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[howeda7]

So you have mentioned this in a couple threads now. After the next two in December. At the break in February. What would either scenario accomplish? The next coach isn't on the bench right now. I don't think you fire a coach in the middle of the year absent the players quitting on the coach or some scandal. I've seen neither.

Same thing it did with Monson. Get the toxic air out of the Barn and give Coyle a head start on the new hire. Also, as with Monson/Molinari, perhaps Jeter or Conroy are better X's and O's coaches in some areas and can make some improvement on defense, etc.

As for the exact timing, it doesn't really matter except you would likey want to do it when there is a decent break between games. So either after Oklahoma State, when they only play once in 12 days against FIU or the break in February make sense.

 

[Five Toes]

I think most on this Forum have been in their first high level job with the expectation of setting the world on fire only to somehow get behind the eight ball. You can't quit because you are so competitive and sure of yourself that you keep going forward. You keep the strong image, but in the back of your mind you hope it will end so you can start over. Not saying this is what Coach Pitino is thinking, just a clear slate can look really good.

 

[howeda7]

I think most on this Forum have been in their first high level job with the expectation of setting the world on fire only to somehow get behind the eight ball. You can't quit because you are so competitive and sure of yourself that you keep going forward. You keep the strong image, but in the back of your mind you hope it will end so you can start over. Not saying this is what Coach Pitino is thinking, just a clear slate can look really good.

Plenty of good coaches flame out on job 1 and go on to good careers. Bill Belichck, Mike Shanahan, etc. Might be the case with Pitino, too. Doesn't meant it's the wrong move.

 

[MplsGopher]

Longer term, is it reasonable to expect Pitino will ever dig out from his woeful career record to the point where he's got a lifetime winning conference record or even something other than the worst conference coaching record in school history?

However, there is a more fundamental question, that I believe supercedes this question.

Because, even though it could well be the case that the answer to your question is "Yes, it is reasonable to expect that", this question should have come before it:

why does Pitino even deserve the chance? In any other football or MBB P5(6) program, these kind of results after 7/8 seasons would earn you nothing more than a dismissal.


There are lots of coaches, who were fired for poor performances, who might've had a reasonable expectation to turn things around. If only this and that .... if only the other thing hadn't happened ... and so on.

 

[gophereric30]

However, there is a more fundamental question, that I believe supercedes this question.

Because, even though it could well be the case that the answer to your question is "Yes, it is reasonable to expect that", this question should have come before it:

why does Pitino even deserve the chance? In any other football or MBB P5(6) program, these kind of results after 7/8 seasons would earn you nothing more than a dismissal.


There are lots of coaches, who were fired for poor performances, who might've had a reasonable expectation to turn things around. If only this and that .... if only the other thing hadn't happened ... and so on.

It doesn't matter what other scenarios were at other universities. It all comes down to what coyle thinks and what direction he thinks the program is moving.

 

[MplsGopher]

It doesn't matter what other scenarios were at other universities. It all comes down to what coyle thinks and what direction he thinks the program is moving.

You think Coyle will ignore all history and all of his experience, when making this decision?

 

[Gopherfan84]

Same thing it did with Monson. Get the toxic air out of the Barn and give Coyle a head start on the new hire. Also, as with Monson/Molinari, perhaps Jeter or Conroy are better X's and O's coaches in some areas and can make some improvement on defense, etc.

As for the exact timing, it doesn't really matter except you would likey want to do it when there is a decent break between games. So either after Oklahoma State, when they only play once in 12 days against FIU or the break in February make sense.

Jeter runs the defense already which is why we are better than in past. Conroy is not better X's and O's wise. Richard honestly isn't bad at that part either on the offensive end. His stuff isn't my favorite, but he runs actions and they get what they want.

 

[gophereric30]

Yeah he may, but ultimately he is going to make his decision based on where he thinks THIS program stands and what direction he thinks its going. Not sure how many tough decisions he had to make with the syracuse program since boeheim has been there for a million years.

 

[benlaur]

I missed yesterday's game. Did we get him some open looks?

My point is, good coaches like good leaders in general put people in a position to succeed. It sounds simple and everyone thinks they are doing it, but lets be real, they are not. I think Pitino needs to take a better inventory of what skills he has and how he can best utilize those skills. I don't think we are just going to overwhelm teams with our talent, so we need to get more out of the *team*. The game needs to be made easier. I have not watched enough this year, but what I have seen, has not been especially good basketball.

 

[bga1]

Jeter runs the defense already which is why we are better than in past. Conroy is not better X's and O's wise. Richard honestly isn't bad at that part either on the offensive end. His stuff isn't my favorite, but he runs actions and they get what they want.

Pitino has actually adapted the offense to this team quite well. Last year it was drive, drive, drive and get to the foul line or make a layup. This year he doesn't have anyone that can finish on the rim so they have gotten the ball into the post with good frequency and they shoot threes. The problem against Iowa wasn't the availability of open shots. They just didn't make them.

By the way, one of the concerns about this team was that they would get hammered on the boards. So far, that has not happened. Oturu has been great and Carr has done a tremendous job of gathering rebounds from the guard position. He out rebounds Coffey- strange as that seems.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Pitino has actually adapted the offense to this team quite well. Last year it was drive, drive, drive and get to the foul line or make a layup. This year he doesn't have anyone that can finish on the rim so they have gotten the ball into the post with good frequency and they shoot threes. The problem against Iowa wasn't the availability of open shots. They just didn't make them.

By the way, one of the concerns about this team was that they would get hammered on the boards. So far, that has not happened. Oturu has been great and Carr has done a tremendous job of gathering rebounds from the guard position. He out rebounds Coffey- strange as that seems.

Yes I still believe this team would be very good if they would stop turning the ball over and would shoot to what I believe they can. Now of course that could be said about 95% of all 4-5 teams...

 

[Bad Gopher]

Plenty of good coaches flame out on job 1 and go on to good careers. Bill Belichck, Mike Shanahan, etc. Might be the case with Pitino, too. Doesn't meant it's the wrong move.

Also worth noting that the Big Ten is a tough conference that doesn't lend itself well to cutting your teeth on the job. Plenty of coaches have failed to cut the mustard here and have thrived--or at least gotten their feet under them--in other leagues (Tommy Amaker and Mike Davis, to name a couple). I think Richard could be more successful if he had the breathing room to "figure things out" or "turn a corner" at a less meatgrinder of a situation.

 

[tikited]

By the way, one of the concerns about this team was that they would get hammered on the boards. So far, that has not happened. Oturu has been great and Carr has done a tremendous job of gathering rebounds from the guard position. He out rebounds Coffey- strange as that seems.

Part of that was by design. Coffey ended up more outside the lane than Carr does right now. Coffey also leaked out for breaks more than Carr. I actually like Carr's effort. He just isn't a PG or at least a starting PG.

 

[bga1]

Part of that was by design. Coffey ended up more outside the lane than Carr does right now. Coffey also leaked out for breaks more than Carr. I actually like Carr's effort. He just isn't a PG or at least a starting PG.

I agree. I'd rather see Carr off the ball more. I see the ability he has. PGs lead teams and it is very concerning to me that Carr is 0-19 in conference play as a PG, no matter how bad his team mates were. That was my one concern on him going in. I assumed it was freshman decision making and a lousy team. We will wait and see how this goes.

 

[builtbadgers]

Also worth noting that the Big Ten is a tough conference that doesn't lend itself well to cutting your teeth on the job. Plenty of coaches have failed to cut the mustard here and have thrived--or at least gotten their feet under them--in other leagues (Tommy Amaker and Mike Davis, to name a couple). I think Richard could be more successful if he had the breathing room to "figure things out" or "turn a corner" at a less meatgrinder of a situation.

Mike Davis rocked his way to the NCAA championship game in his first year as a head coach. Iam not looking for the next Tommy Amaker.

 

[benlaur]

Pitino has actually adapted the offense to this team quite well. Last year it was drive, drive, drive and get to the foul line or make a layup. This year he doesn't have anyone that can finish on the rim so they have gotten the ball into the post with good frequency and they shoot threes. The problem against Iowa wasn't the availability of open shots. They just didn't make them.

By the way, one of the concerns about this team was that they would get hammered on the boards. So far, that has not happened. Oturu has been great and Carr has done a tremendous job of gathering rebounds from the guard position. He out rebounds Coffey- strange as that seems.

BGA, our record would indicate we have not adapted as well as you have indicated. I promise to watch Sunday and report back what I see. Clearly, something is amuck. From what I have seen this year, they have not made the game easy by making the smart and sometimes simple play.

Often, the game is won and lost at the margin. Watching the Wolves lately, their transition defense has been weak, they half box out and they are married to the 3 and take too many contested 3s while giving up uncontested 3s (their close outs earlier in the year were awesome). They were tighter on these things earlier in the year, they loosened a little and the wheels have come off. If you consistently do the little things and you have halfway decent talent, you will win more than you lose. We are losing more than we are winning...something is off in our equation.

 

[benlaur]

I agree. I'd rather see Carr off the ball more. I see the ability he has. PGs lead teams and it is very concerning to me that Carr is 0-19 in conference play as a PG, no matter how bad his team mates were. That was my one concern on him going in. I assumed it was freshman decision making and a lousy team. We will wait and see how this goes.

Yes, maybe take some burden off him and get his confidence going. Have we asked too much of him?

 

[Gopherfan84]

I truly don't understand the Carr is not a point guard talk. His past suggests that his shooting percentages will go up. His assist numbers are also good considering how poor we are shooting as a team. I'd like to see the 2.4 TOs go down and believe they will as our offense continues to become more fluid. I respect the worries of his scoring, but I think that will get better and I could care less if he scores if he has 7 Assists to 1 TO and he's getting others involved.

I think our biggest issue lies with Gabe's and all the others struggles to shoot the basketball and defend consistently (although I still think we defend better this year than last years team). I understand part of this is Gabe's added roles and responsibilities on offense. I think they will still figure it out and be better as the year goes on as long as they continue to buy into defending.

 

[gophereric30]

I agree. I'd rather see Carr off the ball more. I see the ability he has. PGs lead teams and it is very concerning to me that Carr is 0-19 in conference play as a PG, no matter how bad his team mates were. That was my one concern on him going in. I assumed it was freshman decision making and a lousy team. We will wait and see how this goes.

I truly don't understand the Carr is not a point guard talk. His past suggests that his shooting percentages will go up. His assist numbers are also good considering how poor we are shooting as a team. I'd like to see the 2.4 TOs go down and believe they will as our offense continues to become more fluid. I respect the worries of his scoring, but I think that will get better and I could care less if he scores if he has 7 Assists to 1 TO and he's getting others involved.

I think our biggest issue lies with Gabe's and all the others struggles to shoot the basketball and defend consistently (although I still think we defend better this year than last years team). I understand part of this is Gabe's added roles and responsibilities on offense. I think they will still figure it out and be better as the year goes on as long as they continue to buy into defending.

I agree with this. Amazingly, Tre Jones and Marcus Carr have very similar stats in their career, but to some Marcus Carr is terrible. I think his shooting percentages will go up and his turnovers will go down in time. His 0-19 record in conference has a lot to do with the fact that Pitt had 0 starters returning and 3 guys with Division 1 experience on their roster.

 

[MplsGopher]

I truly don't understand the Carr is not a point guard talk. His past suggests that his shooting percentages will go up. His assist numbers are also good considering how poor we are shooting as a team. I'd like to see the 2.4 TOs go down and believe they will as our offense continues to become more fluid. I respect the worries of his scoring, but I think that will get better and I could care less if he scores if he has 7 Assists to 1 TO and he's getting others involved.

I think our biggest issue lies with Gabe's and all the others struggles to shoot the basketball and defend consistently (although I still think we defend better this year than last years team). I understand part of this is Gabe's added roles and responsibilities on offense. I think they will still figure it out and be better as the year goes on as long as they continue to buy into defending.

So you think that for example, barring injury, coaching change mid-season, or something major like that, we have a good chance to perform much better vs Iowa on Feb 16?

 

[gophereric30]

So you think that for example, barring injury, coaching change mid-season, or something major like that, we have a good chance to perform much better vs Iowa on Feb 16?

Don't you? We will be at home, cant shoot any worse than we did at iowa, and i would hope we are playing alot better by then.

 

[Gopherfan84]

So you think that for example, barring injury, coaching change mid-season, or something major like that, we have a good chance to perform much better vs Iowa on Feb 16?

Would almost guarantee it considering we are playing at home alone, but yes I do think we will be better. Iowa has question marks too with Bohannan and they don't have all this depth either like us. The fixes we needed to make on defense were not schematic to me. I felt they can be fixed with effort and more awareness.

 

[builtbadgers]

I agree with this. Amazingly, Tre Jones and Marcus Carr have very similar stats in their career, but to some Marcus Carr is terrible. I think his shooting percentages will go up and his turnovers will go down in time. His 0-19 record in conference has a lot to do with the fact that Pitt had 0 starters returning and 3 guys with Division 1 experience on their roster.

Defensively Jones is the best perimeter defender in college hoops.

 

[gophereric30]

Defensively Jones is the best perimeter defender in college hoops.

He may be, but that doesn't change my point of Marcus Carr is not terrible.

 

[builtbadgers]

He may be, but that doesn't change my point of Marcus Carr is not terrible.

Agree. Not only do i like him but i still like the upside of this team. Will be fun to see if they reach it.

 

[gophereric30]

Agree. Not only do i like him but i still like the upside of this team. Will be fun to see if they reach it.

I get that Tre Jones is a better player(1st rounder) and 100 out of 100 people would take jones over Carr, but i was just trying to show that Carr isn't as bad as people make him out to be.

 

[builtbadgers]

He can score the ball and find open guys. Hope he gets the idea of controlling pace and flow and that he will pay the price by getting low and wide on defense. That builds a toughness of a leader and is contagious . This team is still finding it's way, like a whole bunch of other teams. I know of several ranked teams that are playing poorly but they have good records because of great defense.

 

[gophereric30]

He can score the ball and find open guys. Hope he gets the idea of controlling pace and flow and that he will pay the price by getting low and wide on defense. That builds a toughness of a leader and is contagious . This team is still finding it's way, like a whole bunch of other teams. I know of several ranked teams that are playing poorly but they have good records because of great defense.

I have no doubt that we will get better. Although a tough team coming on Sunday, i fully expect a great effort! As much as people say our roster sucks, we have some guys that can play at a high level. Just waiting for everyone to start being more consistent!

 

[jovs]

Oturu has to learn to dump the ball back out to the perimeter, he was getting double and triple teamed and the result was a turnover as often as not, just that could amount to 4 or 5 more completely open threes. He's got shooters around him, he has to learn to use them.

 

[Some guy]

It doesn't matter what other scenarios were at other universities. It all comes down to what coyle thinks and what direction he thinks the program is moving.

Correct

You don’t fire a bad coach because he has a bad record. You don’t keep a coach because he has a good record.

you keep a coach you think Can get it done
You fire a coach who can’t.



I know I don’t think pitino is the answer. I don’t think you fire him based on this year or two years ago. You fire him based on what you think he is going to do next year. Hopefully Coyle thinks this way.