Specifically, what is your minimum threshold to call 2017 season a success?

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bottlebass said:
So what exactly are you accusing Claeys of then? How is any of this his fault like you claimed. You yourself made mistakes in college (so did I, many of them). Kids will make mistakes no matter what. This happens at every university and in every football program, people need to stop pretending like there was something special going on here and Claeys is to blame.
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He blames Claeys for his mistakes too.


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bottlebass said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. We'll never be a relevant program again with a mentality like yours. Some of us want to see the gophers win the B1G and go to a rose bowl again. Others, like you, enjoy the mediocrity of the last 50 years. Hopefully Fleck disappoints you by actually winning.
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KGF isn't saying he'd be upset with a 9-win season. But he and others (including myself) just aren't expecting it in the first season after a coaching change. We aren't demanding it.

The way you and others talk about the word "elite" and other things Fleck have said, it would be a failure in your eyes (and probably grounds for firing) to win only 9 games in the first year, right? After all, you've already made the demand that 10 wins is the floor.
 

With how this thread topic has turned, where do you all think Dantonio lands when he gets canned?
 

joshvanklomp said:
KGF isn't saying he'd be upset with a 9-win season. But he and others (including myself) just aren't expecting it in the first season after a coaching change. We aren't demanding it.

The way you and others talk about the word "elite" and other things Fleck have said, it would be a failure in your eyes (and probably grounds for firing) to win only 9 games in the first year, right? After all, you've already made the demand that 10 wins is the floor.
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Incorrect. The coach has stated his expectations to us and the team. He thinks it will be a failure if they don't win at least 8 regular season games and a bowl game, and I agree. But no where have I said he should be fired if he doesn't reach that expectation. That is ridiculous.
 





short ornery norwegian said:
There is no way to know what Claeys would have done next year, or in the future.

I could say that the US would be better off if Hillary had won the election, and there's no way to prove or disprove the statement. I could say the Gopher Men's BB program would be better off if Tubby was still coaching, and there's no way to prove or disprove the statement.

SO, when people say we'll be better off in 2 or 3 years under Fleck than we would have been under Claeys, it's meaningless. There's no way to prove or disprove the statement.

Claeys had 1 full year as HC of a program, with input over hiring staff. No one can say what would have happened going forward. The program might have gone in the tank, or they might have won a conference title. We don't know. We'll never know.

I just wish the Fleck supporters would stop using that argument as justification. I will say this - if - for any reason - the Gophers win 5 or 6 games next year, there will be people on this board claiming the Gophers would have have a better record with Claeys as coach. And there will be no way to prove or disprove that statement, either.
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Agree with most of what you are saying, but not the part where you tell people that they can't have an opinion.
 

Spoofin said:
You stated that the event of Sept 2nd was because TC didn't set the right standards. I am now asking you if PJF is responsible for the 2 freshmen on his team that committed armed robbery as well. I would say no to both, but certainly you won't use a different standard for PJF. Certainly not.

Stop side-stepping and answer.
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I'm not side stepping anything, I have other things to do.
I don't live in Minnesota, so I'm not sure what armed robbery you're referring to. It doesn't really matter. I hold PJF to the same standard that I would hold any coach to.
I don't know where this narrative that I'm a PJF worshipper came from. I've met the guy a couple times when he was coaching at NIU. Seemed like a good guy. He's run a winning program at WMU and had some great coaching experiences. He's more flamboyant that I prefer in coaches that I admire, but I kind of think the Gopher need that right now. That's all.
 



bottlebass said:
He won't get canned. MSU has an actual AD.
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I'll give it another shot...

Can't remember...where did old man Pitino end up landing after all the stuff that went down at Louisville?
 


KillerGopherFan said:
I'm not side stepping anything, I have other things to do.
I don't live in Minnesota, so I'm not sure what armed robbery you're referring to. It doesn't really matter. I hold PJF to the same standard that I would hold any coach to.
I don't know where this narrative that I'm a PJF worshipper came from. I've met the guy a couple times when he was coaching at NIU. Seemed like a good guy. He's run a winning program at WMU and had some great coaching experiences. He's more flamboyant that I prefer in coaches that I admire, but I kind of think the Gopher need that right now. That's all.
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Again - you didn't answer my question.

You stated TC was responsible for the 9/2 incident because his lack of standards. So, was PJF responsible for the armed robbery his players were arrested for?


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Jeez. With all this negativity, an outsider would've thought we hired a high school coach, not the hottest name in coaching circles. It almost makes me forget everyone calling for Claeys's head after the Wisconsin game. Now people are rushing to fellate him.

Regarding the topic, success would be 8 wins for me but I expect and would be satisfied with 6 or 7 based on the big question marks on our team. I would've had the same answer if Claeys was our head coach.
 

Spoofin said:
Why didn't PJF tell his kids not to commit armed robbery?

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2016/08/27/western-michigan-university-football/89489270/
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Ok, catching up on previous posts.
Coaches are 100% responsible for the errors of their players. PJF is responsible for these guys. Since it was likely to be adjudicated in the court, the consequences will dictate how WMU proceeds. If they believe they are guilty of violating Student Codes, whether the law convicts them or not, they're gone.
Could he have prevented it? I don't know. I'm not saying that coaches can prevent all player misconduct. What I said was that coaches must set standards and have consequences, and that will minimize misconduct.
I have never said TC should be fired for the Sept situation though it may be an indicator of a lack of discipline and standards. He did bungle he public position on the boycott, and that was likely the deciding factor in his dismissal. Or, like me and others believe, TC didn't seem to display the characteristics of a strong leader and head football coach of a B1G team.
 

Spoofin said:
Again - you didn't answer my question.

You stated TC was responsible for the 9/2 incident because his lack of standards. So, was PJF responsible for the armed robbery his players were arrested for?


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I didn't say TC was responsible for sexual assault. Fleck isn't responsible for armed robbery.
Fleck is responsible for his players' misconduct. Yes.
 

bottlebass said:
His expectation is to build on last years record, his words not mine.
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To build on a plot of land, don't you have to dig into the ground in order to lay a solid foundation? Or do you just start pouring without digging into the ground?
 


joshvanklomp said:
To build on a plot of land, don't you have to dig into the ground in order to lay a solid foundation?
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I think this is the football forum. I'm not sure though I've been known to mistake it for tOTB.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
If I am putting aside the complete hypocrisy of most Fleckophiles and answering this question based solely on the program:

9 wins would be a success (regardless of who we beat to get to those 9 wins)
7-8 wins would be. . . meh. I wouldn't call it a troubling but it wouldn't be a success
Anything less than 7 wins would be a step back.
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I'll let Bob answer for me. 7-8 wins would not be terribly troubling but also not elite. Less than 7, I don't care the excuses I'm disappointed. Find a way.
 

PMWinSTP said:
With how this thread topic has turned, where do you all think Dantonio lands when he gets canned?
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Mark Dantonio has had a pretty good recent history of discipline until this most recent event. The program has achieved some amazing on-field results since the player misconduct in 2010 or so, and very little misconduct, if any, until now.
If Dantonio has more events like this, has more seasons like the last one, and appears to be losing control of the program, he'd be fired or would resign.
 

joshvanklomp said:
To build on a plot of land, don't you have to dig into the ground in order to lay a solid foundation? Or do you just start pouring without digging into the ground?
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Bad analogy.This is not a build or rebuild. Foundation is there, nice house is there.

More like finishing off the basement, putting on an addition, adding a master bath, or redoing the kitchen.
 

joshvanklomp said:
To build on a plot of land, don't you have to dig into the ground in order to lay a solid foundation? Or do you just start pouring without digging into the ground?
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PJ has a foundation built with bricks. He's just adding insulation for the cold winters and repairing a few cracks.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Bad analogy.This is not a build or rebuild. Foundation is there, nice house is there.

More like finishing off the basement, putting on an addition, adding a master bath, or redoing the kitchen.
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Or this.. high five emote goes here.
 

It's a big turnaround job.

I'd be very happy with a new QB who takes the team to 5-7 or better during this culture change.

I don't expect the culture to be fully turned around for about 18-24 months, but it will be good to see we're bringing in a new culture which will change things here.
Success won't be measured by wins and losses for 2 years.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Bad analogy.This is not a build or rebuild. Foundation is there, nice house is there.

More like finishing off the basement, putting on an addition, adding a master bath, or redoing the kitchen.
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You don't dig into the ground when you put on an addition?

When you redo the kitchen floor, do you go down to the subfloor or just lay the new flooring over the old stuff? Do you paint over that old wallpaper or strip it down first?
 

joshvanklomp said:
You don't dig into the ground when you put on an addition?

When you redo the kitchen floor, do you go down to the subfloor or just lay the new flooring over the old stuff?
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Sounds like you might want Bob Vila to take over the program.
 



37score said:
It's a big turnaround job.

I'd be very happy with a new QB who takes the team to 5-7 or better during this culture change.

I don't expect the culture to be fully turned around for about 18-24 months, but it will be good to see we're bringing in a new culture which will change things here.
Success won't be measured by wins and losses for 2 years.
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Give it up. Your take is horrible and nonsensical.
 

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