Results

[bga1]

I refuse to debate someone who simply ignores the arguments of the person on the other side. The point of my last post was that you don't judge a coach's player development by his top players unless they weren't so good to start with, but you insist on doing just that.

Crediting Pitino for the development of Austin Hollins is laughable. Austin was tremendously motivated, a natural leader, and the son of an NBA coach. Furthermore, he played only one year for Pitino. I'll give Pitino credit for getting Walker to lose weight. Oturu was very good when he arrived here. His improvement in production this year is about what you would expect from a player of his caliber who is now the #1 player on the team instead of the third or fourth option. I've already commented on Murphy and Mason.

If players get better than when they started- that's development. By your standards, Tom Izzo and Coach K never develop players because they are all good anyway- all 4 and 5 stars. Hollins played better under Pitino than any year under Tubby and I would say that is because of the more open system, but that's a fair criticism of my analysis.

 

[bga1]

You badly misinterpret what I said.
I wanted Pitino fired last year. Don’t think he manages a roster well.

but unless they’re idiots they brought him back this year knowing we would take a big step back.
I don’t think Coyle is an idiot.

behind the scenes Coyle must think Pitino has got things going the right way. I don’t see it.

I don’t think he will be fired before 2021 though

My guess is that Coyle sees this:

Pitino is .500 in three of his years with solid rosters, an NIT championship and two NCAA appearances He was conference coach of the year. He also has had three horrid years (6-12, 4-14, 2-16).
My guess is that Coyle sees that Pitino recruiting is getting better and more solid and that he coaches well when he has a roster that is decent. Pitino had one borderline great roster and the year got blown up by injuries and the Lynch issue which was questionable.

So he is a solid coach, IMO, who has needed to recruit better rosters. That trend is improving. There is a decent argument to keep him and a decent argument to fire him. It all depends on who the AD thinks he has to replace him. A sure thing and he pulls the trigger. Otherwise, no.

 

[bga1]

I'd say the two you mentioned are the best examples. Konate was on his way to developing a pretty decent hook shot early in his soph year but, for reasons unknown, he went away from that and was practically a non-entity on the offensive end for the rest of his career. Bakary's points per 40 minutes went from 10.9 his freshman year to 8.9 his soph year to 6.6 his junior year to 4.8 in his final year. That's a clear regression at least on the offensive end. Hurt improved from his freshman to soph year (most people do) but has not improved much at all since (although he did play well against Clemson).

A number of other players have regressed under Pitino. Three immediately come to mind. Elliot was a pretty decent defensive center during Pitino's first year but regressed into a mess his senior year. Both Morris and Mathieu were better in their first (junior) year than their second under this coach.

Konate got replaced by Lynch- thus the numbers drop. Konate had two major issues, slow reactions and he couldn't catch the ball. His hand eye coordination just wasn't real good despite what an impressive physical specimen he was.

Mathieu had a baby his second year and was mentally elsewhere. Fair point on Morris- no doubt he and Pitino did not connect.

 

[ltf]

My guess is that Coyle sees this:

Pitino is .500 in three of his years with solid rosters, an NIT championship and two NCAA appearances He was conference coach of the year. He also has had three horrid years (6-12, 4-14, 2-16).
My guess is that Coyle sees that Pitino recruiting is getting better and more solid and that he coaches well when he has a roster that is decent. Pitino had one borderline great roster and the year got blown up by injuries and the Lynch issue which was questionable.

So he is a solid coach, IMO, who has needed to recruit better rosters. That trend is improving. There is a decent argument to keep him and a decent argument to fire him. It all depends on who the AD thinks he has to replace him. A sure thing and he pulls the trigger. Otherwise, no.

Agree with your assessment of Coach and also see no reason to not trust Coyle's judgment either way.

 

[dpodoll68]

Thibs had a much more talented roster than those folks.

All the more reason that the comment was nonsensical. Thibs wasn't anything special for the Timberwolves, but he was like Wooden compared to the rest of them - Flip 1.0 excluded.

 

[Some guy]

My guess is that Coyle sees this:

Pitino is .500 in three of his years with solid rosters, an NIT championship and two NCAA appearances He was conference coach of the year. He also has had three horrid years (6-12, 4-14, 2-16).
My guess is that Coyle sees that Pitino recruiting is getting better and more solid and that he coaches well when he has a roster that is decent. Pitino had one borderline great roster and the year got blown up by injuries and the Lynch issue which was questionable.

So he is a solid coach, IMO, who has needed to recruit better rosters. That trend is improving. There is a decent argument to keep him and a decent argument to fire him. It all depends on who the AD thinks he has to replace him. A sure thing and he pulls the trigger. Otherwise, no.

Agree with all of this.
Since he extended him, I think barring a 2-18 or worse big ten season he probably gets 2020-21 to prove himself

 

[LesBolstad]

Agree with all of this.
Since he extended him, I think barring a 2-18 or worse big ten season he probably gets 2020-21 to prove himself

9 years to prove himself?, gosh. That's a great gig if you can get it. And pull down about 18 million while you cut you teeth.

 

[builtbadgers]

5-15 would get him fired but we are not going 5-15.

 

[cjbfbp]

9 years to prove himself?, gosh. That's a great gig if you can get it. And pull down about 18 million while you cut you teeth.

Yes, that's a pretty amazing tolerance level when it comes to Pitino. The guy has led a charmed life.

 

[cjbfbp]

5-15 would get him fired but we are not going 5-15.

OK, how about 7-13? That would be the 3rd losing season in 7 years and the 4th with no postseason.

 

[bga1]

OK, how about 7-13? That would be the 3rd losing season in 7 years and the 4th with no postseason.

That depends on what the AD thinks the future is. If he thinks that Pitino is about to turn the corner and has the team and recruits to go 13-7 the following year- he stays. If he thinks it will be more of the same- he goes.

 

[MennoSota]

That depends on what the AD thinks the future is. If he thinks that Pitino is about to turn the corner and has the team and recruits to go 13-7 the following year- he stays. If he thinks it will be more of the same- he goes.

Don't you think that corner should have been turned at least two years ago?

 

[Gopherfan84]

Don't you think that corner should have been turned at least two years ago?

It matters what Mark Coyle thinks, not ourselves. 2 years ago the corner had looked to be turned. We were ranked in the top 20 in the country.

 

[MennoSota]

It matters what Mark Coyle thinks, not ourselves. 2 years ago the corner had looked to be turned. We were ranked in the top 20 in the country.

No s@#& it matters what Coyle thinks. The point is that the corner has not been made. We are no better off than we were with Tubby Smith. We remain mired in mediocrity.

 

[WoodburyTim]

That depends on what the AD thinks the future is. If he thinks that Pitino is about to turn the corner and has the team and recruits to go 13-7 the following year- he stays. If he thinks it will be more of the same- he goes.

I would like to see this happen and really do not wish to start over, but if Oturu leaves I have trouble seeing a big jump like this next year.

 

[bga1]

I would like to see this happen and really do not wish to start over, but if Oturu leaves I have trouble seeing a big jump like this next year.

I agree with you there. If Oturu leaves next year....ouch.

 

[MissouriGopher]

No s@#& it matters what Coyle thinks. The point is that the corner has not been made. We are no better off than we were with Tubby Smith. We remain mired in mediocrity.

Turning the corner doesn't look like this:
It looks like this:

I would argue that we did turn a corner in 2017 and this was always going to be a more difficult year while we regroup and grow the next. (Though I still think we finish with a decent amount of wins in B1G play)

 

[Gopherfan84]

No s@#& it matters what Coyle thinks. The point is that the corner has not been made. We are no better off than we were with Tubby Smith. We remain mired in mediocrity.

Not necessarily disagreeing with the mediocrity. I still think we are in a better place and Tubby's reign was falling based on poor recruiting classes and apathy although this is just an opinion not a guarantee. I'm just answer the point that 2 years ago at this time we were looking pretty good and like the corner had been turned. Then the dumpster fire and last years team which was ok.

 

[howeda7]

To me Pitino has to either get this team back or at least near the NCAA's or hit a HR in 2020 recruiting (Garcia etc.). So far both look unlikely. I'd put 15-15 as the cut-off, which at this point will likely mean going 10-10 in the B1G. If we manage that. He stays. If we don't, it's time to move on.

 

[Bad Gopher]

To me Pitino has to either get this team back or at least near the NCAA's or hit a HR in 2020 recruiting (Garcia etc.). So far both look unlikely. I'd put 15-15 as the cut-off, which at this point will likely mean going 10-10 in the B1G. If we manage that. He stays. If we don't, it's time to move on.

Right now the Gophers look like the 10th or 11th best team in the conference. Whatever the typical 10th or 11th best conference record has historically looked like, if they perform better than that, then Pitino has improved the team as the season's gone on, which is what you want to see. (Last year, 10th/11th place was 7-13.) Since this team is so newcomer-dependent, they almost HAVE to get better than their 4-4 start, just by virtue of getting used to each other, so you have to take that into account.

 

[golfing18now]

I think most of the posters on this board (including many of the ardent anti-Pitino crowd) felt he had earned a seventh year based on how last year finished. You don't go back at that point and say he should have been fired after year three or after year five. You evaluate the program at that time. They had a decent finish to the conference season, wins in the conference tournament, an NCAA appearance, a nice win over Louisville, decent class coming in this fall, etc. etc. At that point in time, it looked like the trajectory of the program was an upward track. He had earned a seventh year -- not four games, not eight games -- a full year. What I don't understand is how the same people throw their hands in the air based on any one recruit's decision (Dawson Garcia) or any stretch of three/four games in the non-conference schedule. Let the season play out and then evaluate the program at the end of year seven. It's ridiculous, in my opinion, to consider making a change in December.

 

[MennoSota]

I think most of the posters on this board (including many of the ardent anti-Pitino crowd) felt he had earned a seventh year based on how last year finished. You don't go back at that point and say he should have been fired after year three or after year five. You evaluate the program at that time. They had a decent finish to the conference season, wins in the conference tournament, an NCAA appearance, a nice win over Louisville, decent class coming in this fall, etc. etc. At that point in time, it looked like the trajectory of the program was an upward track. He had earned a seventh year -- not four games, not eight games -- a full year. What I don't understand is how the same people throw their hands in the air based on any one recruit's decision (Dawson Garcia) or any stretch of three/four games in the non-conference schedule. Let the season play out and then evaluate the program at the end of year seven. It's ridiculous, in my opinion, to consider making a change in December.

I don't think anyone has called for an immediate change. I think we all agree with letting this season progress and evaluate at the end.
Speaking only for myself, I am presently disappointed with how ill prepared our team has looked so far. To have turned a corner is to have at least a .500 record this season. We shall see.

 

[howeda7]

Right now the Gophers look like the 10th or 11th best team in the conference. Whatever the typical 10th or 11th best conference record has historically looked like, if they perform better than that, then Pitino has improved the team as the season's gone on, which is what you want to see. (Last year, 10th/11th place was 7-13.) Since this team is so newcomer-dependent, they almost HAVE to get better than their 4-4 start, just by virtue of getting used to each other, so you have to take that into account.

I'm willing to re-set the bar some (hence .500 instead of make the NCAA's) but not all the way down to to "look better than an 11th place team" just because the team you thought you had doesn't pan out. Especially when your best player might go to the NBA again and your incoming recruits probably aren't instant impact. We have an 8 day stretch in early February where we don't play. We will likely have an idea of what we're looking at by that time. If a 6-14 or 7-13 B1G season seems inevitible, that will probably be the right time to make a move. I'm all for letting the season play out, but as with Monson and Brewster, once it's plainly obvious, you should pull the trigger.

 

[MennoSota]

December could be Pitino's Monson moment. His Waterloo. This team is looking bad in nearly every year facet of the game. He may lose these guys and thus lose his job.

 

[mplarson7]

We lost 3 starters and the top 3 guys off the bench from last year. Outside of Kalscheur and Oturu, every other player is new to the roster.

I expected the season to be down from last year. But I also look at the roster, see the long list of freshmen and sophomores and think....damn, we have a lot of growth for the next 3 years. I fully expect next will be good, the year after even better.

The problem with changing now, we are starting over again. Will quite likely lose all of our recruits, probably some transfers, reset recruiting ties....I don't see a single coach that we could realistically get that would make us winners the moment from stepping in the door.

 

[howeda7]

5-15 would get him fired but we are not going 5-15.

We may not get to 5....

 

[builtbadgers]

Winners at programs like this do not do it the moment they walk in the door but what they do from day one is instill a culture of character, soundness and defense.

 

[howeda7]

We lost 3 starters and the top 3 guys off the bench from last year. Outside of Kalscheur and Oturu, every other player is new to the roster.

I expected the season to be down from last year. But I also look at the roster, see the long list of freshmen and sophomores and think....damn, we have a lot of growth for the next 3 years. I fully expect next will be good, the year after even better.

The problem with changing now, we are starting over again. Will quite likely lose all of our recruits, probably some transfers, reset recruiting ties....I don't see a single coach that we could realistically get that would make us winners the moment from stepping in the door.

Greenlee, Freeman and Ihnen are not the core of a future B1G title contender. They are decent rotation players at best. The two for next year, who knows. But they're not the Fab 2 or anything. Let's not act like we have some bright future ahead that makes this worth giving more time. We're bad and if Oturu leaves, next year will be worse.

 

[scools12]

The problem with changing now, we are starting over again. Will quite likely lose all of our recruits, probably some transfers, reset recruiting ties....I don't see a single coach that we could realistically get that would make us winners the moment from stepping in the door.

Have no clue if the AD will make a change or not but none of this is a reason not to.

 

[howeda7]

December could be Pitino's Monson moment. His Waterloo. This team is looking bad in nearly every year facet of the game. He may lose these guys and thus lose his job.

If we lose the next two, I question how much longer you let it drag on.