Specifically, what is your minimum threshold to call 2017 season a success?

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dpodoll68 said:
Give it up. Your take is horrible and nonsensical.
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That's the great thing about "culture." It's a magical word - it can mean anything you want it to mean. Today on the Sports Huddle, Sid had a pre-taped interview with Fleck. Fleck said there are 20 players having surgery in the off-season. he said, and I quote, "That is part of the culture we need to change." So avoiding/preventing injuries is now part of the culture. Pretty soon, we'll find out that not having the QB throw interceptions in the red zone is part of the culture.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
That's the great thing about "culture." It's a magical word - it can mean anything you want it to mean. Today on the Sports Huddle, Sid had a pre-taped interview with Fleck. Fleck said there are 20 players having surgery in the off-season. he said, and I quote, "That is part of the culture we need to change." So avoiding/preventing injuries is now part of the culture. Pretty soon, we'll find out that not having the QB throw interceptions in the red zone is part of the culture.
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Yep, that is the "great" thing about it.

That is the problem here for me. PJF seems, IMO, like he is going to be a great coach here. I'm really glad we hired him. However, it is hard for me to like him a whole lot with the obvious BS he lays down at every chance. Then, when I see others like KGF, GWG, and 37 biting on every single word that comes out of his mouth it makes me doubt society as a whole. So, do I root for a guy that I think will turn around Gopher Football at the expense of mankind? I'm torn, but still rowing the boat.


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Spoofin said:
Yep, that is the "great" thing about it.

That is the problem here for me. PJF seems, IMO, like he is going to be a great coach here. I'm really glad we hired him. However, it is hard for me to like him a whole lot with the obvious BS he lays down at every chance. Then, when I see others like KGF, GWG, and 37 biting on every single word that comes out of his mouth it makes me doubt society as a whole. So, do I root for a guy that I think will turn around Gopher Football at the expense of mankind? I'm torn, but still rowing the boat.
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You're way overestimating my confidence in PJF, but I didn't see many other options for Gopher Football to make as big of a splash.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
On defense. The offense is a complete gut job outside of RB.
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I'm so tired of all the excuses. High school sports you get 10 days to prepare for your season and then you play a game. PJ has 20-30 whatever it is spring football practices. Film study time. S&C time. Meals and bonding time. Then 20-30 more fall practices. More film study time. S&C time. Meals and bonding time. Versus 10 days, where if you are really zealous you can cram some of the other stuff in high school to the uproar of parents and administration while changing culture. If you can't install your offense in 40 to 60 practices (whatever the allowable number) plus having daily access for 9 months to your players to change the culture, discuss technique, and motivate....more time isn't the answer. Each year, does a good coach improve his team game by game? Yes, a good coach does. Is it easier when you have leaders to echo your system/culture and players who know their roles...sure but it's not a valid excuse to play poorly. If you are trying to fit square pegs in round holes because you are too stubborn to alter your system in year one...that's on you as a coach. Sure you can make excuses. You can say have patience until we get our people but we already have capable people. Just utilize them. (Regarding offense: we had the lead in all our losses...if we do what do best and run the ball in the second half versus throw it for some inexplicable reason we win at least some of our losses. Our offense was good enough to get ahead. Just not smart enough to take some time off the clock at minimum in the second half or not turn it over by passing..)
 


Spoofin said:
Yep, that is the "great" thing about it.

That is the problem here for me. PJF seems, IMO, like he is going to be a great coach here. I'm really glad we hired him. However, it is hard for me to like him a whole lot with the obvious BS he lays down at every chance. Then, when I see others like KGF, GWG, and 37 biting on every single word that comes out of his mouth it makes me doubt society as a whole. So, do I root for a guy that I think will turn around Gopher Football at the expense of mankind? I'm torn, but still rowing the boat.


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How do you know it's BS?
 

60's Guy said:
I'm so tired of all the excuses. High school sports you get 10 days to prepare for your season and then you play a game. PJ has 20-30 whatever it is spring football practices. Film study time. S&C time. Meals and bonding time. Then 20-30 more fall practices. More film study time. S&C time. Meals and bonding time. Versus 10 days, where if you are really zealous you can cram some of the other stuff in high school to the uproar of parents and administration while changing culture. If you can't install your offense in 40 to 60 practices (whatever the allowable number) plus having daily access for 9 months to your players to change the culture, discuss technique, and motivate....more time isn't the answer. Each year, does a good coach improve his team game by game? Yes, a good coach does. Is it easier when you have leaders to echo your system/culture and players who know their roles...sure but it's not a valid excuse to play poorly. If you are trying to fit square pegs in round holes because you are too stubborn to alter your system in year one...that's on you as a coach. Sure you can make excuses. You can say have patience until we get our people but we already have capable people. Just utilize them. (Regarding offense: we had the lead in all our losses...if we do what do best and run the ball in the second half versus throw it for some inexplicable reason we win at least some of our losses. Our offense was good enough to get ahead. Just not smart enough to take some time off the clock at minimum in the second half or not turn it over by passing..)
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There's a lot of honesty/truth in this post and I am not going to attack you...but I think the disconnect is in what we should expect in 2017. People love to rip on Leidner, but he was one of the more prolific QBs in our program's history so he will have to be replaced. I'm not ready to proclaim what we SHOULD do in 2017 but the fact remains that we made a coaching change and the benefits of said change may not manifest itself in year one - but that doesn't necessarily mean the change wasn't the right choice.
 

60's Guy said:
I'm so tired of all the excuses. High school sports you get 10 days to prepare for your season and then you play a game. PJ has 20-30 whatever it is spring football practices. Film study time. S&C time. Meals and bonding time. Then 20-30 more fall practices. More film study time. S&C time. Meals and bonding time. Versus 10 days, where if you are really zealous you can cram some of the other stuff in high school to the uproar of parents and administration while changing culture. If you can't install your offense in 40 to 60 practices (whatever the allowable number) plus having daily access for 9 months to your players to change the culture, discuss technique, and motivate....more time isn't the answer. Each year, does a good coach improve his team game by game? Yes, a good coach does. Is it easier when you have leaders to echo your system/culture and players who know their roles...sure but it's not a valid excuse to play poorly. If you are trying to fit square pegs in round holes because you are too stubborn to alter your system in year one...that's on you as a coach. Sure you can make excuses. You can say have patience until we get our people but we already have capable people. Just utilize them. (Regarding offense: we had the lead in all our losses...if we do what do best and run the ball in the second half versus throw it for some inexplicable reason we win at least some of our losses. Our offense was good enough to get ahead. Just not smart enough to take some time off the clock at minimum in the second half or not turn it over by passing..)
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I'm not talking about the system, I'm talking about talent. The talent at QB, WR, and the OL has been bad for years now. At least Fleck brought in a few guys to give us hope at those positions, but they'll be true Freshman. Like I said earlier there are FCS programs with more offensive talent right now including the one 60 miles north of me.

On top of that just because we got back Winfield and Shenault - who was unimpressive when he played last year, people act like we are going to be fine at DB. They're still losing Hardin who would've started next year, Buford who would also likely start next year, and Dior, which is a huge blow to the young depth and talent. Who are we replacing them with? More Freshman.

People need to stop overrating the roster and pretending like we have these great JRs and SRs ready to step into all the positions we lost players from. Plenty of other schools have that luxury, the Gophers don't. There will be a lot of Freshman and Sophomores starting the next two seasons.
 

GopherHomer said:
There's a lot of honesty/truth in this post and I am not going to attack you...but I think the disconnect is in what we should expect in 2017. People love to rip on Leidner, but he was one of the more prolific QBs in our program's history so he will have to be replaced. I'm not ready to proclaim what we SHOULD do in 2017 but the fact remains that we made a coaching change and the benefits of said change may not manifest itself in year one - but that doesn't necessarily mean the change wasn't the right choice.
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Thank you. You did a good job of articulating my own thoughts.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
I'm not talking about the system, I'm talking about talent. The talent at QB, WR, and the OL has been bad for years now. At least Fleck brought in a few guys to give us hope at those positions, but they'll be true Freshman. Like I said earlier there are FCS programs with more offensive talent right now including the one 60 miles north of me.

On top of that just because we got back Winfield and Shenault - who was unimpressive when he played last year, people act like we are going to be fine at DB. They're still losing Hardin who would've started next year, Buford who would also likely start next year, and Dior, which is a huge blow to the young depth and talent. Who are we replacing them with? More Freshman.

People need to stop overrating the roster and pretending like we have these great JRs and SRs ready to step into all the positions we lost players from. Plenty of other schools have that luxury, the Gophers don't. There will be a lot of Freshman and Sophomores starting the next two seasons.
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Claeys underperformed with the great roster he had, and now Fleck will be lucky to go .500 with the garbage roster Claeys handed him. And that makes perfect sense to you. Dear Lord.
 

I think it is silly to put expectations on next year until we know what we are going to get from the QB position. Assuming the QB play is equal to or better than what we got from Mitch then it would seem very reasonable to expect a minimum of 6 wins and bowl eligibility in year one.

But in my mind, I don't feel comfortable trying to project anything with a massive unknown sitting at the most important position on the field.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Give it up. Your take is horrible and nonsensical.
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So you think 5 wins is too much or too few?

The question was minimum threshold, and actually working in organizations that needed a culture change, it's not something than happens overnight. Especially in a 4 year program with athletes who were recruited by the old culture.

Some of you really don't understand this culture change. You all seem to think that everything was grand as if the winning percentage related to how good the culture was.

PJ Fleck is here to change culture first. After he does that, wins might become a side-product.
But there is no way we could keep going forward ignoring the culture we had where players were often injured, we led the league in targeting calls, and off the field we had a very visible scandal.

Culture change first.
If we win 5 games I'll be really happy, but this culture change will take years. That's why Fleck got a multi-year contract.
If changing culture was easy, they would have kept Claeys and tried to change it in some other manner.

Many of you who disagree with me seem to only want to talk about wins and losses.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I think it is silly to put expectations on next year until we know what we are going to get from the QB position. Assuming the QB play is equal to or better than what we got from Mitch then it would seem very reasonable to expect a minimum of 6 wins and bowl eligibility in year one.

But in my mind, I don't feel comfortable trying to project anything with a massive unknown sitting at the most important position on the field.
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This is very true.
It looks like the PJ Fleck haters just want people to commit to a number so the PJ Fleck haters can all complain in fall.
Here we are in February, and they are getting worked up because several of us are preaching patience.
 



dpodoll68 said:
Claeys underperformed with the great roster he had, and now Fleck will be lucky to go .500 with the garbage roster Claeys handed him. And that makes perfect sense to you. Dear Lord.
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Yeah it's not like we lose any good SRs off of last year's team, or the schedule doesn't get tougher or anything. Dear Lord.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Yeah it's not like we lose any good SRs off of last year's team, or the schedule doesn't get tougher or anything. Dear Lord.
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We didn't lose that many good SRs.

Every year, teams lose SRs, we lost a lot less than most teams. I have news for you, next year, we are going to lose some seniors too.

Our schedule got a little tougher.

But keep hedging your bet.
 

37score said:
So you think 5 wins is too much or too few?

The question was minimum threshold, and actually working in organizations that needed a culture change, it's not something than happens overnight. Especially in a 4 year program with athletes who were recruited by the old culture.

Some of you really don't understand this culture change. You all seem to think that everything was grand as if the winning percentage related to how good the culture was.

PJ Fleck is here to change culture first. After he does that, wins might become a side-product.
But there is no way we could keep going forward ignoring the culture we had where players were often injured, we led the league in targeting calls, and off the field we had a very visible scandal.

Culture change first.
If we win 5 games I'll be really happy, but this culture change will take years. That's why Fleck got a multi-year contract.
If changing culture was easy, they would have kept Claeys and tried to change it in some other manner.

Many of you who disagree with me seem to only want to talk about wins and losses.
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I hear the term "culture change" tossed around, but Panama Jack Fleck has never actually defined the term and what cultural changes are required. Like the term "elite" or "row the boat" it seems to be a general catch phrase to excite people about an undefined and undetermined change. Until these terms can be subtantively defined they are mere words of empty bravado.

UMN has a good core of talented players who just won 9 games. Panama Jack has a lot of good stuff to work with.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
We didn't lose that many good SRs.

Every year, teams lose SRs, we lost a lot less than most teams. I have news for you, next year, we are going to lose some seniors too.

Our schedule got a little tougher.

But keep hedging your bet.
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Like I said in my post, who are we replacing most of the SRs with especially on offense? The other good teams in the B1G have upperclassmen or highly talented recruits that have at least been in the system a year or two.

We're likely replacing a 4 year starter at QB with a former walk-on or a true Freshman. Drew Wolitarsky had the most receiving yards since Decker, who are we replacing him with? Still or Carter neither of whom have looked very good and weren't good enough to get other P5 offers out of high school? Tyler Johnson who had 6 catches during the B1G season last year? A true Freshman? Then there's the O-line with all of the spring injuries. They lose their best 2 starters off of a bad O-line last year and replace them with who? Claeys was trying to bring in another JUCO for a reason and he didn't have any P5 offers outside of MN.

Based on S&P last year's offense was the worst of the entire Kill/Claeys era. Even 1 spot lower than year one with Brewster's recruits. With what's coming back I don't see how that doesn't get worse before it gets better.
 

You people realize that Maryland is a sleeping giant. They have the founder of Under Armor and his command that you win. Much like Phil Knght at Oregon. Probably explains their high recruiting class this year. His word " buy what you need, send the bill to me". From airplanes to recruiting expenses, nothing is to much. So I'm not ready to give that automatic win. Sure hope we win, but I would call it a toss up game.
 

My threshold for a successful season is playing for the B1G Western Division Championship in the last game of the regular season. Every year. Winning it about every other year or three... that's the threshold. Winning Jan 1 bowls and overall B1G championships is the gravy.
 

Jack jones said:
You people realize that Maryland is a sleeping giant. They have the founder of Under Armor and his command that you win. Much like Phil Knght at Oregon. Probably explains their high recruiting class this year. His word " buy what you need, send the bill to me". From airplanes to recruiting expenses, nothing is to much. So I'm not ready to give that automatic win. Sure hope we win, but I would call it a toss up game.
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Absolutely right. And the Gophers get them for the next 3 years. Also, Mich St is still a very competitive program that had one bad year, but could be declining.
The key to a favorable crossover schedule is having Rutgers and Indiana being on the schedule. Those 2 programs have a tough hill to climb. Unfortunately, the Gophers only get one of them a year, but so do Iowa and Wisconsin.
 

Few things in sports are tougher to predict than the record of a team with a new coach. Throw on top of that serious questions at every offensive position besides RB and it's even tougher. It wouldn't surprise me if we take a step back record wise next year as it's very common with a coaching change. But that doesn't mean the program took a step back.
 

37score said:
So you think 5 wins is too much or too few?

The question was minimum threshold, and actually working in organizations that needed a culture change, it's not something than happens overnight. Especially in a 4 year program with athletes who were recruited by the old culture.

Some of you really don't understand this culture change. You all seem to think that everything was grand as if the winning percentage related to how good the culture was.

PJ Fleck is here to change culture first. After he does that, wins might become a side-product.
But there is no way we could keep going forward ignoring the culture we had where players were often injured, we led the league in targeting calls, and off the field we had a very visible scandal.

Culture change first.
If we win 5 games I'll be really happy, but this culture change will take years. That's why Fleck got a multi-year contract.
If changing culture was easy, they would have kept Claeys and tried to change it in some other manner.

Many of you who disagree with me seem to only want to talk about wins and losses.
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Your schtick is lame and transparent. You're trying to lower expectations so that when Fleck wins 7-9 games (as should be the expectation) you can come back here crowing after the season (assuming that you haven't been banned by then, which is doubtful) that he's some sort of miracle worker. There was a reason he held out for this job over Purdue. He knew that he was walking into a good situation where he could come in and win right away.

Your nonsense gobbledygook about "culture change" isn't even worth addressing. It's verbal diarrhea devoid of meaning and based in fantasy.
 


beatles said:
Few things in sports are tougher to predict than the record of a team with a new coach. Throw on top of that serious questions at every offensive position besides RB and it's even tougher. It wouldn't surprise me if we take a step back record wise next year as it's very common with a coaching change. But that doesn't mean the program took a step back.
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27 out of 62 new coaches in the last 3 years improved the record.
 

PMWinSTP said:
I heard PJ say B1G title, Rosebowl, Natty...
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He didn't say that was happening in 2017.

Surprised by the number of sourpusses here - almost to the point of hoping Fleck falls on his face. Why would a Gophers fan want that?

Sense I have is the misconduct business had a lot less to do with TC being let go than is widely believed, that Admin thought that, long term, the program was headed for decline if TC stayed. Admin clearly wanted to go get someone like Fleck, suspect they didn't think they'd have a shot if they waited another year.

I suspect they were expecting a loss to Washington State - certainly would have been easier to "sell" had that happened - but when it didn't, they decided to go ahead with the plan regardless.

Gophers have a new guy who wants to be there and sell the program. He IS NOT BREWSTER - he's been a head coach, and been successful - so enough of that.

Don't like the rah rah? Who cares, if the kids do?

Fleck is the coach. He deserves an honest chance - which includes recognition that he's not perfect and there will be bumps.


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dpodoll68 said:
Your schtick is lame and transparent. You're trying to lower expectations so that when Fleck wins 7-9 games (as should be the expectation) you can come back here crowing after the season (assuming that you haven't been banned by then, which is doubtful) that he's some sort of miracle worker. There was a reason he held out for this job over Purdue. He knew that he was walking into a good situation where he could come in and win right away.

Your nonsense gobbledygook about "culture change" isn't even worth addressing. It's verbal diarrhea devoid of meaning and based in fantasy.
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Admins, can we ban this guy?

I have repeatedly tried to clarify my reasoning, and he has called me lame. He's also called what I've written gobbledygook instead of actually discussing real facts and actual on-goings which negatively affect the culture at the U. Also, he's throwing terms around like verbal diarrhea, again without contesting any fact based evidence.

This is breaking the terms and conditions since he is not responding in a clear manner devoid of insults and it's affecting the culture of this board in a negative way (or could long term).

I don't want to be spamming the board with repeated post after repeated post explaining how hard it is to change culture and win 5 or more games with a first year QB and all the other changes PJ has to put up with.
 

BradDad said:
He didn't say that was happening in 2017.

Surprised by the number of sourpusses here - almost to the point of hoping Fleck falls on his face. Why would a Gophers fan want that?

Sense I have is the misconduct business had a lot less to do with TC being let go than is widely believed, that Admin thought that, long term, the program was headed for decline if TC stayed. Admin clearly wanted to go get someone like Fleck, suspect they didn't think they'd have a shot if they waited another year.

I suspect they were expecting a loss to Washington State - certainly would have been easier to "sell" had that happened - but when it didn't, they decided to go ahead with the plan regardless.

Gophers have a new guy who wants to be there and sell the program. He IS NOT BREWSTER - he's been a head coach, and been successful - so enough of that.

Don't like the rah rah? Who cares, if the kids do?

Fleck is the coach. He deserves an honest chance - which includes recognition that he's not perfect and there will be bumps.


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Agree with all of this except the part where you say some folks on here want him to fail. I am yet to see anyone say anything like that. The debate seems more about how much should be expected when.


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We don't know who the QB is.

We got holes and ? at some serious spots.

I can't make the call now.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
27 out of 62 new coaches in the last 3 years improved the record.
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Exactly. Most don't improve the record in their first season. Western Michigan had a worse record in Flecks first year. I have no idea what to expect next season.
 

This is not a rebuilding project like most coaching changes. Let's have some optimism here. I think 8 wins is in play. I'm a lifetime Minnesotan but sometimes we need more huztpah

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