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scools12 said:
Have no clue if the AD will make a change or not but none of this is a reason not to.
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You'd be happy with 3 more seasons of bad results and bad recruiting? Answer honestly please.
 

mplarson7 said:
We lost 3 starters and the top 3 guys off the bench from last year. Outside of Kalscheur and Oturu, every other player is new to the roster.

I expected the season to be down from last year. But I also look at the roster, see the long list of freshmen and sophomores and think....damn, we have a lot of growth for the next 3 years. I fully expect next will be good, the year after even better.

The problem with changing now, we are starting over again. Will quite likely lose all of our recruits, probably some transfers, reset recruiting ties....I don't see a single coach that we could realistically get that would make us winners the moment from stepping in the door.
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Last year was a 9-11 season. It was another bottom of the big 10 finish.
 

howeda7 said:
Greenlee, Freeman and Ihnen are not the core of a future B1G title contender. They are decent rotation players at best. The two for next year, who knows. But they're not the Fab 2 or anything. Let's not act like we have some bright future ahead that makes this worth giving more time. We're bad and if Oturu leaves, next year will be worse.
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That's cool, I'll respect your opinion. However, I find myself unable to write off entire college careers for freshmen that have played 9 games.
 

mplarson7 said:
That's cool, I'll respect your opinion. However, I find myself unable to write off entire college careers for freshmen that have played 9 games.
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I'm not writing off their careers. They can be valuable members of a good team. But do you see any of them being the star of a top tier B1G team in 2 years?
 

Goldteam said:
Last year was a 9-11 season. It was another bottom of the big 10 finish.
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Semifinals in B1G tournament, 2 wins at the end of the season over an Elight 8 team, NCAA team with a win in the tournament. Did the season end poorly in your opinion?
 


howeda7 said:
I'm not writing off their careers. They can be valuable members of a good team. But do you see any of them being the star of a top tier B1G team in 2 years?
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I don't know. As I said, I'm not able to predict how the next 3.75 years of their careers will go. I don't have your predictive power.
 

mplarson7 said:
I don't know. As I said, I'm not able to predict how the next 3.75 years of their careers will go. I don't have your predictive power.
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It doesn't take great predictive power to know that marginally rated recruits who barely play as freshman don't go on to be the star of a top 25 team 2 years later at a very high rate.
 

howeda7 said:
It doesn't take great predictive power to know that marginally rated recruits who barely play as freshman don't go on to be the star of a top 25 team 2 years later at a very high rate.
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You literally just posted that you weren't writing off their entire careers, you can't have it both ways sir.
 

mplarson7 said:
You'd be happy with 3 more seasons of bad results and bad recruiting? Answer honestly please.
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There is no way of knowing it would be 3 bad years of results and recruiting. Just like there is no way of knowing if you don’t make a change it will be 3 years of good results and recruiting.
What we do know is Pitino is 30 games under .500 in conference after 6 years. As it stands today he has a very good chance of being 45 games or worse under .500 after this season.
So honestly I’d be happy going in a different direction as the current one is going nowhere.
 



mplarson7 said:
You literally just posted that you weren't writing off their entire careers, you can't have it both ways sir.
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They can be solid rotation players. It's exceedingly unlikely they will be top 3 players on a good team.
 

Never thought I'd say this, but Gophers fans make me want to bang my head against the wall far more than IU fans.
 


howeda7 said:
Greenlee, Freeman and Ihnen are not the core of a future B1G title contender. They are decent rotation players at best. The two for next year, who knows. But they're not the Fab 2 or anything. Let's not act like we have some bright future ahead that makes this worth giving more time. We're bad and if Oturu leaves, next year will be worse.
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This is correct. Get real if you think it will get better next year. Not unless the new freshmen coming in are studs. The other guys already on roster not playing aren’t good or they would be taking minutes from the players on the court right now that aren’t great
 



I'm guessing otura will be gone next year-what do we have left?
 

Also this team here looks like about a 4-6 Big Ten win team. You have Oruro who is good then the rest of the players are average to below average. Gabe is having the season I though he would, a step back. He is a complimentary player and cannot thrive without another strong guard. Carr is not good. I thought he would be much better but he is a lower end big ten guard. He also plays with no sense of urgency. Other than that the rest aren’t even worth mentioning. They are probably 7-9 on most Big Ten benches
 


howeda7 said:
If we lose the next two, I question how much longer you let it drag on.
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So you have mentioned this in a couple threads now. After the next two in December. At the break in February. What would either scenario accomplish? The next coach isn't on the bench right now. I don't think you fire a coach in the middle of the year absent the players quitting on the coach or some scandal. I've seen neither.
 

cjbfbp said:
I don't have a long history as a Gopher fan but I don't think much at all of Pitino's player development. I think his player development has been pretty bad. You don't judge a coach's player development by his best players - you judge that by all the other players. Think of coaches like teachers. Any teacher can have good results with a class full of "A" students but what the teacher does with the lesser students is the true benchmark for the quality of his training program. Top players, like top students, have talent, drive, and a sense of what things to do to improve. Lesser performers don't have as much of those dimensions.

I would argue that a number of players actually regressed under Pitino and others didn't improve nearly as much as you would expect a player to do after playing three or four years of high major basketball. For the most part, his best players like Murphy, Coffey, and Lynch were good when they arrived here (Murphy was the best player on a bad team as a freshman) and they improved about as much as they would have with any coach. Mason improved but he never became the kind of point guard that was very good at making plays for others which is something you really need when you don't have a lot of natural talent on a roster.
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You are 100% correct about the problems with Pitino and it’s why this team will never see sustained success as long as he is the head coach. The development of talent outside his few star players has been nonexistent since he came here. Just look at how routinely bad our role players and bench have been in all 7 of his seasons. Basically when Nate Mason, Reggie Lynch, Jordan Murphy, and Amir Coffey haven’t been on the court (for one reason or another) the results under Pitino have been awful. He can never seem to develop below average players into average players and average players into great players. You either stay the same as when you started or you regress. And the lack of depth has sunk his teams when things like foul trouble, injuries, and suspensions keep his star players out of the game.

I would also add that his in-game coaching ability is severely lacking. He seems to be out-coached in the biggest moments and unable to make adjustments during the game when things start to go south. The infamous 3 on 5 game against Alabama in 2017 being the most quintessential and embarrassing example of this.
 

bga1 said:
Konate got replaced by Lynch- thus the numbers drop.
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The statistic I used to illustrate Konate's offensive regression was Points Per 40 Minutes. That controls for playing time. If you are going to attack an argument, make sure that you first understand the argument.
 

EastCoastGophersFan said:
Basically when Nate Mason, Reggie Lynch, Jordan Murphy, and Amir Coffey haven’t been on the court (for one reason or another) the results under Pitino have been awful. He can never seem to develop below average players into average players and average players into great players. You either stay the same as when you started or you regress. And the lack of depth has sunk his teams when things like foul trouble, injuries, and suspensions keep his star players out of the game.
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I agree 100%. Pitino seems to be incapable of trying any other strategy than squeezing every ounce he can from his top players. That can work well when you have four or five good ones (like 2016-17) but usually won't go so well when you have one or two. That's why I really don't blame Carr much for how he plays. He wasn't a very good shooter as a freshman at Pitt and he isn't a very good one now. But, he has to keep trying to score because that's what you have to do when you're the second best player on a Pitino team. He also is the only guard on the team who seems willing to drive and dish so I'll also give him props for that.
 

cjbfbp said:
I agree 100%. Pitino seems to be incapable of trying any other strategy than squeezing every ounce he can from his top players. That can work well when you have four or five good ones (like 2016-17) but usually won't go so well when you have one or two. That's why I really don't blame Carr much for how he plays. He wasn't a very good shooter as a freshman at Pitt and he isn't a very good one now. But, he has to keep trying to score because that's what you have to do when you're the second best player on a Pitino team. He also is the only guard on the team who seems willing to drive and dish so I'll also give him props for that.
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He has to do more though if this season has any chance of being salvaged. I honestly thought he would be better than he has been. Everyone clamoring for him last year, heck, he would have been a net negative on that team.

He looks as if he has the ability to lead this team, but for whatever reason just can't get it going. Count me as very very disappointed in how he has played thus far.
 


Go Gophs said:
Also this team here looks like about a 4-6 Big Ten win team. You have Oruro who is good then the rest of the players are average to below average. Gabe is having the season I though he would, a step back. He is a complimentary player and cannot thrive without another strong guard. Carr is not good. I thought he would be much better but he is a lower end big ten guard. He also plays with no sense of urgency. Other than that the rest aren’t even worth mentioning. They are probably 7-9 on most Big Ten benches
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I missed yesterday's game. Did we get him some open looks?
 

Pitino has a trend with his BIG record: wild swings while being sub .500.

2014-15: 6-12
2015-16: 2-16
2016-17: 11-7
2017-18: 4-14
2018-19: 9-11
2019-20: ???

I would argue that 6 wins is the best he could do which puts him right back at 2014.
 

I need to echo what some others are saying: let's not write some of these younger players off, including Carr, who's only a sophomore and has some nice abilities. The question, though, rolls back to the OP, which is: can we expect this coaching staff to take these young players and the signed, well-regarded recruits and turn them into wins? Longer term, is it reasonable to expect Pitino will ever dig out from his woeful career record to the point where he's got a lifetime winning conference record or even something other than the worst conference coaching record in school history? I like to be an optimist, but I don't like his chances.

I was one of the bigger supporters of his hire. It was high risk but potentially high reward, and it was implicitly sold by the U and explicitly sold by many on here as something that the U could easily walk away from if it didn't work out, due to his relatively low initial salary and buyout. The problem has been that there's always enough hope that he's about to figure something out and turn some kind of corner that you have to stick with him for another year or three, and the salary and buyout have ballooned through contract extensions. He continues to recruit well enough to provide hope but not well enough to provide wins. This is the classic purgatory river backwater whirlpool that you can't get your kayak out of.

For me, it still comes down to: if we or the U had known that, after 6 years, there would be a 40-70 conference record, one conference winning season record, two NCAA appearances but only one win, no 5-star recruits, and dwindling attendance, would we have made the hire? The answer to that should clearly be no. The U has paid him handsomely and given him every opporunity, including construction of a top-line practice facility. He's not a victim and wouldn't be if he were dumped. There comes a time when you have to try something else. I hate to continue to bring up the yokels to the east, but they had to kiss a lot of frogs before they found princes that could coach. The key is to stop looking at that frog and deceive yourself into seeing a prince.

As has been Coyle's MO, he certainly has a list and is friendly with agents and potential references. He shouldn't make a move until after the season and only if he's got someone in mind who he's relatively sure has what it takes and a good chance at landing them. If those things are true, now's as good a time as any.
 

cjbfbp said:
The statistic I used to illustrate Konate's offensive regression was Points Per 40 Minutes. That controls for playing time. If you are going to attack an argument, make sure that you first understand the argument.
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PP 40 mins is probably the worst stat you could use to justify his regression. He was never suppose to be a major scorer. Rebounding and defensive efficiency would be better for him
 

manderson1984 said:
PP 40 mins is probably the worst stat you could use to justify his regression. He was never suppose to be a major scorer. Rebounding and defensive efficiency would be better for him
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I remember the articles from when he was signed. He was presented as the team's future starter. There should be an expectation that a starter pull his weight as an offensive threat.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I remember the articles from when he was signed. He was presented as the team's future starter. There should be an expectation that a starter pull his weight as an offensive threat.
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So was IW and it didn't work out. Who's presented a career bench guy? Maybe his lack of offensive development is why he wasn't a starter?
 

This roster is an embarrassment. How? I doubt if any coach couldn’t assemble a roster with this little talent. It ain’t the Xs and Os. . Although a little attention to defense wouldn’t hurt when the skill on offense is so limited
 

What bothers me more than the actual results is his demeanor on the sideline. He appears disinterested, seldom showing any emotion except when criticizing his players in the timeouts. Coaching is teaching, not a lot of teaching happening at the U. How many travels did the “big guy” have last night?
 

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