Souhan: The wait for Evans and Christie could feel long as a Minnesota winter, but Johnson should be viewed similarly. He was hired to recruit.

[MNJay]

Been told by multiple posters now to just check out until 2024-25 if I want good basketball. Even recommended other teams to watch in the interim. Almost like we're not on a GOPHER basketball message board. They've assured me though it will be worth the wait. Nothing to worry about, just grab a drink and trust the process. What could go wrong?

Doesn t matter if we lose 33 straight big ten regular season games. As long as kids are learning how to play basketball together.

What you don't understand is...this is college basketball.

And what you also don't understand is...we have a new, young, first-time coach who inherited a bare cupboard in a losing program.

Which means it's very unlikely that we will win big immediately. Relying on new very-good upperclassmen transfers every year is not the route were going. And we're not counting on bringing in multiple high-5-stars who are ready to win big immediately.

We're taking a ground up approach. Start with multiple good recruits...and give them playing-time. Then add even higher-rated recruits the next year...and give them playing-time. Then keep building.

Progress will be visible. But it won't be by the won-loss record of the very first Big Ten games.

 

[Holy Man]

What you don't understand is...this is college basketball.

And what you also don't understand is...we have a new, young, first-time coach who inherited a bare cupboard in a losing program.

Which means it's very unlikely that we will win big immediately. Relying on new very-good upperclassmen transfers every year is not the route were going. And we're not counting on bringing in multiple high-5-stars who are ready to win big immediately.

We're taking a ground up approach. Start with multiple good recruits...and give them playing-time. Then add even higher-rated recruits the next year...and give them playing-time. Then keep building.

Progress will be visible. But it won't be by the won-loss record of the very first Big Ten games.

Point of clarification: What is your definition of “winning big?” You have used that term in explaining the strategy of the staff, but it hasn’t been defined. That would help. I don’t think anyone is demanding “winning big” right now, but many of us are frustrated by no apparent improvement on the floor. And clearly many disagree (including me) on the possibility of success in the developmental model you describe in this era . I hope you are right and we aren’t. But clarification of terms would help in the discussion.

 

[GopherBlood777]

My heart pumps camel water for you.

You're just trolling now. How you could get off on the frustration of other Gopher fans is astounding. Apathy has set in so far we're not allowed to have on court expectations anymore. Im not even expecting wins, just hoping the game isn't over 10 mins after tip.

 

[MNJay]

Point of clarification: What is your definition of “winning big?” You have used that term in explaining the strategy of the staff, but it hasn’t been defined. That would help. I don’t think anyone is demanding “winning big” right now, but many of us are frustrated by no apparent improvement on the floor. And clearly many disagree (including me) on the possibility of success in the developmental model you describe in this era . I hope you are right and we aren’t. But clarification of terms would help in the discussion.

I'm hoping for the Clem Haskins model. 2-16 and 4-14 in conference play...but when our core were juniors, we made the Sweet-16. And then Final-8 (robbed of the Final Four).

Maybe this developmental model won't work. Maybe our good young players won't develop or will transfer...or will get suspended by our administration. Sure I'd have liked to have hired Musselman for instant multiple 5-star recruits.

But this developmental model is our only choice now. And so far, it looks to be on track...as in our freshmen having some 10 point games already and good recruits on the way.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Been told by multiple posters now to just check out until 2024-25 if I want good basketball. Even recommended other teams to watch in the interim. Almost like we're not on a GOPHER basketball message board. They've assured me though it will be worth the wait. Nothing to worry about, just grab a drink and trust the process. What could go wrong?

You're starting to get it! It's so simple

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I don't care how many forwards and centers we have with potential, basketball is won with guards! Quick and fast with good handles, tenacity, smarts, and shooting. Cooper is savvy and I'm happy we have him. But we will not be an upper big ten team without some really quick guards especially on defense.

Give me Al Nolan, Andre Hollins, Westbrook, Dre most of the top teams have multiple guards with these skills.

We try and play long and slow 6-6/6-7 guys at the 2 when the rest of the world is playing small and quick!. Watch I'll, mich st, penn st, Ohio st, mich, Ind.

Purdue, Iowa, Wisconsin wins without too many of these guards, but there is much less room for error. It takes precision fundamentals, high IQ, and experience.

I was assured that basketball is positionless and anyone can play guard. Even 6'10" Ihnen!

 

[WindyCityGopher]

A kid from my son’s high school went off for 12-14 from 3 for 36 points against Rolling Meadows last night. Reports are Cam was guarding him most of the game, so it looks like he’ll fit in with the current defensive identity of the Gophers.

 

[golfing18now]

Per Souhan:

As with Lindsay Whalen and the women's program, when you hire an inexperienced coach primarily because of their potential recruiting prowess, you have no choice but to wait for results.

Whalen is in her fifth season, and the talent has arrived. She's starting four freshmen and a sophomore, including a future star in Mara Braun. Whalen is making obvious progress.

The wait for Evans and Christie could feel long as a Minnesota winter, but Johnson should be viewed similarly. He was hired to recruit, and his best recruits will arrive next season.

Until Evans and Christie arrive, fans may find themselves glancing at their watches, or calendars, during games.

Gophers' bad night in loss to Michigan sets an ominous tone early in the season

Gophers will have to wait until next season to be competitive in the Big Ten when two highly touted recruits arrive.

m.startribune.com

Go Gophers!!

I've always found this to be a bizarre justification for hiring Johnson. We seem to forget he was the coach responsible for recruiting Minnesota kids for five of the eight years under Pitino's tenure. One of the biggest complaints about the Pitino tenure was his inability to recruit Minnesota kids. (not my complaint, but is cited often). So we doubled down and hired somebody off that staff? Or did he become a master recruiter at Xavier?

I'm not complaining about his recruiting to date as the head coach. You certainly have to pull in talent to have a chance. It should be noted, however, we all tend to add an extra star to Minnesota kids -- maybe they will work out. Evans/Christie look like good recruits. But we also shouldn't forget that many big ten schools pull in these types of recruits every year. Then it becomes a question of whether or not he can coach. That's my bigger concern right now.

Meanwhile Penn State beat Illinois by 15 on the road yesterday and we are hoping to win a couple games by the end of year three?

 

[MennoSota]

You're just trolling now. How you could get off on the frustration of other Gopher fans is astounding. Apathy has set in so far we're not allowed to have on court expectations anymore. Im not even expecting wins, just hoping the game isn't over 10 mins after tip.

"Lighten up Francis."

 

[bc2211]

I'm hoping for the Clem Haskins model. 2-16 and 4-14 in conference play...but when our core were juniors, we made the Sweet-16. And then Final-8 (robbed of the Final Four).

Maybe this developmental model won't work. Maybe our good young players won't develop or will transfer...or will get suspended by our administration. Sure I'd have liked to have hired Musselman for instant multiple 5-star recruits.

But this developmental model is our only choice now. And so far, it looks to be on track...as in our freshmen having some 10 point games already and good recruits on the way.

No one is saying the model can’t work (there are some valid opinions that the model is less likely to succeed in 2022 than in 1986, for numerous reasons), however, there is a fundamental disagreement that there is progress. He’s recruited, Payne looks the part, JOJ has been a surprise individually, but they are so far from being competitive for reasons unrelated to talent.

 

[MNJay]

No one is saying the model can’t work (there are some valid opinions that the model is less likely to succeed in 2022 than in 1986, for numerous reasons), however, there is a fundamental disagreement that there is progress. He’s recruited, Payne looks the part, JOJ has been a surprise individually, but they are so far from being competitive for reasons unrelated to talent.

Our freshmen shouldn't be expected to be competitive in their first 2 Big Ten games. We're not using the Duke/Kentucky model of having 3 of the Top-10 high school recruits.

We're using the Clem Haskins model.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Yeah, well, again, you're confused. Even though you did remember that I said Trevor Winter played in the NBA which seemed to send you into a hissy fit.

Here is my exact quote in the last thread you tried to take this horrific stance:
I don't give a sh!t about losing Robinson. I would have liked to have gotten Winter, but I'd prefer Betts and they are similar. I care more about losing Tre Holloman or Eli King than either of them. I'm ecstatic about Evans, Christie, Payne, and I think Carrington will be better than most people do. . .

I couldn't be any clearer, yet it was lost on you. Again. So blame your parents for being dumb or your mom for drinking, the English language doesn't allow me to be any more precise so nitwits like you can avoid confusion.

As to Ben's recruiting, he has recruited some good players. You responded to my post about how Ben should have used all his scholarships and added veterans this year. Again, your confusion on that topic is again due to your biological deficiencies.

If Ben is a good recruiter, we will have a good team next year. You have to look at it holistically (look it up). If we don't have the talent to compete in year 3, he didn't acquire enough talent.

I'm hoping for the Clem Haskins model. 2-16 and 4-14 in conference play...but when our core were juniors, we made the Sweet-16. And then Final-8 (robbed of the Final Four).

Maybe this developmental model won't work. Maybe our good young players won't develop or will transfer...or will get suspended by our administration. Sure I'd have liked to have hired Musselman for instant multiple 5-star recruits.

But this developmental model is our only choice now. And so far, it looks to be on track...as in our freshmen having some 10 point games already and good recruits on the way.

Basing future hope on our freshmen having a few 10 pt games is a tragic decision. PAYNE and JOJ are the only freshmen who would see minutes on other b10 teams…heck Henley is not a b10 player.

They score 10 points every now and then as we have no upper class talent / depth…especially at guard

 

[bc2211]

Our freshmen shouldn't be expected to be competitive in their first 2 Big Ten games. We're not using the Duke/Kentucky model of having 3 of the Top-10 high school recruits.

We're using the Clem Haskins model.

Yeah, you keep saying Clem Haskins. We all understand how the roster is constructed. Everyone is acknowledging that, while acknowledging that the product on the floor is substandard for the talent we do have, including two preseason all big ten watchlist upperclassmen.

 

[MNJay]

Basing future hope on our freshmen having a few 10 pt games is a tragic decision. PAYNE and JOJ are the only freshmen who would see minutes on other b10 teams…heck Henley is not a b10 player.

They score 10 points every now and then as we have no upper class talent / depth…especially at guard

We need to develop 5 good players. If you've already given-up on Henley & Carrington...well that means we hopefully still have 2. Assuming our 5-star develops next year...that's 3. Let's see what happens with Christie & Betts. And when all these guys are juniors & sophomores...then maybe add 1 transfer to get to 5 good players.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

We need to develop 5 good players. If you've already given-up on Henley & Carrington...well that means we hopefully still have 2. Assuming our 5-star develops next year...that's 3. Let's see what happens with Christie & Betts. And when all these guys are juniors & sophomores...then maybe add 1 transfer to get to 5 good players.

But then you run into roster construction issues again. Evans is the center (there is no argument to be had…most likely and should be immediate starter). Payne will be a backup since he can’t space the floor…the free throw against Michigan were he missed the rim to the left proved it…I would understand if he airballed it short, but missing left or right means you can’t shoot a lick)

Hopefully for Christie as a 2 guard.

 

[Duker]

I've always found this to be a bizarre justification for hiring Johnson. We seem to forget he was the coach responsible for recruiting Minnesota kids for five of the eight years under Pitino's tenure. One of the biggest complaints about the Pitino tenure was his inability to recruit Minnesota kids. (not my complaint, but is cited often). So we doubled down and hired somebody off that staff? Or did he become a master recruiter at Xavier?

I'm not complaining about his recruiting to date as the head coach. You certainly have to pull in talent to have a chance. It should be noted, however, we all tend to add an extra star to Minnesota kids -- maybe they will work out. Evans/Christie look like good recruits. But we also shouldn't forget that many big ten schools pull in these types of recruits every year. Then it becomes a question of whether or not he can coach. That's my bigger concern right now.

Meanwhile Penn State beat Illinois by 15 on the road yesterday and we are hoping to win a couple games by the end of year three?

Penn St. also has the oldest team ( including the 2 leading scores were grad transfers) in the country according to the announcers yesterday and Illinois was playing 4 freshman and a sophomore at times. Do we want just reset each year with grad transfers or build a team with young players.

 

[MNJay]

But then you run into roster construction issues again. Evans is the center (there is no argument to be had…most likely and should be immediate starter). Payne will be a backup since he can’t space the floor…the free throw against Michigan were he missed the rim to the left proved it…I would understand if he airballed it short, but missing left or right means you can’t shoot a lick)

Hopefully for Christie as a 2 guard.

It's bad enough to judge freshmen game by game. But now you're going shot by shot. I wouldn't relegate Payne to a backup role because of 1 badly missed free-throw.

Yes, you're right that even if we find 5 good players...we need ball-handling & shooting. But I'm willing to take my chances for now with developing what we have.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

It's bad enough to judge freshmen game by game. But now you're going shot by shot. I wouldn't relegate Payne to a backup role because of 1 badly missed free-throw.

Yes, you're right that even if we find 5 good players...we need ball-handling & shooting. But I'm willing to take my chances for now with developing what we have.

Payne has shown zero ability to hit any shot outside of 2 feet. Free throws are pretty much the only thing to go by (he’s shooting 44% on those by the way)

 

[Gopher Ally]

Johnson is Soupcans hire, he is nervous. His poison pen would not allow the Gophers to pursue Eric Musselman, which would have been a home run hire! That being said, Johnson has recruited well beyond expectations and perhaps we will be competitive again

 

[MNJay]

Payne has shown zero ability to hit any shot outside of 2 feet. Free throws are pretty much the only thing to go by (he’s shooting 44% on those by the way)

He's at 45% on free throws now after last night's game...yes, he needs to improve that. But he's at 73% on FG's, which is great.

 

[Go Gophs]

Evans is not going to be a savior next season. Yes, he is highly rated. That rating is all on potential. He was recruited by 7 schools. No Duke, Kentucky, Arkansas, Purdue etc Florida State would be the first school I'd think of for his game and they did recruit him. Kansas did but then it is San Diego St and the like.
He is not going to score and that is where we are weakest. He can intimidate people in the lane defensively and block shots. If we had a style of play on either end it'd be easier to project.
He and Payne can possibly be a high low tandem but probably don't fit together on the court at the same time...Payne can't shoot either.. I think you need shooters to pair with him and we don't have those. He is going to get out muscled a lot. Doesn't appear he is going to have a strong base but instead solely rely on length. The competition level in the video is miles below the Big Ten.
Evans video highlights this summer

So, we are banking on Christie being a high NBA draft pick in a year or two if these two guys are going to change our fortunes overnight.

Evans is a piece, a project...not the polished savior any time soon.

You are correct on this. Look at the offers. He wasn't highly recruited. Because he is as you a speak, a relative project. That said, it looks as though he will be a really good shot blocker right from the start, and hoping he is able to translate that into lots of rebounds also.

Either way, things won't start to turn around here until we get real guards. Right now it is 55 offensively and that's it. He also doesn't play much D himself. Hoping this Christie kid is Bobby Jackson or next year will be similar to this one.

 

[Go Gophs]

Talent? I'm not expecting miracles from freshmen recruits, but these are kids who have been playing basketball their whole lives and they can't even come close to making a wide open jump shot or a free throw? These are recruits who apparently forgot how to block out for rebounding, forgot how to dribble or pass the ball. Young team or not, these players should be able to perform basic basketball skills.

You are correct. If this was high end talent, their offer sheet would reflect it. Not saying it can't be developed, but out of the gate, no this is not "talent like we have never seen". Unless you mean on the low end...

 

[leib0039]

I'm assuming these guys knew that they were committing to a rebuild. We finished last in the Big Ten this previous year and Ben still got Evans and Christie. I'd guess that a big part of his pitch is early playing time. And I'm also willing to bet that there are players who like the idea of laying the foundation of a team/program rather than walking into a perennial winner that simply reloads.

I will say none of us know these kids, everyone has different priorities. You could be 100% right, maybe guys like Payne, Carrington, Battle, Evans etc said hey we want to start something, we know it might be tough and we are sticking it out. That is absolutely possible. But it is also possible that they signed up thinking we would be improved and they would be all B1G players scoring 20 a game on a good team. And after a year in which we win very few games they go yah no this isnt for me and leave. Again I think the odds all 4 freshman (plus the 2 next year) stay here for 4 years is .0001%. That just doenst happen ANYWHERE. Losing is tough, and in todays NCAA landscape good luck with that. It may not be legal but I can almost guarantee you that other programs have put out the notice to a PP or Battle like hey we win more here and can offer more NIL or whatever the case may be. You can think that is unethical, and thats fine but it happens, that just the way of the world.

 

[MNJay]

You are correct on this. Look at the offers. He wasn't highly recruited. Because he is as you a speak, a relative project. That said, it looks as though he will be a really good shot blocker right from the start, and hoping he is able to translate that into lots of rebounds also.

Either way, things won't start to turn around here until we get real guards. Right now it is 55 offensively and that's it. He also doesn't play much D himself. Hoping this Christie kid is Bobby Jackson or next year will be similar to this one.

Most kids enjoy collecting offers and tweeting how blessed they are. But not all.

Evans is rated #13 overall...so obviously almost any team would accept his commitment.

 

[leib0039]

Most kids enjoy collecting offers and tweeting how blessed they are. But not all.

Evans is rated #13 overall...so obviously almost any team would accept his commitment.

And where have you seen 13th overall? Most have him between 31 (247) and 89 (on3).

 

[bga1]

I will say none of us know these kids, everyone has different priorities. You could be 100% right, maybe guys like Payne, Carrington, Battle, Evans etc said hey we want to start something, we know it might be tough and we are sticking it out. That is absolutely possible. But it is also possible that they signed up thinking we would be improved and they would be all B1G players scoring 20 a game on a good team. And after a year in which we win very few games they go yah no this isnt for me and leave. Again I think the odds all 4 freshman (plus the 2 next year) stay here for 4 years is .0001%. That just doenst happen ANYWHERE. Losing is tough, and in todays NCAA landscape good luck with that. It may not be legal but I can almost guarantee you that other programs have put out the notice to a PP or Battle like hey we win more here and can offer more NIL or whatever the case may be. You can think that is unethical, and thats fine but it happens, that just the way of the world.

Battle really showed his frustration last night. He started just chucking any shot he could get no matter how far out he was. Then when he got his 4th foul he appeared to shove away one of our guys who passed by to give him five. With no one able to break things down and kick the ball to him for open looks, he isn't quick enough to beat players like Mississippi State has- so he just couldn't get himself free. Lot's of forced shots...

 

[Go Gophs]

Most kids enjoy collecting offers and tweeting how blessed they are. But not all.

Evans is rated #13 overall...so obviously almost any team would accept his commitment.

Sure they would have. The 2 they have signed for next year are legit top of the conference type of recruits.
I am not worried about them. I just listen to guys around here talk about how talented this year's recruiting class is and I just don't see it.

And again, that doesn't always matter as long as Ben and staff sees something in them they can develop. Lesser recruited guys that work their butt off and stay all 4 years can most definitely be extremely valuable. The staff has a huge part in getting them there though. Let's see what they can do.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I'm assuming these guys knew that they were committing to a rebuild. We finished last in the Big Ten this previous year and Ben still got Evans and Christie. I'd guess that a big part of his pitch is early playing time. And I'm also willing to bet that there are players who like the idea of laying the foundation of a team/program rather than walking into a perennial winner that simply reloads.

I think its becoming more and more obvious to certain players that going to a blue blood and not playing isn't very fun. Maybe Tre Holloman is loving his time in East Lansing or maybe he wants to play 25-30 minutes per game. Not all players are equal.

Clearly anyone committing here knows the situation. Johnson can't sell success--he can sell hope, playing time, etc. Agreed he is doing a good job on that. At some point the rubber meets the road and the recruiting either leads to wins or it doesnt. But anyone wanting to remove him now is irrational.

 

[MNJay]

And where have you seen 13th overall? Most have him between 31 (247) and 89 (on3).

Rivals. I've gone by their their rankings for the last 20 years.

I've never heard of on3.

 

[MNJay]

Sure they would have. The 2 they have signed for next year are legit top of the conference type of recruits.
I am not worried about them. I just listen to guys around here talk about how talented this year's recruiting class is and I just don't see it.

And again, that doesn't always matter as long as Ben and staff sees something in them they can develop. Lesser recruited guys that work their butt off and stay all 4 years can most definitely be extremely valuable. The staff has a huge part in getting them there though. Let's see what they can do.

Yes, Johnson's recruiting got better. Our current freshmen weren't highly ranked...I'm simply hoping they do well enough to be one good by their junior year.