Souhan’s Startribune article: When evaluating Ben Johnson's Gophers future, both patience and perspective are required

[cjbfbp]

Souhan is mistaking being a contrarian with nuance and perspective.

We all know we've been bad. Our bar is incredibly low. Seriously, if we looked like a 6 win Big 10 team this year, Ben would be fairly popular (probably 50/50). Even Ben's harshest critics don't expect him to make the NCAA or anything like that. Gopher basketball fans are incredibly patient and realistic. If the product (on the court) isn't decent next year, we'd have every reason to move on.

This isn't the NBA or the NFL where bottoming out can actually help. Bottoming out hurts.

Just because we've been "bad" for 30 years doesn't mean that extending "horrible" is the solution.

Hard to argue with most of what you've said there but there is something not said explicitly, but perhaps implied, by this article. By hiring Ben Johnson after Pitino, I think this university has demonstrated that it doesn't care about basketball - not the way Nebraska cares about football and Indiana cares about basketball - and probably not even the way this university cares about football and hockey.

I think this university cares about its football program (the biggest moneymaker anyway) and would try to maintain its relatively successful status if Fleck left. In hockey, the university appears to value its status as one of the bigger fish in a small pond.

I don't have any particular faith in Ben Johnson but I do believe he deserves some patience and leeway because of the difficult circumstances of his first two years where he had to recruit completely new or almost completely new teams each year. The article calls him a good recruiter and I guess that a fair characterization.

I'm not convinced that "another year of this kind of play and it's going to impact recruiting/retention." Recruiting didn't seem to be severely impacted by the horrible last year of Monson/Molinari or the horrible 3rd year of Pitino. Granted, we didn't have the liberal transfer rules then that we do now but IA State had that transfer environment after their horrific team in 2021 (2 wins and 22 losses) and they've been able to recruit good players and experience success since.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Hard to argue with most of what you've said there but there is something not said explicitly, but perhaps implied, by this article. By hiring Ben Johnson after Pitino, I think this university has demonstrated that it doesn't care about basketball - not the way Nebraska cares about football and Indiana cares about basketball - and probably not even the way this university cares about football and hockey.

I think this university cares about its football program (the biggest moneymaker anyway) and would try to maintain its relatively successful status if Fleck left. In hockey, the university appears to value its status as one of the bigger fish in a small pond.

I don't have any particular faith in Ben Johnson but I do believe he deserves some patience and leeway because of the difficult circumstances of his first two years where he had to recruit completely new or almost completely new teams each year. The article calls him a good recruiter and I guess that a fair characterization.

I'm not convinced that "another year of this kind of play and it's going to impact recruiting/retention." Recruiting didn't seem to be severely impacted by the horrible last year of Monson/Molinari or the horrible 3rd year of Pitino. Granted, we didn't have the liberal transfer rules then that we do now but IA State had that transfer environment after their horrific team in 2021 (2 wins and 22 losses) and they've been able to recruit good players and experience success since.

Yeah, I haven't really examined it but I would think there would be a difference between one bad season hurting recruiting and three bad seasons (with no track record of success) impacting recruiting. There has to be a point where coaches/parents/players lose faith in a coach's ability to develop talent.

As to your point, I think he deserves leeway. I think he is getting that. None of us expected anything last year and the expectations this year are minimal - - I'm talking like 5-6 Big 10 wins. Even the expectations next year would be minimal (7-8 wins). I think that is leeway and for the most part he is getting that from even his harshest critics.

As to him inheriting a uniquely difficult situation, I disagree. The portal giveth as well as taketh away. The portal allowed him to swap out Tre Williams for Dawson Garcia. It's impacting every coach in the country.

 

[MennoSota]

I know full well Bobby arrived as a junior. Im not whining, just stating facts.

So, you'll give that freshman 2 years to get there?

 

[BarnBurner]

So, you'll give that freshman 2 years to get there?

Get where, Bobby level? Which freshmen?

 

[Bad Gopher]

Cool narrative. We suck so we are going to have to continue sucking. Remember all the times we sucked in the past? More of it will have to come and you better fix your perspective.

The classic Minnesota sports screed: How dare you have expectations for your teams to be excellent (shit, at this point I would take competent from Gophers hoops)! Just sit back, watch the bubbling mediocrity and don’t say a word. And if you do raise objections to being a fan of a team that puts out a garbage product year after year you’ll be scolded as being unrealistic. F**k this weak take.

There's a reason the sports suck around here, and this culture and attitude are a good deal of that reason.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

it's easy to say "if they would have hired the coach I wanted, the Gophers would be better."

the problem is, there is no way to prove it.

Johnson will either succeed, or he won't.

If he doesn't succeed, the Gophers will hire a new coach.

and then we'll see if the new coach can succeed.

what you or I think really doesn't matter. Unless you are a big-time donor to the U and your money provides you with access to Coyle or the administration.

 

[howeda7]

it's easy to say "if they would have hired the coach I wanted, the Gophers would be better."

the problem is, there is no way to prove it.

Johnson will either succeed, or he won't.

If he doesn't succeed, the Gophers will hire a new coach.

and then we'll see if the new coach can succeed.

what you or I think really doesn't matter. Unless you are a big-time donor to the U and your money provides you with access to Coyle or the administration.

I don't think "if they'd hired an experienced coach, they'd have done better than 6-34 in the B1G through two seasons" is a big leap of faith.

 

[WindyCityGopher]

There's a reason the sports suck around here, and this culture and attitude are a good deal of that reason.

100 damn percent. Until fans start holding owners/administrators feet to the fire (and vote with their wallets) to make it clear in no uncertain terms that a culture of mediocrity is no longer acceptable, things won’t change.

 

[SelectionSunday]

Good question but maybe too aggressively challenging. I don't know. Acie Earl of early nineties Iowa maybe?

Good comp. I’d be happy if Evans has a Acie Earl type career.

Here’s another one. How about Calvin Booth?

 

[Bfan]

Give me the past comparable NCAA big man freshman that Evans will be. Who is it? Pick a big NCAA freshman big man from the 80's to today. You seem to know the impact he will have, so tell us who will he be equivalent to?

I think you're on the right track here.

Evans has a freakish 7' 7" wingspan. To put that in perspective, Kevin Garnett had a 6' 11" wingspan. Garnett went straight from prep to pros skipping college. Like Garnett at this stage, Evans has to put on muscle without it hampering his game.

For guys with that 7' 7" wingspan I think Jermaine O'Neal was at 7' 6". He went straight to the NBA too.

One reason Evans's stock has been rising is because his offense was uncertain, and the latest video shows him working at that and scoring. Plus he has that astounding wingspan where he bats shots down, leaps freakish handreach heights, and seems to distribute the ball as needed.

He did make the U17 USA national team.

It is hard to compare to college guys like him that may go soon to the NBA and few have that wingspan.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

If it gets embarrassing tonight I expect a Coyle statement supporting Ben.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

If it gets embarrassing tonight I expect a Coyle statement supporting Ben.

If? Describe what qualifies as an embarrassment as we have some big losses already this year? 30+ points?

 

[WindyCityGopher]

Good comp. I’d be happy if Evans has a Acie Earl type career.

Here’s another one. How about Calvin Booth?

Booth is an interesting comp physically (and with a defense-first game), but if people think Calvin Booth is turning the fortunes of this program they’re going to be very disappointed. I sincerely hope Evans is significantly better than Booth.

 

[MennoSota]

Get where, Bobby level? Which freshmen?

Don't play dumb. You brought up Bobby Jackson. Either they come as freshmen, as jr college recruits, or via the portal. Either way, we need a guard to come in and lead.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

M gear on and I am ordering spicy kung pao! Let’s go!

 

[Gopher Teeth]

I think you're on the right track here.

Evans has a freakish 7' 7" wingspan. To put that in perspective, Kevin Garnett had a 6' 11" wingspan. Garnett went straight from prep to pros skipping college. Like Garnett at this stage, Evans has to put on muscle without it hampering his game.

For guys with that 7' 7" wingspan I think Jermaine O'Neal was at 7' 6". He went straight to the NBA too.

One reason Evans's stock has been rising is because his offense was uncertain, and the latest video shows him working at that and scoring. Plus he has that astounding wingspan where he bats shots down, leaps freakish handreach heights, and seems to distribute the ball as needed.

He did make the U17 USA national team.

It is hard to compare to college guys like him that may go soon to the NBA and few have that wingspan.

So just to be clear, you believe that Evans freshman year he will be comparable to Kevin Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal at the same age?

If so now it makes sense why you think he will single handedly turn things around. I think that is crazy, but now I understand why the team around him doesn't matter much to you.

 

[Tater]

Per the column:

Let's review how this program got to this point:

• Haskins was an ideal coach for Minnesota, except for the cheating, which got him fired and prompted Minnesota to hire Dan Monson.
• Monson was hired to win without cheating. He never seemed comfortable in Minnesota and eventually resigned, having taken the Gophers to the NCAA tournament once in eight seasons.
• Smith was hired and took the Gophers to the tournament in his second, third and sixth seasons before Teague fired him. That performance felt like a disappointment, given Smith's Hall of Fame résumé. Now it should be remembered as Gophers hoops nirvana.
• Teague hired Pitino because he couldn't find anyone else to take the job.
• When Pitino was fired, Minnesota again had trouble landing an established coach and chose to hire an excellent recruiter in Johnson.
• Johnson started his career by winning 10 of his first 11 games. He has lost 27 of his last 37.

If this were an established, winning program, Johnson would be fired. But if this were an established, winning program, Johnson would not have been hired.

Minnesota's brain trust should avoid the mistake Teague made, and acknowledge that this is a traditionally mediocre program that needs to recruit better players. Johnson has already started doing that.

When evaluating Ben Johnson's Gophers future, both patience and perspective are required

Those who are questioning whether Ben Johnson should be given proper time to build his team are misjudging the caliber of the Gophers men's program and its place in major men's college basketball.

m.startribune.com

Go Gophers!!

It might be an oversimplification of the Gophers’ coaching decisions, but it’s not wrong necessarily. I want Coach Johnson to do well, love the Gophers, and really dislike Souhan as a writer, but this might be the most accurate (albeit not precise) summary of the Gophers’ downfall since Clem and then Tubby.

Gopher basketball should be Average to Above Average based on local talent and ability to bring in outside recruits. If it were such a solid destination, we’d entice better coaching candidates and be able to take the pick of a few great options. It really hasn’t happened for some time which is concerning.

 

[Bfan]

So just to be clear, you believe that Evans freshman year he will be comparable to Kevin Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal at the same age?

If so now it makes sense why you think he will single handedly turn things around. I think that is crazy, but now I understand why the team around him doesn't matter much to you.

Evans is a difficult comparison to any player I explained.

To your original post, I am 100% for Johnson and way take his coaching over the other likely alternatives.

Clearly, te coaches have been coaching and coaching and now finally thr players are coming around to the Johnson coaching. Just look at the difference Johnson's coaching made since the coaching season began to today.

I was impressed with the Indiana game. And Michigan. And Ohio State. The players are starting to show the great Johnson coaching.


Johnson is a great coach. Players take time to be able to do what coach teaches them.

I am pulling for Henley and Carrington. Last night Henley flashed.

Next year you will hate this but Johnson will succeed.

I enthusiastic support Ben Johnson. I look forward to the success ahead.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

So just to be clear, you believe that Evans freshman year he will be comparable to Kevin Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal at the same age?

If so now it makes sense why you think he will single handedly turn things around. I think that is crazy, but now I understand why the team around him doesn't matter much to you.

It is insane that logic. Comparing him to Garnett and Jermaine O’Neal

 

[WindyCityGopher]

Johnson is a great coach. Players take time to be able to do what coach teaches them.

Just stop. It’s a statement so ridiculous that’s it’s not even entertaining as parody.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

"Evans has a freakish 7' 7" wingspan. To put that in perspective, Kevin Garnett had a 6' 11" wingspan."


Maybe there at St Thomas you can work on compare and contrast. That's contrast.

How are many of these guys do you recognize in/from the NBA as great players (hint you’ve never seen lots of them in the league). Having a big wingspan is great, but you also have to be a really good basketball player, which based on videos is still tbd on Evans. Many of these guys, if from American colleges did nothing.

 

[BleedGopher]

How are many of these guys doing in the NBA (hint you’ve never seen 80% of them in the league). Having a big wingspan is great, but you also have to be a really good basketball player, which based on videos is still tbd on Evans.

View attachment 23391

Doug Wrenn!! He got us KB who actually did play in The League!

Go Gophers!!

 

[60's Guy]

Judging guys by measurables at the combine gets guys who can't play football drafted every year.
Only to be beat out by 7th rounders and undrafted free agents who can play. The list above shows wingspan alone is not enough.

So, in 2021, 2022, 2023, the portal will likely never be more fertile. Lots of guys available who can get your team in the Top 25 overnight. I could name a couple who went this route starting with no players.
OR, you can be a contrarian and go after 8 freshmen and hope they turn your program around before they leave to win with somebody else in the portal. Which route would you pick?

You can say, but we added Battle and Garcia. Yes, we did. Our two best scorers. And we had Willis for a year. And we added Cooper. All proof that the portal thing kinda works? ( I know we also added some gamble sleepers from D2 and obscure locations too...not an instant impact there either)

The freshmen idea? We will see but how many Big Ten wins will it earn? An average of three per year after two years, needs a huge jump in year three to suggest it is the best way of doing things in the heydey of the portal. The freshmen gotta stay and they gotta get what? two? three? times better by next year.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Judging guys by measurables at the combine gets guys who can't play football drafted every year.
Only to be beat out by 7th rounders and undrafted free agents who can play. The list above shows wingspan alone is not enough.

So, in 2021, 2022, 2023, the portal will likely never be more fertile. Lots of guys available who can get your team in the Top 25 overnight. I could name a couple who went this route starting with no players.
OR, you can be a contrarian and go after 8 freshmen and hope they turn your program around before they leave to win with somebody else in the portal. Which route would you pick?

You can say, but we added Battle and Garcia. Yes, we did. Our two best scorers. And we had Willis for a year. And we added Cooper. All proof that the portal thing kinda works? ( I know we also added some gamble sleepers from D2 and obscure locations too...not an instant impact there either)

The freshmen idea? We will see but how many Big Ten wins will it earn? An average of three per year after two years, needs a huge jump in year three to suggest it is the best way of doing things in the heydey of the portal. The freshmen gotta stay and they gotta get what? two? three? times better by next year.

The best way to build a program as a new coach (assuming he inherits a dumpster fire…hence why the coaching gig is open),

1) get portal players to win now, securing the best recruiting class you can for year 1…but it is about winning now

2) use immediate success to get more portal players for year 2 and continue to get high level recruits for sustained success

*then as your freshmen from first two classes earn starting jobs across the board (and I mean EARN), you can lessen your reliance on the portal to more of a spot need and shift your future build to more recruiting at that point. You’re always looking and open to a portal star, but your focus is on recruiting pipeline at that point. But, above all else, winning is the goal

 

[GopherPharmaBiz]

The best way to build a program as a new coach (assuming he inherits a dumpster fire…hence why the coaching gig is open),

1) get portal players to win now, securing the best recruiting class you can for year 1…but it is about winning now

2) use immediate success to get more portal players for year 2 and continue to get high level recruits for sustained success

*then as your freshmen from first two classes earn starting jobs across the board (and I mean EARN), you can lessen your reliance on the portal to more of a spot need and shift your future build to more recruiting at that point. You’re always looking and open to a portal star, but your focus is on recruiting pipeline at that point. But, above all else, winning is the goal

This seems correct to me and is illustrative of why people comparing Johnson’s first years to Clem’s can’t be done. Totally different eras and ground rules.

Now: remember when Coyle said Johnson “blew him away” in the interview (or something to that effect). I would assume he laid out some kind of blueprint. Clearly it wasn’t as described in the above…

 

[bga1]

This seems correct to me and is illustrative of why people comparing Johnson’s first years to Clem’s can’t be done. Totally different eras and ground rules.

Now: remember when Coyle said Johnson “blew him away” in the interview (or something to that effect). I would assume he laid out some kind of blueprint. Clearly it wasn’t as described in the above…

Clem would have rebuilt much faster had he had the portal to work with, IMO.

 

[BarnBurner]

Doug Wrenn!! He got us KB who actually did play in The League!

Go Gophers!!

KB was a kid who had more shots go in and pop back out of the hoop than I have ever seen. I loved the kid!

 

[Plato]

Two things, if your wingspan is greater than your height you have a very good chance of having Marfan Syndrome. Which is not a good thing.
Second, the BIG BB is very strange this year with no real dominant team that blows away every other team. And some teams that started well are in decline, WI for one, and MN though not winning is playing better.
The BIG tournament will be interesting this year.
I expect MN to beat WI in the final game of the regular season.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Clem would have rebuilt much faster had he had the portal to work with, IMO.

And would have taken the fast path to failure. 2027

 

[cjbfbp]

How are many of these guys do you recognize in/from the NBA as great players (hint you’ve never seen lots of them in the league). Having a big wingspan is great, but you also have to be a really good basketball player, which based on videos is still tbd on Evans. Many of these guys, if from American colleges did nothing.

View attachment 23391

Well, Gobert is perhaps the premier defensive post in the league, Mo Bamba is a good NBA player, and Hassan Whiteside played in 511 NBA games.

But, that argument is foolish and irrelevant to us as college basketball fans. You can present something like this for pretty much every position in basketball. For example, Adam Morrison and Jimmer Fredette were busts in the NBA but were great college players. Daniel Oturu didn't stick in the NBA and Jordan Murphy never had a shot at the league but they were highly productive players for us.

Dennis Evans isn't just someone with a long wingspan. He is also highly rated by multiple services (probably as highly rated of a player as we can ever hope to get). Chances are that he will do well here. Whether he can succeed at the next level is not our concern right now.