SOUND OFF! Post-Game Thread: Gophers Lose Heartbreaker to Hawkeyes, Again, Fleck Remains Winless vs Iowa.

[Gophers_4life]

I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, mind you.


We should've won the game on a Mo rushing touchdown, the series before. And then you and I and everyone else would be talking about locations for Fleck's new statue and how KC should be writing a book on how to call football games.

You know how fickle it is on the internet.

 

[Dakota2]

I get what you're saying, but IMO this criticism would hold more water had we not run for 312 yards, and 6.2 per carry.

The criticism would hold less water if we had scored more than 10 points while running 312 yards.

 

[Panthadad2]

The criticism would hold less water if we had scored more than 10 points while running 312 yards.

It seems almost impossible to not score at least three touchdowns, minimum, with 312 yards rushing and 399 total yards. Add 66 yards in kick returns, and that's 10 points on 465 all-purpose yards. Impossible...except, you know, the Gophers.

 

[Gophers1992]

The criticism would hold less water if we had scored more than 10 points while running 312 yards.

Which is largely a result of a red zone fumble, red zone missed FG, an interception inside the 40, and some Iowa punts that put us inside our own 5. I just don't know if I can look at the numbers and buy into the idea that we ran the ball too much.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Which is largely a result of a red zone fumble, red zone missed FG, an interception inside the 40, and some Iowa punts that put us inside our own 5. I just don't know if I can look at the numbers and buy into the idea that we ran the ball too much.

If Mo doesn't fumble and instead scores a TD on that drive, and we win 17-10 .... then no one cares how many times we ran it in the 4th quarter.

All the same, I just don't know how you can have the success from passing on the earlier drive and then never go back to that.


They have to do that vs Wisconsin.

 

[60's Guy]

Morgan doesn't throw the ball any better than Athan did.

The only question is if it would've tried to throw it to someone other than Brockington. Fleck says that choice was the wrong choice (I believe he said that or hinted at it). Maybe Morgan makes a "better" choice. Maybe it's a first down, maybe a drop, maybe a bad pass, who knows.

Okay, I haven’t seen a replay but my memory says the receiver had the defender on his back. Meet the ball, to prevent the defender from deflecting it. Make pass interference more obvious. To me it wasn’t a QB issue but a receiver problem. WR was open. Or recruit bigger receivers or put bigger bodies in a short route with traffic.

 

[Wally]

We need a much better punter and punt defense if we are going to play this way next year.

Where do you findca punter like Il. That guy is sick.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

The Gophers put up a great effort against the Hawkeyes and easily could have won. The Hawkeyes essentially snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Again. We beat the snot out of Iowa statistically (see below), but lost because: (1) we fell behind early; (2) we allowed a very mediocre QB to go 15-24, for 221 yards, with no INTs and no Sacks, throwing all day to wide open TEs; (3) we lost the turnover battle; and (4) we dramatically lost the field position game (through great Iowa punting).

I think the frustration I feel with the outcome of this game is actually the aggregation of frustration I feel with PJ's 6-year history against the Hawkeyes. I am left with the distinct feeling that either Kirk Ferentz has made a very successful deal with the Devil, or that we are simply getting outcoached by Iowa. One game doesn't make me feel this way; six games do.

In PJ's tenure, Iowa has held the statistical advantage in three games: in 2017, which Iowa won 17-10, Iowa out-gained us by only 315-281 yards, but jumped on us early, leading 7-0 after the 1st Q. In 2018, which Iowa won 48-31, Iowa out-gained us 420-320 yards, led 14-7 after the 1st Q, and won TOP 33:17 to 26:43. In 2020, which Iowa won 35-7, Iowa out-gained us by only 346-312 yards, led 7-0 after the 1st Q, and LOST TOP 23:50 to 36:10. So, when Iowa wins the statistical battle, even just slightly, it not only wins the game, it sometimes kicks our ass on the scoreboard.

Conversely, Minnesota has held the statistical advantage (often a HUGE advantage) in three games: In 2019, which Iowa won 23-19, we out-gained Iowa by a massive 431-290 yards, and we won TOP 32:20 to 27:40; Iowa did start early, though, going up 13-0 at the end of the 1st Q. In 2021, which Iowa won 27-22, we again out-gained Iowa by a massive 409-277 yards and totally dominated TOP 40:02 to 19:58; and the score was tied 3-3 at the end of the 1st Q (and we led 13-10 at the half). In 2022, this year, we yet again out-gained Iowa substantially, 399 to 280 yards, and dominated TOP 35:13 to 24:47; Iowa, as usual, did start early, going up 10-0 at the end of the 1st Q. So, even when Minnesota absolutely dominates statistically, Iowa still wins (though it doesn't kick our ass)--and Iowa often manages to score early while holding us scoreless in these games.

This dichotomy is incredibly frustrating for me. Kirk F wins handily when he enjoys a modest statistical advantage; he also wins, though not as handily, when the Gophers enjoy a huge statistical advantage. It isn't granular, like one bad/good play here or there. It is an entire body of work over six seasons. Better coaching? Deal with the Devil? The Minnesota sports curse?

 

[Panthadad2]

The Gophers put up a great effort against the Hawkeyes and easily could have won. The Hawkeyes essentially snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Again. We beat the snot out of Iowa statistically (see below), but lost because: (1) we fell behind early; (2) we allowed a very mediocre QB to go 15-24, for 221 yards, with no INTs and no Sacks, throwing all day to wide open TEs; (3) we lost the turnover battle; and (4) we dramatically lost the field position game (through great Iowa punting).

I think the frustration I feel with the outcome of this game is actually the aggregation of frustration I feel with PJ's 6-year history against the Hawkeyes. I am left with the distinct feeling that either Kirk Ferentz has made a very successful deal with the Devil, or that we are simply getting outcoached by Iowa. One game doesn't make me feel this way; six games do.

In PJ's tenure, Iowa has held the statistical advantage in three games: in 2017, which Iowa won 17-10, Iowa out-gained us by only 315-281 yards, but jumped on us early, leading 7-0 after the 1st Q. In 2018, which Iowa won 48-31, Iowa out-gained us 420-320 yards, led 14-7 after the 1st Q, and won TOP 33:17 to 26:43. In 2020, which Iowa won 35-7, Iowa out-gained us by only 346-312 yards, led 7-0 after the 1st Q, and LOST TOP 23:50 to 36:10. So, when Iowa wins the statistical battle, even just slightly, it not only wins the game, it sometimes kicks our ass on the scoreboard.

Conversely, Minnesota has held the statistical advantage (often a HUGE advantage) in three games as well: In 2019, which Iowa won 23-19, we out-gained Iowa by a massive 431-290 yards, and we won TOP 32:20 to 27:40; Iowa did start early, though, going up 13-0 at the end of the 1st Q. In 2021, which Iowa won 27-22, we again out-gained Iowa by a massive 409-277 yards and totally dominated TOP 40:02 to 19-20; and the score was tied 3-3 at the end of the 1st Q (and we led 13-10 at the half). In 2022, we again out-gained Iowa substantially, 399 to 280 yards, and dominated TOP 35:13 to 24:47; Iowa, as usual, did start early, going up 10-0 at the end of the 1st Q. So, even when Minnesota absolutely dominates statistically in yards and TOP, Iowa still wins (though it doesn't kick our ass)--and Iowa often manages to score early while holding us scoreless.

This dichotomy is incredibly frustrating for me. Kirk F wins handily when he enjoys a modest statistical advantage; he also wins, though not as handily, when the Gophers enjoy a huge statistical advantage. It isn't granular, like one bad/good play here or there. It is an entire body of work over six seasons. Better coaching? Deal with the Devil? The Minnesota sports curse?

It is coaching. PJ plays Iowa tight as hell with clinched butt cheeks. It permeates every decision and likely spreads to the players. He’s had no such issues with Wisconsin, luckily.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Okay, I haven’t seen a replay but my memory says the receiver had the defender on his back. Meet the ball, to prevent the defender from deflecting it. Make pass interference more obvious. To me it wasn’t a QB issue but a receiver problem. WR was open. Or recruit bigger receivers or put bigger bodies in a short route with traffic.

Sure, this too.

Maybe the WR was shocked that the ball was coming to him, knowing it wasn't "supposed" to? I can make up all kinds of things.

 

[Gophers_4life]

The Gophers put up a great effort against the Hawkeyes and easily could have won. The Hawkeyes essentially snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Again. We beat the snot out of Iowa statistically (see below), but lost because: (1) we fell behind early; (2) we allowed a very mediocre QB to go 15-24, for 221 yards, with no INTs and no Sacks, throwing all day to wide open TEs; (3) we lost the turnover battle; and (4) we dramatically lost the field position game (through great Iowa punting).

I think the frustration I feel with the outcome of this game is actually the aggregation of frustration I feel with PJ's 6-year history against the Hawkeyes. I am left with the distinct feeling that either Kirk Ferentz has made a very successful deal with the Devil, or that we are simply getting outcoached by Iowa. One game doesn't make me feel this way; six games do.

In PJ's tenure, Iowa has held the statistical advantage in three games: in 2017, which Iowa won 17-10, Iowa out-gained us by only 315-281 yards, but jumped on us early, leading 7-0 after the 1st Q. In 2018, which Iowa won 48-31, Iowa out-gained us 420-320 yards, led 14-7 after the 1st Q, and won TOP 33:17 to 26:43. In 2020, which Iowa won 35-7, Iowa out-gained us by only 346-312 yards, led 7-0 after the 1st Q, and LOST TOP 23:50 to 36:10. So, when Iowa wins the statistical battle, even just slightly, it not only wins the game, it sometimes kicks our ass on the scoreboard.

Conversely, Minnesota has held the statistical advantage (often a HUGE advantage) in three games: In 2019, which Iowa won 23-19, we out-gained Iowa by a massive 431-290 yards, and we won TOP 32:20 to 27:40; Iowa did start early, though, going up 13-0 at the end of the 1st Q. In 2021, which Iowa won 27-22, we again out-gained Iowa by a massive 409-277 yards and totally dominated TOP 40:02 to 19:58; and the score was tied 3-3 at the end of the 1st Q (and we led 13-10 at the half). In 2022, this year, we yet again out-gained Iowa substantially, 399 to 280 yards, and dominated TOP 35:13 to 24:47; Iowa, as usual, did start early, going up 10-0 at the end of the 1st Q. So, even when Minnesota absolutely dominates statistically, Iowa still wins (though it doesn't kick our ass)--and Iowa often manages to score early while holding us scoreless in these games.

This dichotomy is incredibly frustrating for me. Kirk F wins handily when he enjoys a modest statistical advantage; he also wins, though not as handily, when the Gophers enjoy a huge statistical advantage. It isn't granular, like one bad/good play here or there. It is an entire body of work over six seasons. Better coaching? Deal with the Devil? The Minnesota sports curse?

Even with the two turnovers on offense, the game came down to two massive plays by their offense.

The TE screen, setup up their early TD.
The TE wide open in the middle of the field right after their int run back.


Everything else, for the most part, we played outstanding on defense, within reason. Those two plays sunk it.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

Even with the two turnovers on offense, the game came down to two massive plays by their offense.

The TE screen, setup up their early TD.
The TE wide open in the middle of the field right after their int run back.


Everything else, for the most part, we played outstanding on defense, within reason. Those two plays sunk it.

I agree that those two creative, unexpected plays (something the Gophers are not allowed to do!) were critical to sinking us ... but only because our offense accomplished the near impossible: racking up 409 yards yet scoring only 10 points. In a PJ-style "shortened" game, with a limited numbers of drives for both teams, to be able to pile up 409 yards of offense and score only ten points is a Herculean non-achievement. Those two TE plays were huge, I agree, but they would have been rendered totally meaningless if we had harvested even the bare minimum points one would expect from the 399 yards of offense we fought and scrapped for. To give you some context, in the six Iowa games during PJ's tenure, Iowa has managed to gain over 400 yards only once: 420 yards in 2018. In that game, Iowa put 48 points on the board.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I agree that those two creative, unexpected plays (something the Gophers are not allowed to do!) were critical to sinking us ... but only because our offense accomplished the near impossible: racking up 409 yards yet scoring only 10 points. In a PJ-style "shortened" game, with a limited numbers of drives for both teams, to be able to pile up 409 yards of offense and score only ten points is a Herculean non-achievement. Those two TE plays were huge, I agree, but they would have been rendered totally meaningless if we had harvested even the bare minimum of points one would expect from the 409 yards of offense we fought and scrapped for.

There wasn't anything creative about the 2nd one. Just a simple, weak play-action, both our LBs sucked right up, and the TE barely ran a route, just went right behind them and Petras lofted the ball into the middle of the camp fire with everyone on the outside watching.

 

[Gophers_4life]

The play starts at 16:31 here:


Looking again now .... it was actually Howden more than anyone who screwed it. Ran all the way up from safety spot thinking he was going to smash the run .... TE went right by him.


Damn. We should've just let them score on the next play. Still have two TO left and maybe minute and a half to try to make something happen.

 

[Go Gophs]

Okay, I haven’t seen a replay but my memory says the receiver had the defender on his back. Meet the ball, to prevent the defender from deflecting it. Make pass interference more obvious. To me it wasn’t a QB issue but a receiver problem. WR was open. Or recruit bigger receivers or put bigger bodies in a short route with traffic.

Flat out run something other than RPO. It's not hard to squat the slant when you know they will never throw the ball over the top outside. Bad play call.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

There wasn't anything creative about the 2nd one. Just a simple, weak play-action, both our LBs sucked right up, and the TE barely ran a route, just went right behind them and Petras lofted the ball into the middle of the camp fire with everyone on the outside watching.

"Creative" in that the play was designed to exploit a clear, known weakness in the Gophers' defensive scheme. We often leave TEs open to roam totally uncovered in the middle zone. Some teams have exploited that weakness for explosive plays.

Gophers this year, spoiled by Mo, often just run the same play time after time, regardless of the defensive set. We scheme to utilize our great strength--Mo and and good OL--but seem to have given up on scheming to exploit the other team's defensive weaknesses. It was great to see Mo crack off 5 yards and 7 yards and the occasional 11 or 15 yards while running totally expected plays into the strength of Iowa's defense. It was awesome, actually. But an offense gets most explosive plays--the plays that win you ball games--mainly by attacking the other team's defensive weakness(es). We gained 399 hard-fought yards with very few explosive plays; Iowa gained only 280 yard but had 5 explosive plays.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Hey Mods, since we now allow swearing and sexual comments on other poster’s wives, would you please reinstate GopherWarrior?

I too am surprised that multiple posts from WriterGoph in this thread haven't gotten a ban yet. But then you have to remember, that poster and Nadine line up beautifully in terms of politics. When that happens, it's a guarantee you won't get banned.

However, if you aren't aligned with Nadine, then even a modest "oh crap" and you're banned for life, even if it's your first "offense".

Carry on.

 

[BilldGopher]

To the tune of Gordon Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"...

"The Wreck of PJ Fleck" [care of jamesvanderwulf at Hawkeye Report]...

The legend lives on from Evy and Hayden on down
Of the Big Ten team called the Hawkeyes.
The defense it's said, never gives up the lead
When the skies of November turn gloomy.
The Hawks are the pride of the western side
Of the river they call the Big Muddy.
The team bus headed north, Floyd on the line
Dinkytown was the Hawkeye destination.

Looking for a fourth win in a row
After the season started slow.
Northwestern and Purdue both took beatings
The third straight win, saw Wisconsin cave in.
As big wins go, it was bigger than most
A testament to Phil Parker's stout defense.
The wind through the goalposts made a tattle tale sound
As a November gale howled in from the northwest.

The Hawk swarm took the field as the Gopher fans all squealed
Who hates Iowa? We hate Iowa...Who hates Iowa? We hate Iowa...
But every Hawkeye knew, and the good captain did too
T'was the Hawks of November come stealin'
With Spencer to LaPorta, the Hawks owned the first quarter
A ten to nothing lead soon did follow.
But Mo Ibrahim and his crew were impressive too
They ran at will between the twenties.

But when the Red Zone came, their main hatchway gave in
And the defense then caused big Mo to fumble.
Following a Hawkeye three and out, and short Taylor punt'
The Gophers again were a knockin'.
It was then when captains Moss and Campbell kicked in,
A tip and a catch and Jack was off to the races.
But the zebra said no, you touched the line with a toe.
The replays showed he was mistaken.

Does anyone know where the replay officials go
When the referee blows such an obvious call?
As faux pas go it was bigger than most
And cost the Hawkeyes a touchdown.
But Brian shrugged it off and went for the throat
With a pass to the tight end down the middle.
Four plays later as the clock ran down
Came a Drew Stevens winning field goal.

With 28 seconds to go and no time outs left
Came the wreck of PJ Fleck and the Gophers.
The Hawkeyes roll, winning eight in a row
And fourteen straight in November.
Michigan steams Illini dreams,
On a last second field goal.
The bus headed home, honked fourteen times
For every big win in November.

The Bugeaters come in next with an interim coach
Hell, no-one even knows his name.
But it's Shawn Eichorst, whose name we'll never forget
" We had to evaluate where Iowa was as a program".
But Shawn and Bo are gone, Riley and Frosty gone too,
Yet the good Captain and crew are still dealin'...
The legend lives on from Evy and Hayden on down
Of the Big Ten team called the Hawkeyes.

The Hawkeyes it is said never give up the lead
When the winds of November come howlin'...

 

[Gophers_4life]

I too am surprised that multiple posts from WriterGoph in this thread haven't gotten a ban yet. But then you have to remember, that poster and Nadine line up beautifully in terms of politics. When that happens, it's a guarantee you won't get banned.

However, if you aren't aligned with Nadine, then even a modest "oh crap" and you're banned for life, even if it's your first "offense".

Carry on.

I really don't think Nadine has much of anything to do with the daily operation of GH.com 's message board. I think she is much more on the marketing side and the news/journalism side of the website.

The other owner, whom I suspect is a frequent and very valuable poster here, I believe is the head of the message board and the technical ops of the overall site. Not going to say which poster I think that is, but to me it is blatantly obvious.

Even then, I don't think that guy necessarily dictates who should get banned, which posts should get moderated, etc.

I'm pretty sure they pay people (or maybe it's some service that does multiple message boards, etc.) to be moderators, and those folks are mainly just looking for really hardcore inappropriate or illegal stuff and/or responding to when people directly message/report stuff.

Educated guess.