Thomas has been over recruiting with the sole purpose of keeping other MIAC's from getting players. They have the money for recruiting and aid packages. It's very frustrating for other schools who can't compete with their recruiting budget. They spend their resources on a player and then St. Thomas swoops in at the end and grabs the kid. This coach once worked for UST so he/she knows the drill and now is on the other side.
Click to expand...

They recruited players other programs wanted? That's horrendous.
 

The conference, and specifically a few schools like Concordia and Gustavus were really put in a tough spot in this. The situation arose where a significant portion of the conference membership would leave (and the conference would cease to exist) if St. Thomas stayed. So some of the votes to get rid of St. Thomas were made to preserve the conference, not specifically to jetison St. Thomas.

That reality coupled with the fact the conference and pretty much everyone but St. Thomas appears to be on a gag order has left a situation where the MIAC is taking a BEATING in the press and on Twitter. Very frustrating to see all the comments about "I hope St. Thomas flattens the rest of the conference in the two years they have left" and "Why don't they give everyone a participation trophy?"

So, the school that is up to 4x larger than other membership, with recruiting budgets and facilities better than most D2 schools becomes the victim. Literally at every turn, there are comments like I saw on KARE 11 sunrise this morning: "Maybe the other schools should have just tried harder." I partially blame the MIAC itself for this because they have not stated their case and it is an easy case to make. I believe part of that is because they don't want to bad mouth STU but in return, they are taking a beating in public opinion.

I saw nearly ZERO media coverage yesterday comparing school size, facilities, budgets, etc. and also little on the FACT the conference would have disbanded if STU remained. Media likes water cooler chat material and the narrative a school is "being kicked out because they are too good" and "see, look how soft we have all become - everyone wants a trophy" - these things are just too juicy to pass up. And, it gets fueled by people that assume it was an equal playing field in the MIAC or even MIAC alumni that fondly recall beating UST in something in their day.

Sadly, UST simply should have seen the writing on the wall and done this themselves in an orderly fashion long ago.
 

Schnauzer said:
The conference, and specifically a few schools like Concordia and Gustavus were really put in a tough spot in this. The situation arose where a significant portion of the conference membership would leave (and the conference would cease to exist) if St. Thomas stayed. So some of the votes to get rid of St. Thomas were made to preserve the conference, not specifically to jetison St. Thomas.

That reality coupled with the fact the conference and pretty much everyone but St. Thomas appears to be on a gag order has left a situation where the MIAC is taking a BEATING in the press and on Twitter. Very frustrating to see all the comments about "I hope St. Thomas flattens the rest of the conference in the two years they have left" and "Why don't they give everyone a participation trophy?"

So, the school that is up to 4x larger than other membership, with recruiting budgets and facilities better than most D2 schools becomes the victim. Literally at every turn, there are comments like I saw on KARE 11 sunrise this morning: "Maybe the other schools should have just tried harder." I partially blame the MIAC itself for this because they have not stated their case and it is an easy case to make. I believe part of that is because they don't want to bad mouth STU but in return, they are taking a beating in public opinion.

I saw nearly ZERO media coverage yesterday comparing school size, facilities, budgets, etc. and also little on the FACT the conference would have disbanded if STU remained. Media likes water cooler chat material and the narrative a school is "being kicked out because they are too good" and "see, look how soft we have all become - everyone wants a trophy" - these things are just too juicy to pass up. And, it gets fueled by people that assume it was an equal playing field in the MIAC or even MIAC alumni that fondly recall beating UST in something in their day.

Sadly, UST simply should have seen the writing on the wall and done this themselves in an orderly fashion long ago.
Click to expand...

It's hard to believe UST leadership was obtuse enough over the last 10-15 years to not realize this was brewing in the background. They could have used a transition on their own timeline as a new exciting marketing initiative for UST to set a new and better course. But no, they end up holding their d***cks in this cluster - being forced to move.

Part of me believes the other schools are letting UST set the narrative here (with UST as the poor victim) to help them make the move out or up. Either that or they're afraid they would get sued.
 

Makes the MIAC look pretty small. And overall if they just want to be a conference like the one Ripon and Grinnell and the likes play in that is fine, but I think it is fair then that we don't need write ups on their games in the Sunday Trib or Sunday Pioneer Press. Maybe a little blurb on the score like Nortwestern Bible College gets when they beat Crown College. I didn't go to any of the MIAC schools, but I'll admit I enjoyed following casually who was winning the various sports in the MIAC, but a bush league move like this pretty much makes me not care about the MIAC anymore. However, I am interested to see how things play out for St. Thomas.
 

WoodburyTim said:
Makes the MIAC look pretty small. And overall if they just want to be a conference like the one Ripon and Grinnell and the likes play in that is fine, but I think it is fair then that we don't need write ups on their games in the Sunday Trib or Sunday Pioneer Press. Maybe a little blurb on the score like Nortwestern Bible College gets when they beat Crown College. I didn't go to any of the MIAC schools, but I'll admit I enjoyed following casually who was winning the various sports in the MIAC, but a bush league move like this pretty much makes me not care about the MIAC anymore. However, I am interested to see how things play out for St. Thomas.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what is going to happen to the MIAC in the Twin Cities.
 

I would note that I was not endorsing expulsion of St. Thomas based on the 2017 St. Olaf game, but simply observing what had happened in that game, and why the anti-St. Thomas push might have gained momentum from there. There is no good way to handle games that are mismatches to that degree (and the fact that these games were occurring with some frequency is why this whole thing happened); even if the outcome is never in doubt, even before the game starts, you can't expect St. Thomas to not try. Although one might reasonably wonder whether there might have been something additional going on to explain that much passing on that first drive of the second half.
 

Panthadad2 said:
It's hard to believe UST leadership was obtuse enough over the last 10-15 years to not realize this was brewing in the background. They could have used a transition on their own timeline as a new exciting marketing initiative for UST to set a new and better course. But no, they end up holding their d***cks in this cluster - being forced to move.

Part of me believes the other schools are letting UST set the narrative here (with UST as the poor victim) to help them make the move out or up. Either that or they're afraid they would get sued.
Click to expand...

Huh? I think this is terrific marketing for UST. They were just on the cover of ESPN for getting kicked out of their league for being too good. They really only have a handful of viable options (the same they would have had if they were proactive a few years ago). As far as playing a victim card, I don't really see that. Typically the "poor victim" card doesn't entail you saying essentially "they hate us because we dominate them".
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom